MISSING... But what?

[XXX]

fuck these new instagram only labels. make 30 copies and tell all their friends when it drops in private. then their tape sells out in mere minutes. cut to a month later and they do a photo shoot of the oh so rare tape to a sea of "HOW TO COP?"

where is the pride in ones work they want people to be able to obtain the music??

[WCN]

I guess to be clear, what I'm really talking about is exclusively using instagram to promote or announce things. In that case, it's not about reaching "as many listeners as possible", it's about lazily reaching a certain audience - namely those who have smartphones and fuck with instagram. I'm not suggesting making things intentionally difficult or obscure. I'm not saying the only real way to eat is to grow your own vegetables, hunt your own food and cook it over a wood fire. But I would assert, without even needing to rationalize or justify why, that eating real home cooked food most of the time is the way to go. Maybe eating McDonalds (Instagram) once in a while too, but if you're drinking that Huel powder for all your meals, you've lost me.

[holy ghost]

I guess to be clear, what I'm really talking about is exclusively using instagram to promote or announce things.

This I agree with 100% - and to be clear I don't think we're arguing here at all or at least I'm not trying to be argumentative - and I think part of this argument is not entirely the social media platform but the intentionally limiting of things to create a "buzz" that often accompanies it. Obviously it's impossible to estimate how many copies you can move and no one wants to be sitting at home with a spare bedroom full of unsold harsh noise tapes but yeah, where there's a mad scramble to buy that oh so limited new tape and there's 15 copies of something 100+ people are going to want that just seems so trashy to me, like are you going for the maximum follower count or are you releasing something because you're passionate about it?

[Theodore]

I once had a FB account. It was easy to understand this thing consumes my time without offering anything back, but not so easy to delete my account. At least i was resisting to go with the 'flood' , to join Twitter , IG , who knows what platform tomorrow ... Thanks to the guys who reported me and my account needed ID for reactivation. It was what i needed, a push out. And never looked back. The only thing i may miss is the not-so-frequent posts of 4-5 people that their taste i appreciate. But i can do without it in order to avoid an ocean of worthless, meaningless shit.

You know what ? I dont think that i dont use social media led me to miss any important or rare release i needed. Curious what's this the so important , so 'hot' limited release that in order to not miss it you tolerate all this shit. You say it's shit, i agree. 'To not miss that release' sounds like a cheap excuse to me, to yourself. Truth is it's addictive. So if that helps anyone, my experience is that you wont miss anything at all ! Just shut it down, if you see it as a problem.

Bands / Labels : I dont get the concept of 'promotion' , really. The only thing that really promotes you is your 'product' . Do you think you sell copies cause of social media spamming / advertisement ? Maybe once. If your product is not worthy, if you are delivering bad music, bad dubs etc. you wont go far longer than the 20-30 fools [how many?] that bite the bait and they have created a micro-hype for themselves only, that has nothing to do with music or even the 'bigger scene' ! - If your product is worthy, a blogspot page, a newsletter, an announcement are enough. Send your demo / a sample to labels and distros. Dont worry, if you are good you will be noticed sooner or -not so much- later.

What am i trying to say here ? That, as others said too, social media / bandcamp etc. ARE NOT the necessary evil ! Evil maybe, depending how to use them. Necessary, definetely not !

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Bands / Labels : I dont get the concept of 'promotion' , really. The only thing that really promotes you is your 'product' . Do you think you sell copies cause of social media spamming / advertisement ?  Send your demo / a sample to labels and distros. Dont worry, if you are good you will be noticed sooner or -not so much- later.

What am i trying to say here ? That, as others said too, social media / bandcamp etc. ARE NOT the necessary evil ! Evil maybe, depending how to use them. Necessary, definetely not !

I share your opinion. People forgot what was International Cassette Network which offered altarnate way of distributing records. Publishers (including me) forgot that an "independent" circle must change a paradigm relation between publisher and consumer, must change ethos of publisher, must change mainstream's tools and methods in creating products and distrybuting them to consumers. Building anything on rotten and detrimental fundaments is a way to nowhere.

[JLIAT]

So some use FB, IG, Paypal as necessary evils, whilst others see it as an evil to be avoided. I haven't read anyone saying its a great vehicle for promotion and selling merchandise. (I''m not). My question re multinational mega industry sponsorship of Noise, Red Bull (with which Frans DeWard was critical) went unanswered. There is obviously in the Arts / Humanities often a left wing critique of Capitalism, hence the problem of using such resources. (Easy to avoid critique by 'ends justifies means' – or more recently glib irony – like the K foundation burning £1 million...) And those who do could be criticised for using terms like 'independent' and 'underground' when they are – in using these – not. (or am I saying that is wrong – it is possible to become self sufficient- drop out, go off the radar – but why?) OK, Art, western art from when the term 'Artist' became used, Artist rather than craftsman, Artist as in the idea of the person of Genius having something special to bring, to make, began in the Renaissance. You know Michelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci and the others. How, and why? Funded by the Medici family, a ruthless bunch of bankers. (the scene from the third man and cuckoo clock). No different in music, but with the 'Artist' the tune was not decided by the paymaster. Does anyone here think the (their) music should be dictated by others? There is a lot of history here, Van Gough signed his pictures 'Vincent' because he thought Americans (potential buyers – though he sold nothing) couldn't pronounce Van Gough, but Impressionism sold well in the USA, unlike Europe's more conservative tastes. Famous scandals regarding Rothko and his gallery, and of course the C.I.A.s support of 'Modern Art' during the cold war. (Stockhausen did well). My point. I  have non.

Or maybe this, doesn't everyone (most) justify what they do?

bad (adj.) c. 1200, "inferior in quality;" early 13c., "wicked, evil, vicious," a mystery word with no apparent relatives in other languages.

"Not an individual endowed with good will and a natural capacity for thought, but an individual who does not manage to think either naturally or conceptually. Only such an individual is without presuppositions. Only such an individual effectively begins and effectively repeats." - Giles Deleuze, Difference and Repetition, Continuum 1994 p. 166.


"I'm Bad!" - Michael Jackson -1987.

[Strangecross]

So some use FB, IG, Paypal as necessary evils, whilst others see it as an evil to be avoided. I haven't read anyone saying its a great vehicle for promotion and selling merchandise. (I''m not). My question re multinational mega industry sponsorship of Noise, Red Bull (with which Frans DeWard was critical) went unanswered. There is obviously in the Arts / Humanities often a left wing critique of Capitalism, hence the problem of using such resources. (Easy to avoid critique by 'ends justifies means' – or more recently glib irony – like the K foundation burning £1 million...) And those who do could be criticised for using terms like 'independent' and 'underground' when they are – in using these – not. (or am I saying that is wrong – it is possible to become self sufficient- drop out, go off the radar – but why?) OK, Art, western art from when the term 'Artist' became used, Artist rather than craftsman, Artist as in the idea of the person of Genius having something special to bring, to make, began in the Renaissance. You know Michelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci and the others. How, and why? Funded by the Medici family, a ruthless bunch of bankers. (the scene from the third man and cuckoo clock). No different in music, but with the 'Artist' the tune was not decided by the paymaster. Does anyone here think the (their) music should be dictated by others? There is a lot of history here, Van Gough signed his pictures 'Vincent' because he thought Americans (potential buyers – though he sold nothing) couldn't pronounce Van Gough, but Impressionism sold well in the USA, unlike Europe's more conservative tastes. Famous scandals regarding Rothko and his gallery, and of course the C.I.A.s support of 'Modern Art' during the cold war. (Stockhausen did well). My point. I  have non.

Or maybe this, doesn't everyone (most) justify what they do?

bad (adj.) c. 1200, "inferior in quality;" early 13c., "wicked, evil, vicious," a mystery word with no apparent relatives in other languages.

"Not an individual endowed with good will and a natural capacity for thought, but an individual who does not manage to think either naturally or conceptually. Only such an individual is without presuppositions. Only such an individual effectively begins and effectively repeats." - Giles Deleuze, Difference and Repetition, Continuum 1994 p. 166.


"I'm Bad!" - Michael Jackson -1987.

I think when there were some large sponsorships with noise artists a lot of the response was-  Good, these people who have made music I liked are getting money.

I think you are bringing in the idea of 'high society' vs underground art. personally I don't want to grant a company like redbull any merit, sort of like Oskar's idea that IG is a cringed at platform. But you can take rebull's money if they want to act like they support the underground, why not. Same goes for Instagram.

It is not really the same thing as bankers funding painters and sculptures, except maybe from the artists perspective, if they take something like that on but I don't think so!

Social media is certainly a place where people's needs and desires are exploited for market research and implementation. The less you play into it however, I do not think much of you is scathed. No smartphone, no buying everything you need online, clickbait etc. It really is sort of a 'spiritual realm' or spiritual void,
It is more the power you give it more it can be depressing. More of a Thee Psychic Bible look at the internet than a 'punk rock' mindset. Why give this shit the status of 'evil'???? its more pathetic, not worthy of such a term. Like some satanic panic - oh my god paypal is the devil!!! In terms of class struggle, yes maybe it is evil, but releasing a noise tape, I don't give a shit.

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

Sorry I don't really know how to do this so I'm replying 3 times in a row:

Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time.

I don't think this specific forum should be the be-all-end-all way to share and discuss information, but I think we have options and need to be purposeful and decisive in designing "the kind of world we want to live in" so to speak, and rejecting that shit should be on the top of the list.

Morality interests me little with this.

Im proud of me and my bandmates success with it. Like I mentioned earlier, never fit in that well in one form so we made it work another way. I think its fascinating how my current fan base doesn't exist on this forum but it does on IG. To say that its not real, well then my guy I don't know how to explain all that expensive modular gear I got these days.

I'd rather dominate then be moral in the shadows living by a code thats looking to be outdated.

[Zeno Marx]

Is this still on topic?

I remember when Bastard Noise took some heat for being at some Relapse show that had big sponsorship.  Phil Easter, on the Tumorlist, and of Stone Glass Steel, used to be loud and proud that he wanted bigger monies involved in experimental music.  He didn't see it as a sell out, but as an indication of success and good artists shouldn't have to starve in this community.  You know, a just reward and the means to get even more and greater things created.  That's absolutely not verbatim and not the type of words he used.  It's been a long time now, but I do remember him adamantly advocating for "give us the money!"  The end would have justified the means of Paypal/social media, at least if I remember the argument some-what accurately.  You work with the tools at hand and don't get bogged down in the rigmarole.  Not sure how fees would have played into it all.  Yeah, definitely no longer on topic.

I remember Ben/Zabriskie Point talking about how they used to have these mail bags you could stuff full and pay like $3 to ship internationally from the USA.  I can't remember what class of mail that was called.  He'd jam hundreds of CDs in those bags for trade and pay almost nothing to ship them.  I remember being jealous, and we were only paying like $3 to ship 5 or 10 7"s.  A different time.  Different tools.  Always changing.

Social media changed this culture, but I'm not sure it is robbing it of anything.  Just different.  Maybe.

[Duncan]

Sorry I don't really know how to do this so I'm replying 3 times in a row:

Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time.

I don't think this specific forum should be the be-all-end-all way to share and discuss information, but I think we have options and need to be purposeful and decisive in designing "the kind of world we want to live in" so to speak, and rejecting that shit should be on the top of the list.

Morality interests me little with this.

Im proud of me and my bandmates success with it. Like I mentioned earlier, never fit in that well in one form so we made it work another way. I think its fascinating how my current fan base doesn't exist on this forum but it does on IG. To say that its not real, well then my guy I don't know how to explain all that expensive modular gear I got these days.

I'd rather dominate then be moral in the shadows living by a code thats looking to be outdated.

That last sentence is definitely the most intense language I've ever seen used to describe having an instagram account.

[JLIAT]

Sorry I don't really know how to do this so I'm replying 3 times in a row:

Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time.

I don't think this specific forum should be the be-all-end-all way to share and discuss information, but I think we have options and need to be purposeful and decisive in designing "the kind of world we want to live in" so to speak, and rejecting that shit should be on the top of the list.

Morality interests me little with this.

Im proud of me and my bandmates success with it. Like I mentioned earlier, never fit in that well in one form so we made it work another way. I think its fascinating how my current fan base doesn't exist on this forum but it does on IG. To say that its not real, well then my guy I don't know how to explain all that expensive modular gear I got these days.

I'd rather dominate then be moral in the shadows living by a code thats looking to be outdated.

That last sentence is definitely the most intense language I've ever seen used to describe having an instagram account.

It's very Nietzschean (artist as overman)  - but i guess Nietzsche never got around to opening an account ;-)

Is this still on topic?

Kind of,  it got me thinking. One of the things missing is a 'lack'.  Before cassette tape there was no easy way to release material. Vinyl mastering, plates and minimum pressing, - very expensive - same for CD. Then we had CDR, and of course the internet, mp3. Also recording was difficult multitracking and editing. So what we have today is the potential to release material for free, create and edit on cheap PCs, or even smartphones. And as for paypal, before to transfer money out of the UK the banks charged a hell of a lot.

So - we lack the poverty of resources.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Please save this thread Mikko

Some moderation was done. Topic including the TG / Art / avantgarde / etc is found:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=10778.0

I know it starts kind of middle of nowhere, but some of early related posts were also related to this "Missing... but what" topic.

Some posts were deleted, which were no more relevant when topic has been splitted.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

many (including me) see this more as a Freak Animal / though guy noise forum, not as a regular noise forum for everyone. But yes, voicing different views and opinions is a necessary one and also why everybody should do their own thing and not be limited by the imaginary boundaries of a genre or aesthetic created or envisioned by someone else.

I am familiar with this being quite common view, although I don't necessarily see it would have to be so.

To my knowledge, there are lots of people who appreciate the "dark side of noise" (so to say)- on level of admiring work of artists etc, but at this moment absolutely hesitate to discuss of it in public, due not wanting it to surface in form of screen captures and gossip even years later. They rather opt private message groups with people they know, than public discussion. It is of course good way too, but may reduce the dissemination of information. All that knowledge and information that could have resulted even interesting printed zine, will disappear. Does it really matter - is of course different debate.

Instead of engagement on here we have people who basically await the "leaders" to make topics and then they discuss them.

Which is partially true and also unfortunate. I would certainly like to see topics like "best chocolate monk releases", "recommended Tomutonttu albums" or such, emerge. There is absolutely nothing that stops opening new topics on other things than so called tough guy noise. It was original intent of SI to try merge the splintered and fragmented things, to be the "scene" where Sudden Infant & Genocide Organ would co-exist side by side, so to say with using known names as example. While it seemed to be vaguely fruitful goal 10-15 years ago, I don't see potential for that anymore. At least not in wider scale. Locally and in some other small framing, this of course comes out naturally.

As example of something good, there is FB group "Noise now playing". Some of the same things I post there, I re-post in SI playlist topic. That platform allows entirely different kind of possibilities. Most of all pictures and casual short comments, that are good on post comments, but would be awful distractions within forum discussions. Being spam free, self promotion free, and drama escalates only rarely (as far as I know), I like it. This also underlines that I do not claim or even intent SI forum to be the "main hub of noise". It would be great if there would be growing number of other forums or good discussion groups. Network is ideal. One chooses where to read and write, and cross-over of audience without doubt happens. It's the network that builds the "scene", not one place alone.

[ekastaka]

I agree with one of the first posts in the thread regarding the use of streaming platforms such as and especially Bandcamp. It is starting to become more common to see entire releases uploaded months ahead of any physical release and in some cases there isn't a physical release. I think such platforms can be useful when using it to host preview tracks for upcoming releases, but to the aforementioned practice seems like such a bastardization of the artistic process. I can't fathom putting months of energy into material only to lazily click "upload". The art and packaging is as much of a statement as the audio. This trend is very much indicative of high time preference.

This all leads to something I think is "missing" in not just industrial/noise, but music/art in general - mystique. With the advent and acceleration of the internet + social media, the wall between artist and art has been eroded. Nothing is mysterious anymore and we are constantly the object and subject of overexposure. I don't really place blame on artists because this is something you have to very consciously avoid in order to maintain even a fraction of the mystique that projects enjoyed in the past. Everyone and everything has a face now. You know the intentions, politics, lifestyle, etc. of X artist. Whereas art in the past represented some sort of hidden and exaggerated id of the ego, can you still say that now? Or does the artist's exploration of transgression or extremity seem like a facade now when you know they are a tolerant individual with all the right beliefs held by our all pervasive progressive order? It's akin to breaking the fourth wall when you have black metal artists come out to say "black lives matter". Say what you will of a project like Heretic Grail churning out five releases a month, but I think the approach of this project was admirable. It exemplified the mystique I'm alluding to. And to be clear, I'm not necessarily referring to anonymity.

[WCN]

Morality interests me little with this.

Well it's an inherently moral discussion, so if that's your moral position on it, then you're doing right by you and there's little to discuss. I do think you're selling yourself short by saying no one "here" is interested in your work and that your audience exists exclusively on instagram. I also think it's great to make money off of one's work, so if you've been able to make some good cash, then more power to you. Still, what you've described here is a far-cry from "domination" as an artist by any definition in my mind.