MISSING... But what?

[Strangecross]

ok so just make another thread about how its really obvious that the shared experience of the conception of the industrial genre is obviously subjective

[Andrew McIntosh]

But I just don't think I can emphasize enough how much wood that initial whanging stirred up.

And maybe I'm too easy to please, but I'm going to sneak into the end of this sentence that, since I first rolled into this shit however many moons ago till now, nothing has ever felt to me to be missing.

From life, yes. Noise, no.

In years to come I'll be referencing both of these quotes.

[WCN]

Please save this thread Mikko

[totalblack]

Please save this thread Mikko

[totalblack]

Back to the original topic, although I agree that something feels missing, I think that the noise & industrial scene is stronger currently than it has been in the last few years. The main thing that I've noticed in the last 15+ years is the fragmentation into micro-scenes and communities that wasn't as present before. Now you have distinct audiences for harsh noise wall, ultra-offensive crude PE, euro style heavy electronics, Macronympha worship American noise, ambient field recording tape music, etc.. and these audiences have a lot of division between them.

I saw a bill from 2007 posted the other day:
Air Conditioning
Mammal
Paranoid Time
Cadaver In Drag
Bloodyminded

That's a HUGELY dynamic lineup, none of the acts sound anything like each other, but the entire thing makes sense. It's rare for these kind of events to happen anymore. I know this has been touched upon earlier in the thread, and I'm uncertain of how things were in Europe during previous decades, but attending shows in USA\Canada during the '00s was a lot more of a trip than it seems now. You'd have shows with one noise act, a punk band and then Lightning Bolt. Or for example No Fun Fest throwing everything you could possibly fit under the umbrella of 'experimental music' into one massive weekend. Or have Bastard Noise, The Endless Blockade, and The Rita all playing on the same night. Lots of crossover and diverse crowds. Attending Industrial\Noise fests in recent years, I can normally tell that I'm in the youngest 10% of the audience, and I'm in my mid 30s. The increasingly insular micro-scenes of noise and industrial don't attract much new blood, which is needed to keep things exciting and fresh.

I do think that things are getting better however, due to institutions of the last 20-30+ years like Tesco, RRR, Freak Animal, Hospital, Cold Spring, Self Abuse etc still being active there's also new labels\distros\shops like Cloister, Dead Gods, WCN, Skeleton Dust, Scream & Writhe, Fusty Cunt and New Forces that are really getting significantly stronger and bigger as time goes on. The lack of new print media is a bit sad, but makes sense based on the gravitation towards the internet for most written word. I travelled playing and attending shows a lot in 2019 and there's definitely cities in Europe and the US that are still able to attract healthy crowds. Just my personal take on things, and I'm guilty of occasionally waxing poetic on how things were better back in the day, but I also don't think they are in a particularly rough shape currently.

[Balor/SS1535]

The main thing that I've noticed in the last 15+ years is the fragmentation into micro-scenes and communities that wasn't as present before. Now you have distinct audiences for harsh noise wall, ultra-offensive crude PE, euro style heavy electronics, Macronympha worship American noise, ambient field recording tape music, etc.. and these audiences have a lot of division between them.

Even though the loss of print media in favor of the internet has its bad sides (not that I have read zines), a definite benefit of the internet has been in providing an easier means for people to connect with these scenes.  I know that some people here are critical of easy identification/access, and I guess it causes some of the mystique to disappear.  However, I am thankful for it.

[New Forces]

Agree with what Brett said above. I've been working on an upcoming issue of the New Forces zine and I wrote about some of my favorite Robedoor releases from the early period of the band (a drone/noise band that has since morphed into something different). That particular flavor of noise seems to be way less prevalent than it was 10-15 years ago (and maybe didn't appeal to a lot of people on this board) - bands similar to Robedoor, Emeralds, Yellow Swans, Burning Star Core and so on... drone-based stuff that was fully part of a "noise" underground, stocked in distros, limited cassette releases, shows alongside "harsh" acts, and so on... Seems like a lot of artists in that zone aged into academic sound art or techno and it wasn't replaced with a new generation that could sit comfortably alongside some of the harsher stuff. Or maybe it still exists and is just totally separate.

[PTM Jim]

I saw a bill from 2007 posted the other day:
Air Conditioning
Mammal
Paranoid Time
Cadaver In Drag
Bloodyminded

That's a HUGELY dynamic lineup, none of the acts sound anything like each other, but the entire thing makes sense. It's rare for these kind of events to happen anymore. I know this has been touched upon earlier in the thread, and I'm uncertain of how things were in Europe during previous decades, but attending shows in USA\Canada during the '00s was a lot more of a trip than it seems now. You'd have shows with one noise act, a punk band and then Lightning Bolt. Or for example No Fun Fest throwing everything you could possibly fit under the umbrella of 'experimental music' into one massive weekend. Or have Bastard Noise, The Endless Blockade, and The Rita all playing on the same night. Lots of crossover and diverse crowds. Attending Industrial\Noise fests in recent years, I can normally tell that I'm in the youngest 10% of the audience, and I'm in my mid 30s. The increasingly insular micro-scenes of noise and industrial don't attract much new blood, which is needed to keep things exciting and fresh.

This was actually pretty common, especially in Chicago up until at least 2016. I remember a show from 2012 or 2013 that was:
Bongripper (Doom Metal)
Winters In Osaka (drone)
Deterge (PE)
Sea Of Shit (grindcore)
Absolutely completely different sounds all around. And that was a very good thing. I've always thought it was a good idea to put bands and noise acts on the same bill because it offers such an extreme variety. It think that's why when we did Varnish in 2013 with such a major variety of music and (different) sounding noise/PE artists that Chicago was arguably the best scene in the country until Varnish II killed it (kind of went full circle, ha) in 2016 almost 4 years to the date later.
I tried to do the same in Pittsburgh upon arrival, but was gassed out on starting from scratch. Even still, the shows here tend to be pretty dynamic as far as performances go.
A trend I always witnessed also that is toxic is the fear of new or younger people getting into it. Even if you have 100 new people coming in per year with only 1 or 2 that stick around and give us something great, it's worth it to sift through the crap. It's easy to tell immediately who will be gone in a few months to a year, not as easy to tell who will stay, so I will welcome the new and the change with open arms.  

[Strangecross]

I think we can say that inevitable changes that lead to make things easier has to be accepted, but the fact may be that the off-screen investigations into discovering this world made character developing experiences. A time and place, a real object found and held in ones hand, and in person experiences. The old masters had more experience.
I see this hinted at, but more in an argument about downloading music and edition size, and not this setting.
The concert line-up Brett shows, has evidence of people coming to noise through other genre's... the 'noise rock' and other experimentations that came from close knit scenes simply do not exist now. All smaller sects of genre are really 'post-______'
Nowaday's lineups, to the discerned ear may be varied, but not as varied as that! you pretty much have new harsh noise, if it commemorates old school noise or not.
So like I said before, what is missing is strength of character via artistic endeavors( like collapsed hole's experience in trying to communicate his feelings on life at the time) and social fluency(the point where those themes catch on and create a following)
and I said that external forces have nothing to do with- well they do, but my point is it is the individuals that matter, not how they broadcast.
so I think these strength of character is what Mikko sees as missing?

and does that really mean discovery of noise and developing as an artist is easier now, or harder? depends on the person I guess

[Peterson]

I think what's missing, particularly when somebody like Will brings up things like "character," is basic integrity. And human decency, but that's arguably private.

[Goat93]

Lots of crossover and diverse crowds. Attending Industrial\Noise fests in recent years, I can normally tell that I'm in the youngest 10% of the audience, and I'm in my mid 30s. The increasingly insular micro-scenes of noise and industrial don't attract much new blood, which is needed to keep things exciting and fresh.

Reminds me about the Gothic/Industrial Scene discussions, when Cyber Industrial pops up. Its like the People heere are imprisont in a Micro Scene, while the World around keeps turning. There are a lot Noise InfluencedMusic and it will be more in the Future. The borders are no more and the "Crossover" isn't marked anymore and the definition of Noise and Industrial are meaningless in the Music World around the Micro Cosmos, called "Noise Scene".

As example shows Ghostemane Prurient in the Playlist, while attracting mostly young People with a Emo/Rap/Death-Black Meta/lHardcore/Noise "Crossover whats its not called Crossover anymore.

So, in my Opinion the new Generation is just making their own WITHOUT the past and the borders and definitions of the past. And this is nothing really new at all. I attendet a lot of Noise Concerts with mostly young People into Art/Fashion and not into Noise Scene. Often i was a single "Noise Head" with more than 30-50 Art/Fashion People around...

[WCN]

I feel that currently, and over the past 3 or so years, the noise field ("scene") has gotten quite interested and actively healthy again. I felt like it was rough out there for a few years ca. 2012-2015 when so many people had turned acted like noise was "over" and moved on to EBM/techno/etc. Maybe some considered this "eclectic" but I found it simply populist. A lot of those people are back now, and I welcome them back with open arms, no judgement - I really think it's great. After all, noise IS life/joy, so just glad more people are coming around, old and new.

I don't think anything is really "missing" - as I said, I think there are a lot unique and talented new and active artists networking right now and releasing music right now, and a pretty hungry passionate audience (this is what was missing on a larger scale during the above mentioned drought more than anything, as I think there was a lot of interesting artistic activity during that time as well).

I will however make the blunt statement that I think the fact that Instagram has taken over as such a major platform for communication and advertisement in the noise scene simply SHIT. This comes from my personal belief that Instagram (other social media platforms as well, but IG is the worst) are in general SHIT for the human being - on an individual psychological level and on a societal level. The superficiality, the narcissism, the vanity, the dumbing down of language inherently promoted by the platform, not to mention the corporate parasitism of your personal information... I find it simply sad and absurd that the majority of the world has accepted and embraced it and literally enslaved themselves with it (I'm not holier than thou - I've used these platforms in the past, and still do to some extent).

The fact that so many people are willing mix this pathetic attention whoring / guilty pleasure McDonald's platform that really only people aged 16-19 hoping to find sex/"someone who finally understands them" should get a pass for using, with UNDERGROUND NOISE CULTURE (a perhaps cringeworthy term but one I choose to wear on my sleeve, as it means the world to me) is truly shameful in my mind, and I do believe it has a tangible effect on the culture. I'm not sure I can describe objectively in what ways, but a banal example would be: labels who exist primarily on instagram posting hot batches designed to sell out in an hour, cool perfect aesthetics, but once you get the tapes they are shittily printed and the dubs SUCK (another thing no one in noise seems to care about these days - sound quality of physical media. As long as it's an "analog" format, the people buy it up and don't make a peep. And as long as the label sold it out and got enough FIREBALLS on their intagram post, they're happy too.) Or even established labels / artists who only announce their releases on IG because it's just easier. I totally get offering certain items to the dedicated few who are tapped in - when I came up in the Troniks board era, lots of things were announces exclusively there. It's just a CHOICE you have to make as an artist or label, which says a lot to me about your values and dedication, and I'm baffled by the CHOICE of so many to use a corporate data mining cellphone app responsible for the decline of civilization as the sole channel to promote things of the spirit, especially when there are so many other options!!!!

RANT over for now - I can and should be more specific about a lot of what I'm trying to say here, as I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg but please, tell me I'm not buggin????

[holy ghost]

I don't disagree with anything above said about Instagram but having said that, I still like it (dare I say "depend" on it) for keeping up to date with a lot of releases coming out. Also I like staying up to date with people posting all kinds of their projects/releases/now playing updates. As discussed several times in this thread the average age for noise people seems to be a lot older and often involves people working full time, having kids (not me, ugh but some people) and I see people IRL so rarely I'm willing to use a platform for staying in touch and being able to interact, even if it's only a "like"...... besides the horny teens and spooky goths are already on ticktock or snapchat or whatever else.

In short, I couldn't rely on the "new releases" section of this board to keep me updated on the movers and shakers I like to buy from. I also had to get a Facebook a couple of years ago to keep up to date with shows however despicable I found that. I keep thinking haha shows are over time to delete this but it's such an entrenched part of "the scene" it's inescapable.

Also saw a few posts about people reluctant to talk about their interests in noise for fear of being shunned or tastes mocked. Hopefully that's only the case with the edgy PE guys marketing a scary nihilistic "brand". Maybe it's a symptom of being older but I've long ago given up caring what anyone else thinks of my tastes....

That being said I will also say that like New Forces mentioned above, I absolutely love Robedoor even if I haven't kept up with their output over the past few years but it's true, it's a seemingly rare thing to see that sort of thing discussed here.

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

Or even established labels / artists who only announce their releases on IG because it's just easier.

It never was about how easy it was, just a means to put stuff out and connect with folks. Then again though I've never followed the old guard of "rules" to begin with regarding any of my work.

I mainly stopped posting about TCU/KOUFAR/etc releases on here 2 years ago because the engagement was little to none. Seemed like people here weren't interested and it felt like a waste of time. I'm sure this is the case with some other artists too who have found success on IG but none here.

[NerveGas]

I will however make the blunt statement that I think the fact that Instagram has taken over as such a major platform for communication and advertisement in the noise scene simply SHIT. This comes from my personal belief that Instagram (other social media platforms as well, but IG is the worst) are in general SHIT for the human being - on an individual psychological level and on a societal level. The superficiality, the narcissism, the vanity, the dumbing down of language inherently promoted by the platform, not to mention the corporate parasitism of your personal information... I find it simply sad and absurd that the majority of the world has accepted and embraced it and literally enslaved themselves with it (I'm not holier than thou - I've used these platforms in the past, and still do to some extent).

The fact that so many people are willing mix this pathetic attention whoring / guilty pleasure McDonald's platform that really only people aged 16-19 hoping to find sex/"someone who finally understands them" should get a pass for using, with UNDERGROUND NOISE CULTURE (a perhaps cringeworthy term but one I choose to wear on my sleeve, as it means the world to me) is truly shameful in my mind, and I do believe it has a tangible effect on the culture. I'm not sure I can describe objectively in what ways, but a banal example would be: labels who exist primarily on instagram posting hot batches designed to sell out in an hour, cool perfect aesthetics, but once you get the tapes they are shittily printed and the dubs SUCK (another thing no one in noise seems to care about these days - sound quality of physical media. As long as it's an "analog" format, the people buy it up and don't make a peep. And as long as the label sold it out and got enough FIREBALLS on their intagram post, they're happy too.) Or even established labels / artists who only announce their releases on IG because it's just easier. I totally get offering certain items to the dedicated few who are tapped in - when I came up in the Troniks board era, lots of things were announces exclusively there. It's just a CHOICE you have to make as an artist or label, which says a lot to me about your values and dedication, and I'm baffled by the CHOICE of so many to use a corporate data mining cellphone app responsible for the decline of civilization as the sole channel to promote things of the spirit, especially when there are so many other options!!!!

RANT over for now - I can and should be more specific about a lot of what I'm trying to say here, as I feel this is just the tip of the iceberg but please, tell me I'm not buggin????

I don't think there's really any way to reconcile data-mining mega corporation applications used to promoted hip lifestyles/ego stroking with underground culture of any kind. It can be seen with any genre nowadays. A fast food level of consumption. Sure, reverting back to the days of paper catalogs, tape trading, and pen pals is not a realistic option that  many people will entertain, but are we always supposed to settle for lowest common denominator options? Whatever is easiest is always the method used? Like anything this is not black and white. There are fine individuals who align themselves with the underground who use social media. For the most part, however, it is goofy at best and corrosive at worst.