Tough Guy PE/Industrial

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

Can anyone explain this? Mikko, seen you talk about this and others reference the phrase before.

The closest thing that comes to mind with this is Slogun. I have a hard time understanding how intimidating the audience, spitting in their faces, physically engaging people isn't "tough guy". I don't see this as a negative, as criminality is a topic explored within PE/Industrial but I guess if its not sexually deviant it makes it tough guy?

[Duncan]

I don't fully understand the term either. The only consistent quality I've been able to identify about it is that it always seems to be made by emotionally underdeveloped American males.

[Frataxin]

I have a hard time understanding how intimidating the audience, spitting in their faces, physically engaging people isn't "tough guy". I don't see this as a negative, as criminality is a topic explored within PE/Industrial but I guess if its not sexually deviant it makes it tough guy?

I would think of Waves Crashing Piano Chords as tough-guy PE-the obvious GG shit going on, forcing his tongue down people's throats, instigating fights, straight up sucker punching people, guerrilla sets, all of that...maybe.

[jbalsinek]

I imagine balaclavas, and AK47s on the cover but I might be completely wrong.

[XXX]

to me it's more about what ISNT tough guy pe. think musique concrete or other 'high brow' arty noise vs a tape dedicated to all spree shooters.

[CannibalRitual]

The only consistent quality I've been able to identify about it is that it always seems to be made by emotionally underdeveloped American males.

[theotherjohn]

I'm trying to recall an old thread that covered similar ground and I suppose this is the closest one I could find: Extreme of the Extreme?

Physically assaulting the audience or doing anything that warrants arrest doesn't appeal to me at all, but a bit of theatrical intimidation and appropriate crowd work with willing-to-play-along audience members is certainly welcome in power electronics, and can make for a good Live Action if the pieces all add up together. It's up to the judgment and ability of the performer in recognising the repercussions of what they will do, predicting how others will react, and deciding whether it's necessary at all in the first place. Usually it isn't and the performer is better off sticking to just focusing on the music side. Which is what it's all about, ultimately.

I'll say this much: if you're going to act tough, don't hide behind a balaclava or clown makeup. Be brave and show your face. Knowing your weaknesses is far more important than knowing your strengths. And owning your vulnerabilities is far more effective than owning someone else's.

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

to me it's more about what ISNT tough guy pe. think musique concrete or other 'high brow' arty noise vs a tape dedicated to all spree shooters.

Dedicated to All Spree Shooters is a very in depth look at the gun problem/gun control situation in America. May not be post-mortem enough for some but it certainly is an interesting phenomena to be living in.

I'm trying to recall an old thread that covered similar ground and I suppose this is the closest one I could find: Extreme of the Extreme?

Physically assaulting the audience or doing anything that warrants arrest doesn't appeal to me at all, but a bit of theatrical intimidation and appropriate crowd work with willing-to-play-along audience members is certainly welcome in power electronics, and can make for a good Live Action if the pieces all add up together. It's up to the judgment and ability of the performer in recognising the repercussions of what they will do, predicting how others will react, and deciding whether it's necessary at all in the first place. Usually it isn't and the performer is better off sticking to just focusing on the music side. Which is what it's all about, ultimately.

I'll say this much: if you're going to act tough, don't hide behind a balaclava or clown makeup. Be brave and show your face. Knowing your weaknesses is far more important than knowing your strengths. And owning your vulnerabilities is far more effective than owning someone else's.

I guess maybe what I'm getting at is tough guy noise a style played or does it revolve around imagery? Crowd interaction has been discussed plenty. I'm talking more the "aura" of a project like its sonic's and thematics.

[theotherjohn]

Are you trying to find a sonic comparison between noise/PE and punk with the "tough guy" tag? Maybe a signature sound similar to the breakdown? I've seen audiences become frenzied when a slower pace interrupts the flow; crackling or malfunctioning sounds, or even dead crushing silence that come just prior to a searing chaotic high or release when it's fixed or resolved. These moments are usually unintentional rather than by design, which goes with my strengths and weaknesses opinion. If you can own your mistakes and work through them to a victorious win, that's a truer sign of ownership and being tough than false macho posturing. Just be genuine with it though and don't fake your flaws for predictable results, cos the last thing I'd want to see at a noise show is audience members aggro-stomping or practicing  spinning roundhouse kicks in anticipation to these moments coming up... leave that with the hardcore crowd.

As for visuals and thematics, I don't know what would constitute toughness in noise. On a toxic level, I suppose it would sit somewhere between being elitist and being an arsehole. Neither quality is worth fully striving for, but a little of both might work wonders.

Really though, there's better levels of "toughness" for projects to focus on. For example, I don't think spree shooters as a subject are particularly worth much consideration, beyond the shock factor which might attract a certain audience. Lower Electronics. But people who have overcome adversity or real struggles in life? That's what Tough Guy Power Electronics could and should be.

[Bleak Existence]

by tough guy if you means people with real criminal records - prison time sure there many who fit the bill myself include but i itake no pride in that shit

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

beyond the shock factor

Often people use this phrase to dismiss things they simply don't like or refuse to understand.

Quite interesting how everyone thinks that spree shooters relates to toughness. I had mentioned earlier the album is an exploration in deep issues in regards to ownership of guns and gun control within America. Don't understand how that tug of war relates to toughness but if you also don't live in America I wouldn't expect you to understand.

[BlackSunAndSteel]

to me it's more about what ISNT tough guy pe. think musique concrete or other 'high brow' arty noise vs a tape dedicated to all spree shooters.

= "everyone"

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Expression is hardly to be taken *that* seriously.
But it has very common usage. For example, I have received mail from artists featured in SI magazine, who thanked for free copy, and said that it was odd to see himself among all these tough guys.
Not that it would be 100% accurate description of rest of artists featured, but one can see the reason.

Expression is often used, and it is not necessarily negative remark at all. Basically anything I do, could be filed among "tough guy noise". I take it with pride, but at the same time I feel absolutely nothing in common with the hip hop -esque tough guy / "street cred" -aesthetic, which generally means something entirely different.

Any Finnish people will know the difference, what it means when you got the "kovis". It can be hardly described in English to come out accurately, but there is utmost difference of the nerd in front of class who will listen noise and john cage, and the kovis, tukka silmillä takarivissä... heh...

Lines are certainly blurred, but even if one would pretend otherwise,  you know the difference of nerd noise and tough guy noise - at least in humoristic division.

[Duncan]

beyond the shock factor

Often people use this phrase to dismiss things they simply don't like or refuse to understand.

And just as often other people use that response to avoid engaging with genuine criticism of their work. Vicious cycle of conversational unwillingness and the inability of people in either direction to support their claims beyond a few stock phrases.

Quite interesting how everyone thinks that spree shooters relates to toughness. I had mentioned earlier the album is an exploration in deep issues in regards to ownership of guns and gun control within America.

Who is 'everyone'?

Don't understand how that tug of war relates to toughness but if you also don't live in America I wouldn't expect you to understand.

I don't think geography is the only reason someone might argue that the album, or any other, misses the mark of demonstrating an in depth exploration of its given subject and, speaking seriously, this is where the whole argument of 'toughness' is quite important. The notion (or accusation) of toughness in PE/Industrial doesn't, I think, stem from a given theme or topic some one particular artist is trying to talk about but rather the fact this the music is more often than not characterised by aggressive, forceful sounds & heavily processed, screamed vocals etc etc etc. We can argue about whether that's good, bad or tough for as long as we want and it'll probably just be a matter of taste and opinion. You can however question whether that formula really allows an artist to demonstrate in depth commentary or exploration of ANY topic if it's methodology and delivery is based entirely on a fairly narrow pool of emotive or narrative tools.

[awwfn]

Don't mean to be overly disparaging, but I've never met anyone connected to noise who I'd describe as "tough". It's like most "extreme" art innit....people playing a role. I also think the assaulting the audience thing is a fuckin cop-out. Few people at a noise gig are gonna retaliate. Take your act to the crowd at a football match or something if you want to show what yer all about.