Avantgarde / transgression / industrial

[JLIAT]

And maybe you must understand that GPO, as every young man, without music schools and fascinated rock psychedelic music, could adopt "avantgarde" only by such tools which he can use? So popular music, which he knew? So rock? For me it is obvious, it is obvious when I am listening to TG music also.

But GPO was not "as every young man" prior to setting up TG he was involved in the Art world, was supported by the arts council, was part of the contemporary scene at the ICA in London, was radical to the extent of making newspaper headlines and getting questions asked in the UK parliament - from the infamous prostitution show! Before TG he was very significant in the artworld.. -Even visited Falmouth School of Art as part of Fluxus - i was there in my final year ;-)  

"There is no front."

I don't understand this.

Avant Garde - "from French, "advance guard" or "vanguard", literally "fore-guard" The troops at the front of an army. In art - then spearheading an advance. The idea of progress and making new stuff in music / art. A key feature of Modernism. As was building on the past and making progress.

Whereas post-modernity... typified by no clear front, aim or objectives. More 'whatever it means to you is what it means' everything is just style. Examples - see this thread.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Here is again maybe what is missing. When a genre just becomes about style. When anything becomes about style and not content. Then something is missing.

I could share this opinion. Maybe our "fucking discussion" about basic terms was necessary to back to the main topic? These basic terms I could expand to what is "artist/composer"? What is his role in society? What is art/music and how it do define in context of legacy of the Avant-garde nowadays? Where is here a publisher, writer and receiver? Of course, everyone may say that it is useless "fucking" pseudo-intelectual, academic "wankfest". Most of people (who declares liking "industrial/noise) doesn't care what is bloodline of music/art which they love. Yeah, this is one of the most important of "MISSING...". People don't want to question existing reality, they don't want to question knowledge which was set up in the past and still feds intellectual laziness of people. These people (enthusiasts on industrial/noise), which most of them feel unique in this fucked reality, actually accept this old culture and science order. In such situation everything will be missing... and always old people will remind these old, beautiful times in fucking nostalgic way, and younger - will envy them because these young people have no idea how their reality to change. But, how they can know it, if they don't know where from this reality comes?

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

But GPO was not "as every young man" prior to setting up TG he was involved in the Art world, was supported by the arts council, was part of the contemporary scene at the ICA in London, was radical to the extent of making newspaper headlines and getting questions asked in the UK parliament - from the infamous prostitution show! Before TG he was very significant in the artworld.. -Even visited Falmouth School of Art as part of Fluxus - i was there in my final year ;-)  

"There is no front."

I don't understand this.

Avant Garde - "from French, "advance guard" or "vanguard", literally "fore-guard" The troops at the front of an army. In art - then spearheading an advance. The idea of progress and making new stuff in music / art. A key feature of Modernism. As was building on the past and making progress.

Whereas post-modernity... typified by no clear front, aim or objectives. More 'whatever it means to you is what it means' everything is just style. Examples - see this thread.

"But GPO was not "as every young man""

Yes, he was. He felt as an artist/musician but he wasn't able to play on instruments (if we consider his musical skill). So, what could he use tool to convert avantgarde ideas in popular way? What kind of music? Only rock music - he has always been a psychedelic rockman.

"Avant Garde - "from French, "advance guard"

And so? In Avant-Garde, as trend in modern art, being in the front isn't the most important. The most important is BREAKING OLD/CLASSIC CANONS OF BEAUTY.  And don't remind here de Sade who broke canons... Yes, he broke canons, but only relating to customs/moral, not in the Art. His works has not broken anything in the literature art.

[JLIAT]

"But GPO was not "as every young man""

Yes, he was. He felt as an artist/musician but he wasn't able to play on instruments (if we consider his musical skill). So, what could he use tool to convert avantgarde ideas in popular way? What kind of music? Only rock music - he has always been a psychedelic rockman.

We have kind of gone over this before, but to play psychedelic rock we are talking pink floyd pre Darkside, and they certainly could play and certainly did have musical skill. The negation of skill was far more punk, the three chords now form a band... idea, And the Britannica article gives TG as post punk industrial. (As do most sources including Savage!)  But if your idea that noise = industrial, then as i said Vomir is industrial, which of course he is not. 

"Avant Garde - "from French, "advance guard"

And so? In Avant-Garde, as trend in modern art, being in the front isn't the most important. The most important is BREAKING OLD/CLASSIC CANONS OF BEAUTY.  And don't remind here de Sade who broke canons... Yes, he broke canons, but only relating to customs/moral, not in the Art. His works has not broken anything in the literature art.

I'm sorry but that's not how it was. Breaking the old classic cannons was the by product of developing the modernist programme. Truth is beauty, less is more... etc. As was being shocking, that too a by product, 'The Shock of the new'.

There is a very good example which shows "The most important is BREAKING OLD/CLASSIC CANONS OF BEAUTY." was wrong. Back in the late 19thC we had impressionism which pushed painting into an engagement with light- the truth of the visual without recourse to the hierarchy of subject, in effect breaking the old classic cannons by the way. And the pre-raphaelites, who did want to break the then given norms by return to a period prior to the contemporary. In terms of the development of Art, the impressionist movement led on via Cézanne to Cubism etc.

In modernity (i must put IMO here i suppose) the idea was each successive wave built on what went before. Such it was similar to science. As Newton said, standing on the shoulders of giants. That Einstein's theories more closely modelled reality was not so much a break as a development.

If breaking the cannons was the most important then development would be simple and easy, as was punk. And in a way punk was a kind of retrograde step back to a simpler pop of rock and roll, skiffle music.

So lets say the current cannon - in your terms is noise, then to break this would be simple, start playing tunes. Nice tunes.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

"But GPO was not "as every young man""

Yes, he was. He felt as an artist/musician but he wasn't able to play on instruments (if we consider his musical skill). So, what could he use tool to convert avantgarde ideas in popular way? What kind of music? Only rock music - he has always been a psychedelic rockman.

We have kind of gone over this before, but to play psychedelic rock we are talking pink floyd pre Darkside, and they certainly could play and certainly did have musical skill. The negation of skill was far more punk, the three chords now form a band... idea, And the Britannica article gives TG as post punk industrial. (As do most sources including Savage!)  But if your idea that noise = industrial, then as i said Vomir is industrial, which of course he is not.  

"Avant Garde - "from French, "advance guard"

And so? In Avant-Garde, as trend in modern art, being in the front isn't the most important. The most important is BREAKING OLD/CLASSIC CANONS OF BEAUTY.  And don't remind here de Sade who broke canons... Yes, he broke canons, but only relating to customs/moral, not in the Art. His works has not broken anything in the literature art.

I'm sorry but that's not how it was. Breaking the old classic cannons was the by product of developing the modernist programme. Truth is beauty, less is more... etc. As was being shocking, that too a by product, 'The Shock of the new'.

There is a very good example which shows "The most important is BREAKING OLD/CLASSIC CANONS OF BEAUTY." was wrong. Back in the late 19thC we had impressionism which pushed painting into an engagement with light- the truth of the visual without recourse to the hierarchy of subject, in effect breaking the old classic cannons by the way. And the pre-raphaelites, who did want to break the then given norms by return to a period prior to the contemporary. In terms of the development of Art, the impressionist movement led on via Cézanne to Cubism etc.

In modernity (i must put IMO here i suppose) the idea was each successive wave built on what went before. Such it was similar to science. As Newton said, standing on the shoulders of giants. That Einstein's theories more closely modelled reality was not so much a break as a development.

If breaking the cannons was the most important then development would be simple and easy, as was punk. And in a way punk was a kind of retrograde step back to a simpler pop of rock and roll, skiffle music.

So lets say the current cannon - in your terms is noise, then to break this would be simple, start playing tunes. Nice tunes.

"And the Britannica article gives TG as post punk industrial. "

Yes, and it is true which can  confirm what I wrote and wanted to say many times here. It shows that "post punk", so rockish style determines what TG done. In my nomenclature this is "avant-rock". "Industrial" is only label which clarifes context of this "post punk" - in my nomeclature this is "industrial avant-rock". However which we can use name here, both terms shows what is the main and real bloodline of TG music. This is rock music, not industrial music which hasn't any conncection to rock music.

"then as i said Vomir is industrial, which of course he is not."

Of course - he is industrial. His music is based only on the anti-music which was described by Savage as the only sound/musical factor which determines the "industrial music". Vomir can be considered as an artist from the outside of "industrial culture", but not from "industrial music" - having regard to Savage's criteria still.

"In terms of the development of Art, the impressionist movement led on via Cézanne to Cubism etc. "

Yes, impressionist is called as very important for the Avan-garde movement but it isn't "avant". Impressionists focused on light which a little destroyed mimetic side of art, but it was still located in classic formulas of beauty.  Art historians aren't agreed. Some of them see Impressionism as avant-garde, others - not. I am in the second group.


"If breaking the cannons was the most important then development would be simple and easy, as was punk. And in a way punk was a kind of retrograde step back to a simpler pop of rock and roll, skiffle music.
So lets say the current cannon - in your terms is noise, then to break this would be simple, start playing tunes. Nice tunes."

These your words proofed that you don't understand the essence of Avantgarde. You don't understand, what is mean "classic beauty" in the art. You don't understand what does it mean BEAUTY in the art. Sorry, but we meet in the place, where we are staying before lack of basic knowledge, one of us, about aesthetics in the Art. Sorry, but I don't feel like explaining such things for you here. This basic knowledge, which is well known for everybody who wants to know art history/aesthetics, you may find  in every book dedicated to this case. It isn't disputed.

[JLIAT]

Can i first apologise to Theodore, Japsi, W.K. et al. who might take umbrage with my reply, maybe my style, that i go on.. though only really recently in this thread  on this board or that they find intellectual discourse about genre categories annoying. But I actually think this exchange with mpulsyStetoskopu is interesting. And I've no intention of creating any boundaries, if this perceived again i'm sorry, especially as i dont think there are any longer boundaries, which is a problem, which is missing. Or do i wish there to be boundaries even if i thought them possible. My story is how did we get here, and so Chto delat'?  ?? Zero Marx is right, welcome to reality ;-)

"And the Britannica article gives TG as post punk industrial. "

Yes, and it is true which can  confirm what I wrote and wanted to say many times here. It shows that "post punk", so rockish style determines what TG done. In my nomenclature this is "avant-rock". "Industrial" is only label which clarifes context of this "post punk" - in my nomeclature this is "industrial avant-rock".

Then there is no problem – you are using "industrial avant-rock" to describe what all the quotes I gave including Savage as "industrial".  And of course you are free to do so, but it can, obviously as here cause confusion. It might do more? Fail to trace the development of Industrial via PE to Noise, Harsh Noise and finally HNW.

However which we can use name here, both terms shows what is the main and real bloodline of TG music. This is rock music, not industrial music which hasn't any conncection to rock music.

The main musical bloodline, obviously TG were very much influenced by Fluxus and performance art, and there are endless debates about musical bloodlines. But sure they used a kind of rock band format. It was in GPO's terms a way of popularizing his art. And to note you rule out much of what is generally considered Industrial, PE and noise. The rock band format. Most if not all, including most Japnoise.

"then as i said Vomir is industrial, which of course he is not."

Of course - he is industrial.

So he is wrong in thinking he is HNW.  His manifestos are wrong, I see the intentional fallacy? Well I dont go with that as fully as you seem to.

His music is based only on the anti-music which was described by Savage as the only sound/musical factor which determines the "industrial music".

That is simply not true, or again your reading across and despite what Savage actually said. Savage uses the term  ANTI-MUSIC once in his Industrial Principals. Here in full is #3

"3) USE OF SYNTHESIZERS AND ANTI-MUSIC. This is self-explanatory. Although music was the means to an end, rather than the end in itself, there was still the necessity of matching form to format. In this, Throbbing Gristle's Second Annual Report (1977) with its reliance on synthesizers and non-musical sounds, was prototypical. Punk's predilection for amplified noise--as well as works like "Loop" or "Sister Ray"--was refined into a new approach to "music." This development was taken (and is still being taken) to its fullest extent by the profoundly disturbing and haunting work of certain "industrial" artists, whose occasional records provide perhaps the true soundtrack to the final quarter of the twentieth century. "

He does not say anti-music is the only sound musical factor.  He says " USE OF SYNTHESIZERS AND ANTI-MUSIC" in Second Annual Report. Moreover he rules out Vomir as being 'Industrial' "the term "industrial" is now obsolete and useless."  " The context has shifted: pop is no longer important: temporarily, television is. It is there that the next round in the Information War is being fought." This in 1983  pre dates Vomir.

Vomir can be considered as an artist from the outside of "industrial culture", but not from "industrial music" - having regard to Savage's criteria still.

Using Savages criteria the term by 83 was obsolete and useless.

"In terms of the development of Art, the impressionist movement led on via Cézanne to Cubism etc. "

Yes, impressionist is called as very important for the Avan-garde movement but it isn't "avant". Impressionists focused on light which a little destroyed mimetic side of art, but it was still located in classic formulas of beauty.  Art historians aren't agreed. Some of them see Impressionism as avant-garde, others - not. I am in the second group.

You miss my point, if you consider the impressionists not as being avant garde, fine – please give some examples.

"If breaking the cannons was the most important then development would be simple and easy, as was punk. And in a way punk was a kind of retrograde step back to a simpler pop of rock and roll, skiffle music.
So lets say the current cannon - in your terms is noise, then to break this would be simple, start playing tunes. Nice tunes."

These your words proofed that you don't understand the essence of Avantgarde. You don't understand, what is mean "classic beauty" in the art. You don't understand what does it mean BEAUTY in the art. Sorry, but we meet in the place, where we stand before lack of basic knowledge, one of us, about aesthetics in the Art. Sorry, but I don't feel like explaining such things for you here. This basic knowledge, which is well known for everybody who wants to know art history/aesthetics, you may find  in every book dedicated to this case. It isn't disputed.

OK so you've basically called me ignorant and so ducked out of this discussion / argument. Actually there are any number of theories regarding beauty / aesthetics. Even if we take some of the most significant, Kant, Schelling, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Benjamin, Adorno  Heidegger - we see  differences. I'm surprised you think otherwise and you are not aware of this. But now we, I at least, are in danger of straying into philosophy which will upset the horses. Anyway it was fun.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Then there is no problem – you are using "industrial avant-rock" to describe what all the quotes I gave including Savage as "industrial".  And of course you are free to do so, but it can, obviously as here cause confusion. It might do more? Fail to trace the development of Industrial via PE to Noise, Harsh Noise and finally HNW.

Confusion is when people using "industrial" to name typic industrial rock bands like Ministry, NIN or even Marilyn Manson. When "industrial" appears in case of techno, EBM and other Goth music shit. Confusion is when people aren't conscious where from and what should mean "industrial" in context of development of music somewhere between academic, scholastic music, and pop culture with such trends like rock music.
Confusion is when people want to mix up something what is "rockish" and comes from "classic" imagination of music, with "avantgardish" what is and should be against every "classic" types of esthetics/forms based on melody, regular rhythm, symetry and will to put in order all pieces of music, just including rock music.

"So he is wrong in thinking he is HNW.  His manifestos are wrong, I see the intentional fallacy? Well I dont go with that as fully as you seem to.

I don't know what he is thinking. I know that HNW is part of Industrial Music, its sub-genre. It comes from rational considering what is music, what is noise and what does it mean for art and people. You have right don't accept my view.  Everybody has right to live and feel as he wants... Even if rational arguments are against to such projections.


I know that my views may be surprising/shocking, especially when somebody didn't consider that knowledge which was read/intruduced generates wrong imagination, and just confusion in communication between people. I know that people would rather live in well known positions of terms and don't want to change this comfortable, but false image of reality. I have no delusions that "industrial" is going to mean still the same, everything and nothing.

"He does not say anti-music is the only sound musical factor.  He says " USE OF SYNTHESIZERS AND ANTI-MUSIC" in Second Annual Report."

you should add: "was prototypical", to be fair. As when he mentioned about The Velvet Underground "Sister Ray" - following your arguments - The Velvet Underground should be named as "industrial"?. "Synthesizers" isn't type of music/sound, only the name of a new instruments. He didn't explain what he meant by "use of syntesizers" but we may think out that he found that many composers/bands use synthesizers in his music. Besides, I focused and suggested his criteria because he diagnosed very well phenomena, other problem is how he described and explained his thesis.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

OK so you've basically called me ignorant and so ducked out of this discussion / argument. Actually there are any number of theories regarding beauty / aesthetics. Even if we take some of the most significant, Kant, Schelling, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Benjamin, Adorno  Heidegger - we see  differences. I'm surprised you think otherwise and you are not aware of this. But now we, I at least, are in danger of straying into philosophy which will upset the horses. Anyway it was fun.

Sorry, but you used stupid arguments in previous post. And now you are mentioning different names to proof that there are many concepts of esthetics. This is a manipulation. I didn't write that there aren't various concepts about what is esthetics and how it works in history art or in philosophy. I wrote that there isn't disputed what is considering so called "classic image/cannon of beauty" in art. History of art knows various cannons of beauty and some philosophers understood it in different way, but everyone (who can experience the first phenmomenas in Avantgarde art) agreed that was "classic" beauty and the new one, which was against the classic. If you find any words of these philosophers which you mentioned above, that can proof your displeasure of my statement you are ignorant in this matter, I am able to sorry you here and name myself ignorant. OK?

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

The main musical bloodline, obviously TG were very much influenced by Fluxus and performance art, and there are endless debates about musical bloodlines. But sure they used a kind of rock band format. It was in GPO's terms a way of popularizing his art. And to note you rule out much of what is generally considered Industrial, PE and noise. The rock band format. Most if not all, including most Japnoise.

Which Japnoise artist has rockish format? Note: I remind about essence of music. Before you will write about Merzbow or Hijokaidan or Keiji Haino, consider what he/they have done with "rock music" in their noise... And think if TG 's artistic aim was the same in treating rock music in such way.

[JLIAT]

I don't think this exchange is going anywhere if it ever tried? And as its annoying certain people maybe its best to stop. But i''ll say a few remarks.

"I don't know how you and others, but I hate every tradition (especially in the art/music) and I am convinced that everyone should break every tradition in his life."

OK, this has now become a tradition in itself! If you / I define Avant-Garde as doing such it merely sets up another tradition.

"I know that my views may be surprising/shocking,  "

Not shocking for me.  A worn out feature of Modernity.

As for  ""classic image/cannon of beauty" in art. " you will see that this in history has changed  e.g. – romanticism over no-classicism,  modernism over romanticism, and now post-modernism...  What for the Romantics was sublime, nature, was once thought ugly...

As for genres they come and fade into 'styles'.  As such its possible to even now find such styles as 'modernist' or 'Victorian' or 'industrial'. A style lacks content, or a mismatch between the appearance and content. "Everything now is retro" - Mark Fisher.

I'm a member of the ICA, (supposedly where the genre industrial began- and pop art) the restaurant is very good, its current concerns, colonialization and queer theory.


Merzbow / Japnoise, as I said above they in simple terms can be seen as being similar to abstract expressionism, where expressionism, like industrial and PE was about psychological states, raw emotion / human sensation, with noise this content was removed / overwritten – musically if not performativly in some cases.  

But speaking of shocking – I seem to have done better than you in upsetting people in this thread "I didn't even have an issue with Impulsy, in fact I quite enjoy his writing on this area. You, on the other hand, seem like a pompous, purposefully contrarian ass. "
i'm not being that serious in that last remark...BTW.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

OK, this has now become a tradition in itself! If you / I define Avant-Garde as doing such it merely sets up another tradition.

"I know that my views may be surprising/shocking,  "

Not shocking for me.  A worn out feature of Modernity.

As for  ""classic image/cannon of beauty" in art. " you will see that this in history has changed  e.g. – romanticism over no-classicism,  modernism over romanticism, and now post-modernism...  What for the Romantics was sublime, nature, was once thought ugly...

As for genres they come and fade into 'styles'.  As such its possible to even now find such styles as 'modernist' or 'Victorian' or 'industrial'. A style lacks content, or a mismatch between the appearance and content. "Everything now is retro" - Mark Fisher.

I'm a member of the ICA, (supposedly where the genre industrial began- and pop art) the restaurant is very good, its current concerns, colonialization and queer theory.


Merzbow / Japnoise, as I said above they in simple terms can be seen as being similar to abstract expressionism, where expressionism, like industrial and PE was about psychological states, raw emotion / human sensation, with noise this content was removed / overwritten – musically if not performativly in some cases.  

But speaking of shocking – I seem to have done better than you in upsetting people in this thread "I didn't even have an issue with Impulsy, in fact I quite enjoy his writing on this area. You, on the other hand, seem like a pompous, purposefully contrarian ass. "
i'm not being that serious in that last remark...BTW.

Sory that I'm not letting you to fisnish but you used some very important thoughts which in contrary must be explained for other (if any still are here) readers this topic have more fuller image and can / want to create opposite ways to their consideration/reflexions.


"OK, this has now become a tradition in itself! If you / I define Avant-Garde as doing such it merely sets up another tradition."

Yes, this is a tradition. Because everything belongs to the culture, even if we name something as "anticulture". But...
it depends on in which tradition we want to live. In tradition of building something new using old, checked (classic) rules? Or on destroying these rules and building new one which are adopted to our time and needs?
The first tradition gives us illusion of life in which we may live more comfortable and safer, but this life is primitive and it generates confusing in this world and life.
The second tradition give us symptoms of true life, filled with destruction, lack of safety, but with bigger control and connection to our world.
What is very important - we can not connect these two traditions....
As you and maybe other can suppose it is metaphorical dissonance between "Avantgarde" and "classic traditional  art".... This is even something more.... This is dissonance between people who respects conservatism/tradition  and people who prefer liberty and antytraditional thinking - world view.


" you will see that this in history has changed  e.g. – romanticism over no-classicism,  modernism over romanticism, and now post-modernism...  What for the Romantics was sublime, nature, was once thought ugly... "

You are wrong. This is typic thinking who doesn't understand what is difference between being innovator and avantgardist. Always were innovatores in the art who were doing something new in their time. Question is (see my the first sentences above here) if they wanted to build something new on the basis of checked (classic) rules or they wanted to build something new be using destroying old (classic) rules? This is quintessence being "avantgardish". So, this isn't true that nowadays aren't avantgardists in art or in music... They are here and there... There aren't innovatores....


"Merzbow / Japnoise, as I said above they in simple terms can be seen as being similar to abstract expressionism, where expressionism, like industrial and PE was about psychological states, raw emotion / human sensation, with noise this content was removed / overwritten – musically if not performativly in some cases. "

Ok, I would accept your poin of view if "abstract expressionism" would be genre in music art. This term doesn't exist in musical literature, at least I don't know such. Besides, "abstract expressionism" isn't able to describe music which is, every type of music, very abstract. "Expressionism" in turn is very ambiguous in context of music. Expressionism is in gothic rock, black metal, or in the neoclassical genres.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

ok so just make another thread about how its really obvious that the shared experience of the conception of the industrial genre is obviously subjective

Everything is subjective experience. Problem is if you or me are able to legitimatise our (subjective) experience.

[JLIAT]

ok so just make another thread about how its really obvious that the shared experience of the conception of the industrial genre is obviously subjective

Everything is subjective experience. Problem is if you or me are able to legitimatise our (subjective) experience.

"Intersubjectivity also helps to constitute objectivity: in the experience of the world as available not only to oneself, but also to the Other, there is a bridge between the personal and the shared, the self and the Others."

[JLIAT]

Sory that I'm not letting you to fisnish but you used some very important thoughts which in contrary must be explained for other (if any still are here) readers this topic have more fuller image and can / want to create opposite ways to their consideration/reflexions.

I've no problem discussing this topic with you, and as Mikko  the OP quoted me, and raised the idea of something missing unlike Japsi I see that this is neither a wank fest, or are we derailing the discussion. I don't particularly like being called " a pompous, purposefully contrarian ass" but maybe in your terms of avant garde being ' contrarian' is an asset.

"OK, this has now become a tradition in itself! If you / I define Avant-Garde as doing such it merely sets up another tradition."

Yes, this is a tradition. Because everything belongs to the culture, even if we name something as "anticulture". But...
it depends on in which tradition we want to live. In tradition of building something new using old, checked (classic) rules? Or on destroying these rules and building new one which are adopted to our time and needs?

This more or less chimes with the now old and defunct ideas around modernism. i.e. the tradition that came to an end in the mid 2othC.  Modernism itself – being avant garde in part was very much a reaction - destruction to Victorianism, in Architecture, Art, Music, Poetry etc. And Victorianism itself a reaction to the previous Georgian period. Modernity was typified by such " destroying these rules and building new one which are adopted to our time and needs". Each set of rules being replaced by another hegemony. (you have in modernism this binary process, you can see in po-mo the non binary, or in Deleuze & Guattari the Rhizome as opposed to the Hierarchical arboreal ) So post-modernism isn't yet another set of rules, another set of grand narratives, but a rejection of that very process. And with it a rejection of the ideas and mechanism of modernity, including the avant-garde. Everything is allowed. Not only that but the structures – of say serious music and pop music were deconstructed. A recent example would be Reich's Radio Rewrite (based on Radiohead..) Warhol & The Velvet Underground maybe the first such example in music?

The first tradition gives us illusion of life in which we may live more comfortable and safer, but this life is primitive and it generates confusing in this world and life.
The second tradition give us symptoms of true life, filled with destruction, lack of safety, but with bigger control and connection to our world.
What is very important - we can not connect these two traditions....
As you and maybe other can suppose it is metaphorical dissonance between "Avantgarde" and "classic traditional  art".... This is even something more.... This is dissonance between people who respects conservatism/tradition  and people who prefer liberty and antytraditional thinking - world view.

Sure – and as I said the whole process of modernity was replacing one set of comfortable rules with another- which though at first seem uncomfortably shocking to some soon became the norm. This, its said generated a feeling of Paranoia, paranoia is the diss-ease of modernity, which is no longer found in post-modernity, Schizophrenia has replaced Paranoia. You seem still stuck in the illusion of modernity's hegemony, you see 'reason' as somehow significant.

" you will see that this in history has changed  e.g. – romanticism over no-classicism,  modernism over romanticism, and now post-modernism...  What for the Romantics was sublime, nature, was once thought ugly... "

You are wrong. This is typic thinking who doesn't understand what is difference between being innovator and avantgardist. Always were innovatores in the art who were doing something new in their time. Question is (see my the first sentences above here) if they wanted to build something new on the basis of checked (classic) rules or they wanted to build something new be using destroying old (classic) rules? This is quintessence being "avantgardish". So, this isn't true that nowadays aren't avantgardists in art or in music... They are here and there... There aren't innovatores....

Above you say "destroying these rules and building new one" now you say  "There aren't innovators.... " a person who introduces new methods, ideas, or products." Are you happy with your contradiction?

I could equally say you are wrong, but you are not. Within the  Schizophrenia of po-mo there is no longer binary opposites, or rather they can co-exist with non binarys. Your  avantgardists  - who are destroying what? The deconstructed post-modern world. Seems such a process is like "Make America Great Again".

"Merzbow / Japnoise, as I said above they in simple terms can be seen as being similar to abstract expressionism, where expressionism, like industrial and PE was about psychological states, raw emotion / human sensation, with noise this content was removed / overwritten – musically if not performativly in some cases. "

Ok, I would accept your poin of view if "abstract expressionism" would be genre in music art. This term doesn't exist in musical literature, at least I don't know such. Besides, "abstract expressionism" isn't able to describe music which is, every type of music, very abstract. "Expressionism" in turn is very ambiguous in context of music. Expressionism is in gothic rock, black metal, or in the neoclassical genres.

There isn't a abstract expressionist music as far as I know. I was using it as a metaphor.  I suppose the nearest musical analogy would be Reich's its gonna rain, where the content of the speech is not relevant. (music can be abstract, but also not, e.g. the pastoral symphony or opera!) And sure that's the divide between Industrial / PE and noise. Even if there is content in noise, its nature destroys it.

P.S. you might like to give this a look...https://arthistoryunstuffed.com/death-of-the-avant-garde/

or a longer work https://www.amazon.com/End-American-Avant-Garde-Experience-ebook/dp/B00EIFPF7G

[Strangecross]

ok so just make another thread about how its really obvious that the shared experience of the conception of the industrial genre is obviously subjective

Everything is subjective experience. Problem is if you or me are able to legitimatise our (subjective) experience.

when I need you to legitimize my experience, i'll come running to that new thread