Tough Guy PE/Industrial

[AnonMessAgeSage]

Excellent discussion and topic to those who have genuinely treated this topic with a keen interest for a genuine analysis / explanation, without lapsing into kneejerk-reactions, with poorly-defined buzzwords.

I will give an appropriate and comprehensive reply when I have the time.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art? Would you like to see an artist/performer who stands far away, in the cage or hidden? Would you like to feel comfortable, safely in the crowd during show? And what  about psychological/mental violence in the art? Do you see some borders there too, really? Noise hurts... noise has to hurt in every possible way.... If you don't understand that, why do you use this fucking noise? I know.... you would like to adopt this fucking, harm noise in acceptable form, like this fucking Judeo-Christian culture which forces or devastating every unwanted shapes/phenomenas. It is sad you write such things.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

From dawn on industrial music and emergence of power electronics, artists would present something that generally makes them being disliked and ridiculed. Liked by some, but strongly opposed by some. This substance itself would be tough/strong. Strong enough to poke feeling in nearly random stranger. Some pretend as if they oppose content X because it is "lazy" or "mediocre", but they do not oppose other lazy and other mediocre things. It quickly reveals what they actually oppose.

Amen Mikko. Very, very well put.

You mentioned how PE is more influenced by hip hop these days. Any examples you got and how this influence plays out?

I have been told about fairly recent NY gigs where between bands, it's hip hop being played. Each performing band is basically show in  format of "telling how it is" over not really that experimental sound. The visual look of guys as well. Like this particular topic, you can see that notion of some sort of "street cred" type of approach.

Freak Animal put out also things like SKM-ETR, which was obviously hip hop inspired PE, although 3" on my label less so than full length.

That said, there is very strong current of PE bands that appear more like progression of "cyber grind", rather than anything else. No hip hop, no hardcore, no industrial. Only sort of one dimensional electronic noise + as-vile-as-it-gets content applied on top. I am not sure would I really count that to be really in lineage of "industrial" at all, but as this is lines drawn in water one may just have to accept that it is.

To my recollect, it was 20 years ago, the woman attacked at GBA was with a significant other, who watched the remainder of the set

but harassing a total stranger who also happens to be a female seems cheap to me, and does not possess "sheer energy". It sounds like you are somehow making Con-Dom into some kind of martyr for having the guts to harass a woman and then having to deal with the rejection and ridicule as a result of that, instead of apologizing.

I don't think he was ever in trouble for that? Like Murderous Vision describes: Wife of well known noise artists, and I recall there was other details to this. Some being displeased for using good old KKK related things. The minor discomfort and necessity of tiny bit of resilience of many industrial albums and shows.

Commentors 20 years later, most likely do not know why, to whom and what did actually happen and in what context. If assumption would be that first thing first, apology was/is necessary, I find it both bizarre and sign of utmost corruption of contemporary society showing its ugly face. I think already in this topic was reminded of the Con-Dom Taiwan set, what was closer to incident of empowerment than someone being "harmed".

I find it interesting that several decades work of artists would be narrowed down to couple seconds detail of what one could call performance art. In related cases, perhaps old album cover. Old track title. Make assumption, and feel it would be somehow progressive to make notion and apologies are needed. To whom exactly and for what? If we take that route, would it be appropriate to demand Macronympha apologize No Fun show due violence and chaos? Maybe endlessly pester Bennet for lyrics and abusing african music for financial gain? haha... jeeesus. It is all the same category, and it is all very much today. Yet very very old, tired concept already.

[Major Carew]

Boys will be boys.

[Duncan]

Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art? Would you like to see an artist/performer who stands far away, in the cage or hidden? Would you like to feel comfortable, safely in the crowd during show? And what  about psychological/mental violence in the art? Do you see some borders there too, really?

The borders already exist in that these performances take place before crowds of people who are 99% aware of what to expect from industrial music and are certain to tolerate the behaviour, even hope for it. This is definitely true in the case of Con-Dom. I saw him a few times toward the end of the project's life and he even alluded to this in a panel discussion I saw him attend. The strength of Con-Dom imo lies in the consistency and depth of its concepts, lyrics, presentation across the records and music - not the fact that he would get in some fan's face at a live gig.

Noise hurts... noise has to hurt in every possible way.... If you don't understand that, why do you use this fucking noise?

These sound like rules to me. Borders if you will. Maybe it's not the case for you but in many long years of listening to noise there is much more I gain from it than just some idea that it 'should' be difficult, it 'should' hurt, it 'should' be extreme.  And even in the cases of noise I have seen and experienced where all of those things have been at play they were effective precisely because they did not provide an experience that I was expecting as a listener of noise.

I find it interesting that several decades work of artists would be narrowed down to couple seconds detail of what one could call performance art. In related cases, perhaps old album cover. Old track title. Make assumption, and feel it would be somehow progressive to make notion and apologies are needed. To whom exactly and for what? If we take that route, would it be appropriate to demand Macronympha apologize No Fun show due violence and chaos? Maybe endlessly pester Bennet for lyrics and abusing african music for financial gain? haha... jeeesus. It is all the same category, and it is all very much today.

Has anybody here posited the notion that Dando should be apologising for something he has done? I've seen some pretty valid criticisms of how effective his - or anyone elses - act of pushing people around live may or may not be the concept heavy act its argued to be but nothing else? I agree with you about narrowing decades of an artists work down to a single clip or album cover but it also works in reverse - you could easily imagine that many people have defined Con-Dom's work based upon just as little information as what is said in that clip, never having thought for themselves about whether it works, whether he might be wrong, whether or not the given statements are consistent with all the actions, whether the concepts still hold water 35 years later. No critical engagement at all, just the gospel word of the artist and the received wisdom of how the music is to be understood. These are where the conversations invariably end.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

The borders already exist in that these performances take place before crowds of people who are 99% aware of what to expect from industrial music and are certain to tolerate the behaviour, even hope for it.

Borders (even in the art) will exist always but we (artists and receivers or people) should break them permanently, again and again.

in many long years of listening to noise there is much more I gain from it than just some idea that it 'should' be difficult, it 'should' hurt, it 'should' be extreme.  And even in the cases of noise I have seen and experienced where all of those things have been at play they were effective precisely because they did not provide an experience that I was expecting as a listener of noise.

I didn't want to write that only one reason listening to noise is self-torture. I wanted to write that everyone who want to love noise should know that noise is a (metaphysical) substance to destroy everything surrounded around us (included ourselves). You may listen/use it only for your estethical/hedonistic way but you must know this "noise" has an other goal on other level. Of course you may say that nothing needn't must... then OK... we may talk about subjectivity in perception of noise. And then we can discover that noise and violence don't exist.... Then I may say that noise for me is the pop music (as Masami Akita said) and love is violence - because this emotion interferes with other man.

[murderous_vision]

Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art? Would you like to see an artist/performer who stands far away, in the cage or hidden? Would you like to feel comfortable, safely in the crowd during show? And what  about psychological/mental violence in the art? Do you see some borders there too, really? Noise hurts... noise has to hurt in every possible way.... If you don't understand that, why do you use this fucking noise? I know.... you would like to adopt this fucking, harm noise in acceptable form, like this fucking Judeo-Christian culture which forces or devastating every unwanted shapes/phenomenas. It is sad you write such things.

Really, nothing to get pissy about. Simply, if I am standing at a gig and and a performer throws me to the ground and climbs on top of me, there will be retaliation. I guess that makes me a poser, not worthy of this noise. Although, I am quite sure that Dando realizes that retaliation might become part of the performance as well, or at least I hope he did...

[murderous_vision]

Also, I don't recall there being any trouble over it. Just the guy saying what he was gonna do.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

Really, nothing to get pissy about. Simply, if I am standing at a gig and and a performer throws me to the ground and climbs on top of me, there will be retaliation. I guess that makes me a poser, not worthy of this noise. Although, I am quite sure that Dando realizes that retaliation might become part of the performance as well, or at least I hope he did...

You shouldn't have hope only you should know that you are part of this performance. If he wanted to attack you he would do it before or after this performance.

[whiteheatnoise]

Has anybody here posited the notion that Dando should be apologising for something he has done?

I was certainly not implying that he should apologize, more so just not be using cheap shock tactics like assaulting a female audience member for the sake of art or whatever in the first place. I guess that's why I will always greatly enjoy an act like Incapacitants far greater than any controversial PE act; they can just use themes about banking and other mundane shit and still create noise that is more harsh and extreme than pretty much anything else. That is far more genuine to me, personally.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

for the sake of art or whatever in the first place. I guess that's why I will always greatly enjoy an act like Incapacitants far greater than any controversial PE act; they can just use themes about banking and other mundane shit and still create noise that is more harsh and extreme than pretty much anything else. That is far more genuine to me, personally.

~

Yeah, Incapacitants is perfect example noise "for the sake of art". I love Incapacitants (frankly speaking better their noise shows than records) but, they are doing the same things almost 40 years, still the same, true autoplagiarism. CON-DOM's music maybe isn't such intense and harsh, but, I suppose, left more to discover and thinking.

[Bloated Slutbag]

Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art?

I wouldn't necessarily see this as drawing a border on the art, but possibly (and I think as you later assert) contributing to or augmenting the art. I mean, in a real world slash meaningful sort of way. I think it would probably go without saying that the artist who starts the shit would or possibly should be equally prepared to deal with the repercussions. As part and parcel of the art.

[Bloated Slutbag]

Yeah, Incapacitants is perfect example noise "for the sake of art". I love Incapacitants (frankly speaking better their noise shows than records) but, they are doing the same things almost 40 years, still the same, true autoplagiarism.

I would argue that they are most assuredly not doing the same thing. I am constantly surprised by what they do next, at least recordings-wise. Other than that, agreed!

[NaturalOrthodoxy]

I think it would probably go without saying that the artist who starts the shit would or possibly should be equally prepared to deal with the repercussions. As part and parcel of the art.

Spot on. If Dando truly meant for someone to fight back as the ultimate goal of his performance, I'm sure he ultimately understands that most people would think him a dickhead for his actions regardless of the artistic intent. It places no border on art for the artist to understand that their actions are inappropriate when that is the very point of said actions. Or if there is a border there, an artist like Dando doesn't really care about it.

This links back to Mikko's point about the toughness of weathering the repercussions of such actions. You could look at it and say that to voluntarily be the villain by any civilised standards, and sacrifice dignity in the eyes of many, along with any recourse to defence of his actions, that's the "tough" aspect of it. Remove that taboo and the attack becomes pretty impotent and weak, no more transgressive than a rock singer high fiving willing audience members in the front row.

(Bloated Slutbag, please excuse me if I have missed your point entirely or used your words to make a separate point)

That said-

Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Con-Dom is probably my favourite PE act, but this tale is so fucking cringe and I would hope these actions not emulated by other acts in the future (not least because it is now just so played out as a tactic). But the points I made above just means that Dando probably does not give a shit what I or anyone else thinks, thus no border can really be imposed by condemning it. Even to [quite rightly] retaliate violently would only validate the artistic intention of the original act. You could even argue that the transgression we value so much can only exist with the taboos we impose ourselves, and we each have our own levels of what we deem acceptable. If I had acted in the way Dando did at that gig i would probably understand that people would want to beat me up.

I should also admit that in my earlier gigs I employed the tactic of lightly antagonising the crowd, which always went down well, but now I cringe at the idea of pretending to be a PE "tough guy" on stage. There are better, subtler tactics that newer artists like me should try to employ for an immersive and aggressive presence on stage.

[murderous_vision]

Honestly, he should have though. I am a fan of Con-Dom's music, but that is behavior fitting of an ass kicking.

Really? Would you like to see any borders in the music/art?

I wouldn't necessarily see this as drawing a border on the art, but possibly (and I think as you later assert) contributing to or augmenting the art. I mean, in a real world slash meaningful sort of way. I think it would probably go without saying that the artist who starts the shit would or possibly should be equally prepared to deal with the repercussions. As part and parcel of the art.

Precisely