The Rift Between PE and HN

Started by HONOR_IS_KING!, July 16, 2020, 02:34:59 AM

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FreakAnimalFinland

#15
Quote from: WCN on July 16, 2020, 12:50:21 PM
As for criticism of the "content" of PE, that's a whole different beast. I'm sure I'm not going to cover all my ground here, but my attraction to PE and the "darker side" of noise as Mikko has put it, is that in its best cases, it gives honest language to evil and power - something which is rarely done in art. The thing is, I find that it often stops there, and the argument that it's "dealing with" certain topics to be an overstatement for most PE artists. Rather in most cases it is simply exploiting them. This is certainly OK and can be fascinating and, depending on what kind of person you are and what your values are, continuously so. But for others, the amount of time needed to wallow in this specific  pool is limited.

I recall Cipher stating in social media in event of Keith of Mania/Taint passing away, and I quote it from there: "Keith represents a voice in the noise/industrial lexicon which I fear is being pushed into a corner - the last place he would or should ever be - and I'm so pleased to see so many of you share your memories of him and his work."

I don't think there is other musical genre that deal with society or existence in general like old school industrial / PE. Of course, I am not aware of every artists and possibly not every genre of sound, but as far as I know it is fairly unique.

If there would be for example, death metal group making songs involving somewhat related topics, you can bet it has very different discourse going on. More akin to sleazy exploitation films and reaching level of comedy, than... say "dark". This is of course not to dismiss the juvenile sleaze. It has its place.

Anyways, I have so often repeated my conclusions, but I'd say that PE is rarely telling how it is. There is so much on responsibility of listener that it really is not the flaw of art itself if it doesn't always work. One analysis on how art is being dealt with, is that one commit in it. Learns to experience as see. Other way is just swallow it. Besides these, of course, is just dismiss and reject. The ones, who just flat out reject stating that there is nothing to be found: I get it as personal statement. That's as far as it is accurate.

In danger of crossing over with tough guy topic, I must say that one absolutely can not convince someone, why "negative energy" would be thing to revolve with IF he absolutely hates all that. You know, how to explain the atmosphere of bonehead live-show to someone who absolutely doesn't want to see fights that may escalate to level of... lets say not just someone falling on their asses in the pit. Such negative energy and bad vibes is something that most people do not need or want. Often even oppose. Either by laughing for it's stupidity or being cautious of its harmful nature. One can not deny this dark side of culture has substance quite different from things that are predominantly positive, creative and constructive. Of course I am not advocation noise shows should be of negative vibes of this type. Not at all.

Industrial/PE, for me, has the both merged. To various degrees. The fact that artist may not be "telling how it is", is not lack of substance. It may just mean that just to swallow it, makes little sense. And why Cipher quote was necessary, I firmly believe that there is nowadays vastly more intent to just swallow or/and reject, not to commit.
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ImpulsyStetoskopu

#16
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 16, 2020, 01:19:29 PM
Industrial/PE, for me, has the both merged. To various degrees. The fact that artist may not be "telling how it is", is not lack of substance. It may just mean that just to swallow it, makes little sense. And why Cipher quote was necessary, I firmly believe that there is nowadays vastly more intent to just swallow or/and reject, not to commit.

I don't share such opinion. I believe you mean "industrial" as so called "old school industrial" or something what becomes from TG, SPK, CV rock music tradition. If so, PE is dramaticaly different than this "industrial". Not only  in shape of music esthetics, but in out-of-sound context, so in the area of relation to people,  society and culture on the every level. So called industrial touched similar topics as PE but, I hope I will understand well, it made because of need change humanity, correct culture, transgression to the better life. I think that PE hadn't such ambitions, had different goals. PE didn't care about changing human/culture, PE glorified all anticulture phenomenas because of radical nihilism and hard-line attitude which was directed against humanity without will change or correct it. Pure misogyny and misanthropy with terror culture on every level without any form of spirituality which was so important in industrial too. So this is reason why PE is more "industrial" and "anticulture" and more true wrecker of civilisation than hippie TG who wanted to change this world.

FreakAnimalFinland

Although doesn't cover all intentions of PE artists (or those who are generally put into this category), but overall impression may be fine. There is rarely *pure* categories, so it is more splitting hairs than talking of the reality.



E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

ImpulsyStetoskopu

#18
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 16, 2020, 02:25:10 PM
Although doesn't cover all intentions of PE artists (or those who are generally put into this category), but overall impression may be fine. There is rarely *pure* categories, so it is more splitting hairs than talking of the reality.

Purism (not mention a style in paintings) doesn't exist in the art, especially in the music. But you admit that the beginnings in PE were "pure"? Talking about reality is boring :)

WCN

Quote from: New Forces on July 16, 2020, 03:56:21 AM
I think it may have something to do with people newer to experimental music, coming out of metal/punk/hardcore, who are chasing their initial interest in power-electronics.

I think this is a big factor too, at least based on my observations of customers from the distro. There is a significant portion of people who go exclusively for the newer popular PE/industrial related stuff, and I get the sense they are younger and newer to this general field of music. There are not many who will strictly only buy HN stuff, but rather many people who go for noise stuff with rather eclectic tastes.

On a personal level, this is where my distaste/disinterest in a lot of PE mainly comes from. A lot it, particularly the newer stuff, seems very influenced by hardcore and metal, which is something I can only take in small doses.
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Eigen Bast

Where does this rift manifest aside from this forum?

FreakAnimalFinland

Quote from: Eigen Bast on July 16, 2020, 07:32:12 PM
Where does this rift manifest aside from this forum?

Labels, distros, podcasts, zines, gigs, festivals...?
I would assume rift is almost smallest on this forum?
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

Bloated Slutbag

I couldn't say for sure if there were a rift or not, but I would certainly hope so!
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

burdizzo

I suppose that is a reasonable way of looking at it. Harsh Noisers will be the ones w/ BLM on their facebook profiles?!

Stipsi

It could be political?
In my experience (with harsh noise friends/producers), quite often they don't listen to PE because it's "nazi/fascist crap" (of course most of them see nazis everywhere), and it's pretty common that a lot of them automatically associated PE with far right contents.
North Central
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Daddy's Entertainment.
PERVERT AND PROUD.

dse666@yahoo.com

accidental

I don't even know what PE and HN is. I think the biggest rift i notice is between myself and SI and this nonsense. In a dream i might accidentally create a rift between noise and HN. Where HN killed the already old cow that was noise. Unless Macro cover bands gets you excited. And when whatever-it-was became PE (as defined here) you got a finn with G'n'R & RAC albums in one paw and Adolf in the other. I woke up and realized all of it sucks. But most of all i felt embarrassed for posting here.

Zeno Marx

It's interesting --and I don't say this rhetorically, because it is happening everywhere these days, or at least it is more common in my experience-- that anyone would argue that, or at least question that, this isn't happening because they personally haven't experienced it or don't/can't see it.  Others are saying it is happening and are sharing experiences that it is happening.  It's like this twilight zone perspective extension "out of sight, out of mind" blown into another region of "it isn't in my experience, so I question its existence."  A culture that lacks both self-awareness and empathy is straight-up blind and purely and entirely selfish.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

C601

Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 18, 2020, 08:40:08 PM
It's interesting --and I don't say this rhetorically, because it is happening everywhere these days, or at least it is more common in my experience-- that anyone would argue that, or at least question that, this isn't happening because they personally haven't experienced it or don't/can't see it.  Others are saying it is happening and are sharing experiences that it is happening.  It's like this twilight zone perspective extension "out of sight, out of mind" blown into another region of "it isn't in my experience, so I question its existence."  A culture that lacks both self-awareness and empathy is straight-up blind and purely and entirely selfish.
Well put

Eigen Bast

I think that's a weird read of some innocuous comments. Who in this thread has even shared a single experience related to this "rift" beyond some anectdotal commentary on aversion to content? What labels, festivals, zines are actively dividing fans of these disparate genres? I don't fuck with social media though, so maybe these battles are being fought in a realm beyond my reckoning.

I wish there was a true rift! I wish me and the harsh noise gang were going over to the PE bar to toss molotovs through the windows later, but alas...all I have is this thread...

Zeno Marx

#29
Quote from: Eigen Bast on July 19, 2020, 12:41:34 AM
I think that's a weird read of some innocuous comments. Who in this thread has even shared a single experience related to this "rift" beyond some anectdotal commentary on aversion to content? What labels, festivals, zines are actively dividing fans of these disparate genres? I don't fuck with social media though, so maybe these battles are being fought in a realm beyond my reckoning.

I wish there was a true rift! I wish me and the harsh noise gang were going over to the PE bar to toss molotovs through the windows later, but alas...all I have is this thread...
You're right.  As I poorly worded it, I maybe implied people are sharing experiences of physical altercations?  I doubt that.  I hope not.  That would be silly.  But FreakAnimalFinland, and others, thus the discussion, have noticed it in spirit.  Does that make it any less real or unworthy of discussion?  Doesn't seem like it.

*maybe "rift" isn't the best term to use for this discussion.  I continue to be baffled that noiseheads don't have interest in all things experimental.  Or ambient folk locking themselves in a closet of interest.  Or whoever with similar limits.  So what do I know?
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.