Art, originality, modernity, propaganda

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I am note sure about this.  If any lesson can be drawn from art history, it seems that it should be that every declaration of a "limit" in any particular medium has been surpassed and/or modified.

] Modernism

I am not getting what exactly is point of speculating on modernism in relation to noise/industrial. I feel that there was (and in few cases is) the modernist feel there, but most often noise observing the failures of modernism.

There certainly is still remaining spirit of creation of new forms of art, religion, philosophy, and social organization, but now exists bounded by realistic perspective of reduced into counterculture - which certainly no longer is the same. If new art, new religion, philosophy and social organization creates parallel society or subculture, rather than seek to totally change the existing mainstream. Vast difference. Noise almost exclusively seems to fit into this, rather than modernism or avantgarde. It may be even unfortunately, when the unability to even think alternative way dominates even the fringe underground.

author=JLIAT link=topic=10857.msg88581#msg88581 date=1595747657]
Even the modernist idea of progress has gone - given this modernist limit. Ergo many galleries of Modern art, Tate Modern e.g. no longer exhibit works chronologically. Which is odd as there was a development in modernism of what went before. So i see no difference to this uncreative limit to be found in say HNW and Vomir. (TNB also?) It sounds like meaningless noise, OK read the text, what does it say, "its meaningless noise".  Not surprisingly then Romain Perrot has ventured BACK - in his case to using a guitar and "singing". "Shit folk" is it called?

If modernism is gone, if the limit that the idea expressed in its teleologic vibe is crushed, why spend so much time talking about laws of modernist development?

Black canvas was no end of any kind. Silent track was no end of anything in particular. It something merely in modernist ideal, yet you dawn a dripping pussy to black canvas, and suddenly vitality of act crushed the nerdy art critics and reminded that black canvas was no conclusion for anything.

[JLIAT]

I think Bennett was either mistaken in using the term 'plagiarism'  - which is knowingly passing someone else's actual work off as ones own, or- perhaps worse claiming some authority of ownership to what is 'power electronics'. Terms like 'Industrial' and HNW define a genre or movement, are categories. So Cubists didn't plagiarise  Picasso, or Berg plagiarise Schoenberg .. etc. Or whoever is credited with being the original Metal band... but it was Picasso who said "Lesser artists borrow; great artists steal".

[JLIAT]

I am not getting what exactly is point of speculating on modernism in relation to noise/industrial. I feel that there was (and in few cases is) the modernist feel there, but most often noise observing the failures of modernism.

It was specifically aimed at Bennett's claim to be Avant Garde. He himself admits in the interview he finds it hard for Whitehouse to shock audiences anymore, and seeks audiences who do not expect the PE antics of Whitehouse. Perhaps impossible these days. I add to that his mistaken idea to shock is to be avant garde, he is using (incorrectly in the latter case) modernist criteria. I think similar 'modernist' justifications are made for the idea of progress in what is generally termed noise, from industrial through PE to HN and finally HNW.  

My point is if valid then HNW marks the limit of 'make it new', 'less is more' criteria of modernism... if not then fine, the term is 'post modern' where anything goes. But to then claim to be 'in the front' is either ironic or mistaken. There is no direction.

There certainly is still remaining spirit of creation of new forms of art, religion, philosophy, and social organization, but now exists bounded by realistic perspective of reduced into counterculture - which certainly no longer is the same. If new art, new religion, philosophy and social organization creates parallel society or subculture, rather than seek to totally change the existing mainstream. Vast difference. Noise almost exclusively seems to fit into this, rather than modernism or avantgarde. It may be even unfortunately, when the unability to even think alternative way dominates even the fringe underground.

I pretty much agree with that, post modern art can certainly be creative, diverse and different. What is different seems to be no longer a consensus of the direction, an idea of progress is replaced by change and multiplicity. Perhaps even the term 'new' - as different, but not 'better'.

Philosophy is a good example, Wittgenstein sort to cure us of philosophy, forbidding talking of such things as metaphysics, which is however alive and well if no longer competing with science.. science the paradigm that modernism had, that each new creation in art rendered the previous obsolete. Simply that whilst science maybe operates as such, art does not. Kosuth was wrong. A performance now using  intonarumori is IMO valid as art - hell even as noise.

Modernism saw little or no value in the past, exemplified in architecture in the UK by post war development where far far more old buildings were demolished in the name of progress than the luftwaffe managed to destroy.

Even the modernist idea of progress has gone - given this modernist limit. Ergo many galleries of Modern art, Tate Modern e.g. no longer exhibit works chronologically. Which is odd as there was a development in modernism of what went before. So i see no difference to this uncreative limit to be found in say HNW and Vomir. (TNB also?) It sounds like meaningless noise, OK read the text, what does it say, "its meaningless noise".  Not surprisingly then Romain Perrot has ventured BACK - in his case to using a guitar and "singing". "Shit folk" is it called?

If modernism is gone, if the limit that the idea expressed in its teleologic vibe is crushed, why spend so much time talking about laws of modernist development?

Black canvas was no end of any kind. Silent track was no end of anything in particular. It something merely in modernist ideal, yet you dawn a dripping pussy to black canvas, and suddenly vitality of act crushed the nerdy art critics and reminded that black canvas was no conclusion for anything.

The Black canvases were part on the end of modernist painting.  No one composes Wagnerian operas these days, "Debussy visited Bayreuth but soon distanced himself from the composer, claiming, "Wagner was a sunset that was mistaken for a sunrise.""

I'm not sure of the dripping pussy thing?  Jeff Koons...?



And this is mainstream ART.  Now.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

It was specifically aimed at Bennett's claim to be Avant Garde. (...) I think similar 'modernist' justifications are made for the idea of progress in what is generally termed noise, from industrial through PE to HN and finally HNW.

Ah yes. Then it does make sense. He may have made those statements when it remained possible to do so.

Possible to see things in that light, which has been invalid cause for loong time.
Which leads to:

pretty much agree with that, post modern art can certainly be creative, diverse and different. What is different seems to be no longer a consensus of the direction, an idea of progress is replaced by change and multiplicity. Perhaps even the term 'new' - as different, but not 'better'.

Which would be easy to state, that there never was consensus that from industrial through PE to HN and finally HNW was progression and further more that it was progress for better. If there are couple artists who claimed so, who entertain few dozen purists, it remains only as entertaining manifesto of intent by mentioned artists, but no depiction of what is happening in general.
You have pretty much rest of people and perhaps listeners who didn't see it as progression or even refinement, but this exact thing one can only describe as modernist trap.
Notion that there is progress, and all progress is good, and new equals to better.

I think in context of noise and industrial, it was rejected long ago. Especially at the age when most things new simply equal to empty commodity. Whatever surface this commodity has, in its core element and substance, it is just itself: Newness as commodity itself. Void of any other value.

In context of industrial, there has been relevant players already decades ago shouted slogan: Back to basics! What some thought was seek for new, probably was not. It was misguided perception based on fact that there used to be era when anything new was more interesting than same old oil painting of jesus christ repeated till eternity. Everything new was better than bleak factory work and sunday church as form of culture. Anything, but traditional, anything but the done, was better. This illusion is crushed long ago. New does not equal better. New does not equal even "progress".

For me, which is subjective experience of course, is that industrial noise represent question: what then? It hits you with a lot of possibilities and many things reject the optimism of progress.

I'm not sure of the dripping pussy thing?  Jeff Koons...?
And this is mainstream ART.  Now.  

"Now", isn't it like you know.. 30 years ago? Jeff Koons, cicciolina, this is ancient past. It may give impression of "recent", as it has other kind of vitality than black empty canvas, that has mostly historical significance. So yes, cicciolina pussy pick, I take that anytime over ton of stuff seen in exhibitions as "new ideas".

[JLIAT]

It was specifically aimed at Bennett's claim to be Avant Garde. (...) I think similar 'modernist' justifications are made for the idea of progress in what is generally termed noise, from industrial through PE to HN and finally HNW.

Ah yes. Then it does make sense. He may have made those statements when it remained possible to do so.

Possible to see things in that light, which has been invalid cause for loong time.

The one interview where he claims Whitehouse was Avant Garde and more recent PE doesn't 'get it' and is plagiarising Whitehouse is from 2003, and in another presentation of 2016 he seems to maintain his position re music, noise and PE. This relates to the origins of PE in @ 1980 when the idea of an Avant Garde was very questionable and modernity was seen to have been completed.

Which leads to:

pretty much agree with that, post modern art can certainly be creative, diverse and different. What is different seems to be no longer a consensus of the direction, an idea of progress is replaced by change and multiplicity. Perhaps even the term 'new' - as different, but not 'better'.

Which would be easy to state, that there never was consensus that from industrial through PE to HN and finally HNW was progression and further more that it was progress for better. If there are couple artists who claimed so, who entertain few dozen purists, it remains only as entertaining manifesto of intent by mentioned artists, but no depiction of what is happening in general.

Very questionable if such artists who maintained both purity and extreme radicalism  seem to be originators of HN and HNW. (which maybe accounted for serious academic interest)

You have pretty much rest of people and perhaps listeners who didn't see it as progression or even refinement, but this exact thing one can only describe as modernist trap.
Notion that there is progress, and all progress is good, and new equals to better.

Then they see this in post-modernist terms - if they do. I see elsewhere though evidence of a rift, between genres. And I cant see how a rift can not involve ideas of 'quality'... "So we are head lining  a show and playing with a tonne of punk bands that hate our guts, nothing new there." posted in this forum July 9th. I could be wrong - hope i am - and see the noise scene as tolerant of diversity.

I think in context of noise and industrial, it was rejected long ago. Especially at the age when most things new simply equal to empty commodity. Whatever surface this commodity has, in its core element and substance, it is just itself: Newness as commodity itself. Void of any other value.

In context of industrial, there has been relevant players already decades ago shouted slogan: Back to basics! What some thought was seek for new, probably was not. It was misguided perception based on fact that there used to be era when anything new was more interesting than same old oil painting of jesus christ repeated till eternity. Everything new was better than bleak factory work and sunday church as form of culture. Anything, but traditional, anything but the done, was better. This illusion is crushed long ago. New does not equal better. New does not equal even "progress".

Agreed.

For me, which is subjective experience of course, is that industrial noise represent question: what then? It hits you with a lot of possibilities and many things reject the optimism of progress.

I'm not sure of the dripping pussy thing?  Jeff Koons...?
And this is mainstream ART.  Now. 

"Now", isn't it like you know.. 30 years ago? Jeff Koons, cicciolina, this is ancient past. It may give impression of "recent", as it has other kind of vitality than black empty canvas, that has mostly historical significance. So yes, cicciolina pussy pick, I take that anytime over ton of stuff seen in exhibitions as "new ideas".

Well i could have used other less well known examples from more recent work, but the use of sex, perversion violence has been the hallmark of much post-modern work and still is. "cartoonish depictions of gay sex" Paul Yore -   Naallini Malani - "The shows title ... refers to the scream of a young girl being violently raped..."  "all works 2019... an erect torso with exposed visera..."  etc.  all exhib Feb 2020. And historical significance, after history ended?  "reject the optimism of progress."  Agreed!

[theotherjohn]

One could argue that painting pussies is not that much different to painting caves? L'Origine du Monde, indeed. Pretty sure Keenan made a similar connection in the revised edition of England's Hidden Reverse.

Re: Koons, the later history between him and Cicciolina and his subsequent involvement with the ICMEC is far more interesting to me than the Made In Heaven photos.