MISSING... But what?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I was reading the other topic about other music forums, and conclusion was that not that much out there at the moment. Few places were mentioned, butcomment was "Sadly though IMO none offer any actual discussions".

I often face nearly identical discussions, where core seems to be, that something is missing, but what exactly... is hard to say.

Lets say,
-Someone is looking lists of new releases, but concludes that has no idea what this stuff is, and there is nothing that triggers interest. Look to old catalogue in other hand seems like hundreds of mind boggling items, even if you don't really know what it is.

-Someone is looking for new magazine, but there doesn't seem to be any. If there is, it won't cover the niche one wants.

-Or people featured do not appear such "personalities" as in past. Instead of noise heroes and industrial protagonists, you got... well, other types.

-Noise festivals that used to be almost taken for granted... but where now?

-Or gig situation in Finland. There used to be flow on foreign artists playing gigs and Finnish shows all the time, but now.. different? One can still see more gig announcements than one can possibly visit, but I've seen many conclude that things are "not what it used to be", hah.

etc etc

Change is both inevitable and mandatory, but tends to also create feeling that something is missing. Something crucial. I don't think any of the things mentioned are really true. It is rather illusion created by certain things.

Yet, the feeling is of course there. Is there something one would miss, not merely in nostalgic sense, but feel that genre without THAT loses some formerly intrinsic quality? And is there anything what could be done about it? And whether this change is in the genre or rather the observer?

[JLIAT]

You make some interesting points which I can agree with, "something is missing"...  and i've given this some thought... so (IMO) firstly i'd say what is missing is 'novelty'. When 'noise', (and the same goes for PE, Industrial et al) first broke it was novel, new, surprising and for some shocking.  This in any genre cannot last, and so I think is missing. For instance the poorly photocopied cassette inlays, etc. soon became not new but de rigour. Following on from this two other things I think occurred, firstly not only was the graphics at first 'radical' to become a (mere?) style, so to the music / noise. Even to the extent of the "How can I get Xs sound, what gear to use?" Etc. - Questions. The maybe less obvious was a kind of post event reaction, that is wanting to re-musicalize. There was also a certain 'band-wagoning' of non-noise acts not so much re-packaging, but re-naming their work as 'noise' and re introducing elements of musicality, in particular, skill and meaning... so diluting noise's 'radicalism' (I must repeat IMO). And finally and perhaps more contentiously noise around and just  post the millennium found itself as a subject for academic interest, witnessed by such as Hegarty's book of 2007 and others. And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response. Which is a type of almost 'religious' fundamentalism, and a religion without theology becomes sterile, bland and mere empty gesture... which maybe accounts for its decline amongst some who still see merit in the likes of Buddhism etc.

[Japsi]

I would tend to agree with the points raised by both of you. Having been away from noise for a long time, the whole field now seems to lack the vitality it had even ten years ago.

JLIAT mentioned an absence of 'novelty', which seems like the best term to use. It can easily seem like everything that can be done, has been done when it comes to noise. The glut of imitators and bandwagon jumpers doesn't help matters, since they only appear interested in trying to replicate the sounds that have gone before.

Personally, I still see noise as being the greatest way of finding novelty in sound.

The question, as far as I see it at the moment, is how can we bring back that freshness, vitality and novelty?

[Bloated Slutbag]

And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response.

A hard sell there, I think. Specific examples or I'm not buying.

[JLIAT]

And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response.

A hard sell there, I think. Specific examples or I'm not buying.

"Really my rudeness is pretty much just saying Cunt and motherfucker or posting a corny video in reply to something serious."

[Zeno Marx]

And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response. Which is a type of almost 'religious' fundamentalism, and a religion without theology becomes sterile, bland and mere empty gesture...

This pretty much describes the planet right now, and with everything interconnected at such a highly pervasive level --with social media, 24/7 news cycles, etc-- there's no hiding from anything.  You'd have to be disconnected to a great level to possibly avoid that all-powerful mentality.  I guess what I'm saying is that there are few pockets hidden from, or shielded away from, the empty gestures and anti-intellectual climate of our world as a whole.  Our politics.  Or like the stuff happening in NASCAR that mimics things in the 1950s and before.  Negative, violent reaction rather than progressive, creative, and forward-thinking.  The short game rather than the long game.  It's interesting that one aspect about shortening attention spans and fast-moving technology is that we get fixated on trying to be in the moment.  The distractions are so powerful and many that we realize our minds are racing about nothing, so we desire and fight to be present right now, and in possibly being so successful in being present in this exact moment right now, we then have little capacity to imagine forward.  Like any addict.  Fucking phones and the Apple drugs.

[theotherjohn]

Maybe a parallel question we should be asking ourselves is not just what is missing in noise, but what is now routine in noise? I would contend that if you're going through the motions when it comes to making, purchasing, listening, discovering or discussing noise, then it goes against the principles of the genre itself. If the only methods you've had of accessing this genre for the past 10 years, either as a spectator or a producer, is by turning on a power source, clicking a mouse/keyboard and navigating it via a screen, you need to switch your methods up. I'm not necessarily saying that noise should return to the physical methods of the past, but it definitely needs to go beyond the repetitive and uniform. Noise should rub you the wrong way, be out of place in your surroundings and provoke the senses. Music is adaptive but noise is maladaptive.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

(...)shortening attention spans and fast-moving technology is that we get fixated on trying to be in the moment.  The distractions are so powerful and many that we realize our minds are racing about nothing, so we desire and fight to be present right now, and in possibly being so successful in being present in this exact moment right now, we then have little capacity to imagine forward. (...)

Not 100% what I think, but, I think there is that lack of perception. Caused by so much things of history get lumped to be 1 thing, and today there is none of that. Lets say, someone would conclude "there was this great time when magazines like Bananafish and ALAP came out, there are no longer good magazines like that". This is fact. There is no magazines like that now. But fact is also, that there never really was except very precise moment when issue came.

Or lets say, one imagines what a great festival was this one particular happening or bunch of them. Yet, those were isolated incidents within decades of time. Fact that this year is nothing, barely makes this year less than countless of other years.

That makes me appreciate even as simple topics as "good harsh noise right now".

This year. Perhaps even this MONTH, I honestly believe, there has emerged probably best harsh noise tape ever done in Finland. It's a bold statement. I ain't saying it will revolutionize genre itself. That is perhaps only flaw. It is harsh noise. Someone may conclude it is just the same old. I just do not agree.
Greatness of material certainly gives it validation of vitality of genre and possibilities. You can still, on monthly basis, discover new item better than many older classics one stubbornly considers "classic". Only missing quality is indeed novelty! I personally do not really value novelty high. It is nearly worthless quality to look for, actually.

I have heard REALLY high % of noise made in Finland, yet I can still conclude that that was fucking brilliant. Project being The New Boyfriends. Probably not the name that will enable to sell a lot, haha.
Not to mention for example new Nuori Veri tape. I listened that multiple times before, but I think I listened it 5 times today, and would say if something should be "a thing", that could be. You know, tape that is remembered. Something people are still talking decade later - "do you remember back in good ol' days when Nuori Veri tape on Aussaat came out", haha...
Many finn projects did actually their best material in recent times. I just don't think it will "register" in any public consciousness that this is the case.

I also have feeling that this could be true in case of many current USA harsh noise releases. They may lack some qualities of the best of old noise, BUT, there are so many releases one hears and could wonder if we are actually in golden age of noise without realizing it? This is something what is sort of missing. Awareness of situation. I have hard time to really pinpoint or even focus the text - yet also that is kind of related. Something is missing, ... but what?




As for the "anti-intellectual response" or whatever, one can't deny its existence in way that Jliat describes.
However, for me, it slightly disappointing when "intellectual" is used as synonym of specific politics OR etiquette of dialogue. Not to relating to ability to think and understand things, especially complicated ideas. It is fairly crucial in noise/industrial, and it seems also to be of element that is missing far too often.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Maybe a parallel question we should be asking ourselves is not just what is missing in noise, but what is now routine in noise? I would contend that if you're going through the motions when it comes to making, purchasing, listening, discovering or discussing noise, then it goes against the principles of the genre itself.

This is good. That said, I know one of the routines in noise is - that I will start to type manifest. This is consciously being avoided - whether it has been for good or bad, who knows. Yet it feels already as is, I'd rather see other inputs on subject matter than my own, hah..

Anyways, I am tempted to discuss about thing I have discussed privately with many friends: Possibilities of noise in concrete, physical experience, but NOT commercial one. I know, that for my label or distribution to exists, it has to be what it is. But noise band, or artist or release in general. Sometimes it seems as if one could not even imagine anymore other way of existing, than business transaction? There is barely small enough artist or band, that there wouldn't be big cartel. That main reason of existence of release is commodity rather than communication. I fully acknowledge this may be lack of perception. Yet for years I have discovered ways other than what constitutes as "part of music business".  Something I sense, was integral part of older noise & industrial.
Many things flourish from infra of "noise professionals". That is not problem. Problem seems if everything somehow exists in form of "noise professionals" - basically merchants.

[Theodore]

Todays noise is not missing quality for sure. Guys who do it good, either be newcomers or veterans, release stuff that stands by any standards, though i cannot say that will be classified as classics in the future cause at the end how many classics a genre can have ? The first ones have the advantage and the priviledge, rightfuly !

Maybe the answer is not general, but we have to ask what we miss, each one of us, and see if there is something in common. For guys who are here from the beginning -lets say 90s- , active, with interest in, i guess while 30 years involved speak for their passion, it's hard to not get tired at some point, to feel fulfilled, that they have seen it all. And to feel they miss those more enthousiastic days, that new things were happening / created, and when even the process fueled this enthousiasm even more ! - Then you had only your collection, and your friends' . You had to write letters, to ask, go to post office, to wait more, etc. This is physical involvement ! And makes things more valueable ! - I guess there was this feeling of belonging, of true underground, of creation, of discovery ... Today noise is underground hidden in plain sight. Almost everything a click away.

I wasnt here from the beginning, not even close ! In fact if it wasnt internet -which i blame for what is 'missing' - i probably wouldnt know there is such thing as noise at all ! Not here i live, not then. - While older guys in noise may miss what they lived in the past, i miss what i missed ! - Cause i am old enough to have lived pre-internet times in my teens, to remember how it is to collect money, to go to the city to the record stores, come back and play the things you bought. The only things you could listen, your collection. - Now too many 'distractions' . I struggle to focus, really. Too much information, too much music at 'hand' , too much of everything ! That all seem ephemeral, for daily consumption ... This hasnt to do only with noise ofcource. - I try to balance, to slow down, to give time, to focus, but it's hard ...

Old times were more 'meaningful' .

[Balor/SS1535]

only things you could listen, your collection. - Now too many 'distractions' . I struggle to focus, really. Too much information, too much music at 'hand' , too much of everything ! That all seem ephemeral, for daily consumption ... This hasnt to do only with noise ofcource. - I try to balance, to slow down, to give time, to focus, but it's hard ...

Old times were more 'meaningful' .

I agree with this sentiment.  I find that when listening to music online, especially noise/p.e., I have a really hard time focusing on it.  I think that the reason might be that in the back of my mind is the thought that I could be listening to something else.  The ease of simply swithching between tracks on youtube, bandcamp, etc. makes this very easy to do.  The pressure (I guess you could call it that) distracts me from what is going on in what I am listening to.

However, when listening to music on a physical format (it doesn't really matter which) - even if it is the same music that I had been listening to half-heatedly online - I am able to focus and immerse myself.

[Zeno Marx]

Being deemed a classic is a common discussion.  I doubt I've been on a music board that didn't ask it.  I think that label may have been more readily earned in the past, but the key there is:  earned.  Now all we have to do is define that, or any other term you'd like to use.  I've absolutely heard stuff in the past 10-15 years I feel is a classic.  That has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with my mindset.  Then, others have to arrive at that same conclusion, because without cultural agreement on some level, I don't think it can qualify as a classic.  If no agreement, it's just a favorite of mine or whoever.  Metaphorically speaking, it didn't hurt that in the distant past, nearly everyone in the community, whether being in the city or out in the surrounding farmlands, heard that particular album.  Things weren't as fragmented,  with 1000+ copies, and with fewer makers (though, I don't know how much weight I'd give to that variable); we were all ingesting the same information.  It's a lot more probable for a group to come to a conclusion if everyone has experienced it, and that larger group also gives that conclusion greater weight.

But back again, it's like politics or anything else in life.  The more fragmented and sheltered within our own groups we become, the less shared experience there is.  Monocultures are rarely healthy or good.  Eventually, it lacks integrity.  The subset can deem something classic, but that label can't likely withstand the scrutiny of the greater community.  Basic stuff, really.  But I think that is where we are now.

[PTM Jim]

Going to read this all when I have a good second, just got a chance to go through the first 3 posts.

I think to go along with the "novelty" point, one of the major hurting factors in noise is things like Bandcamp and Soundcloud. To me experiencing noise is a big selling point. I don't really think noise should be listened to like music so simply doing nothing more than posting releases for download completely devalue it as a full "experience" and just seems lazy to me.

[Japsi]

They may lack some qualities of the best of old noise, BUT, there are so many releases one hears and could wonder if we are actually in golden age of noise without realizing it? This is something what is sort of missing. Awareness of situation. I have hard time to really pinpoint or even focus the text - yet also that is kind of related. Something is missing, ... but what?

It would be unlikely that anyone living through any nostalgic 'golden age' would have experienced it as such. At the time, most of the people we consider to be the prime movers of PE or noise were just kids. They were largely non-musicians who wanted to make their own version of music, and they used what they had available to create it. They had passion, fire and the will to do something completely contrary to what existed in the mainstream. It's only in retrospect that we acknowledge the importance of their work.

Nowadays, we're paralyzed by choice when it comes to creating our own music. The same plethora of possibilities has also allowed for complete morons to release utter tripe, thus muddying the water for genuine, committed artists. We take so much for granted that, to our influences, would have been either inaccessible or unimaginable, e.g. something as simple as a DAW vs. an old Tascam 2-track and bouncing down tracks. Even more bizarre when you think about it: We try to emulate sonic processes that would have been unwanted when our noisy forebears were working, e.g. wow and flutter, tape hiss, etc.

Beyond that though, the current cultural climate most certainly stifles the sorts of primal expressions we would have seen in these circles in the past. No longer can edgy artwork or lyrical content be put out there, unless you don't mind losing your entire future due to the baying, imbecilic mob. It's not even that it's necessary to noise for these elements to be included, but we should have the freedom to do so and to hell with the feelings of fools. Honest, sincere expression is what art is all about, and if that expression involves screaming about hating x, y or z then have at it.

There's definitely that 'something' missing, but I suspect that it's a variety of factors at play.

- No freedom of expression;
- The dilution of the essence of noise...or something less wanky, but in that direction;
- Choice Paralysis/Shitflood of sub-par 'artists';
- Too much copycat'ing and trying to repeat what has gone before.

Interesting to see what others are thinking, but I do agree that we could well be in a 'golden age' for noise.

[Bloated Slutbag]

And even more contentiously this created IMO (esp. in the USA) a certain anti-intellectual response.

A hard sell there, I think. Specific examples or I'm not buying.

"Really my rudeness is pretty much just saying Cunt and motherfucker or posting a corny video in reply to something serious."

Lazy reading on my part (or is that the point?). I'd somehow thought you were going noise specific. The argument could of course be made, I'm just not the one to make it.