Ethics among underground

[accidental]

So a while back i discovered that the label boss of a well known underground label since the 90s was selling some 90s rarities on discogs. Limited edition cassettes that don't come up for sale often. Was not kept in print beyond the 90s and not made in large editions. High prices when they do come up for sale. So i assumed leftovers or "new old stock". And upon asking that's what i was told. Only to find out that all of them are not leftovers but newly made copies sold as "originals" and priced as originals. There could be a debate about this but i 'm pretty sure i'm right. I brought this up with the guy but he claimed it not to be the case.

I don't know the guy and have big respect for the creative output both as label and a musician. Seems like a pretty nice guy too. But personally i think this is BS and the behavior of a con man.

If i was to lay down the cash i rather give it to him/label than some trickster on discogs. But that's based on getting what i paid for and not being played for a fool. One can ofcourse discuss with the idea of playing with collector scum or if you're really fucked even see it as some kind of art action. One can twist this back and forth & left and right, but personally i can not end up at a different place than what i wrote above.

Selling let's say 15 of these on discogs for prices of originals would probably generate the same kind of money as if selling close to a hundred for 10 a pop as a reissued. So fast easy cash with less effort. But several, if not all of these releases would likely sell out 100 to 200 copies if reissued on cassette with a simple J-card. Like the recent Hijokaidan/Incaps reissue. And it could draw new eyes to label and it's current output.

Just curious to hear some opinions on this. Starting point being a label/label boss doing this. Not collectors conning collectors that their home made copy is an original and so on.

[HateSermon]

I'd have to agree with you. That's some pretty weak shit. If I'm paying for an og copy of something, I want it to be from that actual time in history.
Another thing that has seemed suspect to me is labels "finding" extra copies of a sold out release. I'm sure sometimes its legit but see it so often, especially in the black metal community, that it makes me think otherwise. Like is your warehouse really that unorganized or are you reserving copies to sell at a later date for quick cash?

[Zeno Marx]

A member of a highly respected early German industrial project and label was suspected of doing this a long time ago on ebay.  Can't recall if they used Discogs as well.  I can't remember if it was ever confirmed or not, but I do know it soured a lot of people who collected and were heavy into that whole world of projects because it was so suspicious.  Cassettes limited to 7, 8, or 10 copies in the 80s, and more than one copy selling in mint/perfect/made yesterday condition.  At first, the final bids were nuts, as in hundreds of dollars, and then that tapered off a bit.  I believe it caused some drama between members as well, but that too was not entirely clear.

By the time something like this happens, the people involved simply do not care at all about reputation or legacy.  Money trumps it all.  When an artist, or label, works a long time to develop their style, their reputation, their brand, and their legacy, all to throw it away in a matter of a couple weeks to a couple of months.  I normally frown upon talk of legacy, but when something so uncommon is thrown in a fire over what is essentially not that much money, thinking short term rather than allowing the long game to play out, it's a little sad to watch.

[accidental]

Should add that i'll not name the label. And i'm not sure my proof would hold up in court. But as i wrote i'm pretty sure i'm right. Either way it's a interesting topic aside from my episode with this label. And as you touched on others might have done it in the past. I don't think it's enough, or done in such a way that it would destroy the legacy with whom i'm refering to.

The reason for doing something like this could be many. It might not be possible to do proper reissue because you can not get a hold of the creators etc So if you have one leftover copy and decide to make a few more...but then again, a fair price wouldn't hurt if done that way.

I've bought many 20-40 year old releases looking brand new. Most don't play their stuff, or it's played a few times and then shelved. If it's stored good and maybe sealed in plastic it can look brand new decades later. In my case there are more factors involved than it just looking brand new.

@ HateSermon
I'm not in the know, but i've heard some sketchy stuff with current hiphop labels "saving" some copies and later pushing them for an inflated price when sold out.

[Into_The_Void]

That´s the same problem with demo tapes on dubbed tape sold for ridiculous prices on Discogs. But are these tapes supposed to come with pro-inlay or something which could allow distinguishing an original from a dub? Or do these bootlegs been factory-printed? Very lame behaviour either way, such shit is just poison in the underground scene.

[Theodore]

Yeah, POISON, that after injected in most cases stays in circulation ! And my opinion is that such cases should definetely be exposed, with names ! If not, they will just continue doing it, and maybe others follow their example too. Even if they keep doing it, At least some people will know and the number of their potential victim group will be reduced. - It's a fraud. So low-level and pathetic that if it wasnt our money / us victims, i would feel sorry for them.

It's OK and appreciated to keep something in print, or make new dubs / kinda of repress. But say it. Especially when you are asked about it.

As someone who spends his little money on tapes i would like to know who does this, to avoid him.

[Goat93]

@ HateSermon
I'm not in the know, but i've heard some sketchy stuff with current hiphop labels "saving" some copies and later pushing them for an inflated price when sold out.

Thats pretty normal since the beginning of "collecting", since its easiest to get Money fast. The "First press; Special, Die hard, whatever" Editions pops up from that Source, too.
Actualy a lot of People really need this kind of Collecting to break even with their releases. The Idiotism to spend insane Money for "rare" Stuff holds many Scenes together and help to survive in the First place. Even selling old Tapes for insane Prices. I know a lot of Sellers, who finance their Label with "rare" Stuff, when the normal Stuff won't sell good.

And to me, a copied Demo Tape is a copied Demo Tape you can copy as often as you want. Its the Purpose of the Tape in the First Place.
(of course, only if its really a Demo Tape, not a limited, numbered Edition specialy for Collecting in the First Place)

[accidental]

Just to be clear. This has nothing to do with Demos. Im talking about official releases from well known label. Not done in a big scale but nevertheless.

Limited edition releases. I can not say for all of the releases sold. But i know the ones i'm most interested in did sell out during the 90s. Never intended to "stay in print" or made on demand. Has been unavailable for decades. Claimed to be and sold & priced as originals but in my strongest conviction are not.

[Johann]

A lot of this seems to have to deal with dissolution of the network and vast increase of people interested in the scene, even though the number is still low in a sense. I'll agree it's disingenuous to dub new copies and pass them as old at high prices, especially considering (and as stated earlier) that one could sell them for 10 or 20 dollars a piece and still make some dough. However if a dissolved label sells their archive copies at a higher price I don't really see a problem, I don't think any 90s tape labels thought they'd shove away a bunch for when they could sell for more. Especially because I don't think they owe the consumer anything anyway, especially when it's some internet transaction. If they were fair you'd just see it relisted for more by some vulture prick later that week.

Music sells for more than it ever had in my lifetime because of things like discogs, I was listening to some pop music, Sam and Dave to be exact, and thinking that buying that LP 15 years ago would've cost me between 25 and 35 bucks depending on the condition but now it's probably well over 100 online. Between inflation and the vampiric discogs mentality I check out less stuff than I ever have, it's not worth the risk to buy an LP of a new artist and pay around 40 USD after shipping for something that might not deliver, or worse to pay twice that after it's sold out. That might be harsh, but it was different when you bought a 6 dollar tape or 12 dollar LP, affordable enough to take risk.

I have massive respect for someone like Tommy Carlson that spit in the eyes of vulture/collector dynamic and continue to churn out tapes at extremely reasonable (to the level of probably loss of money) prices because of the love they have for sound. The answer to me is pretty simple, if you buy something that cost you a lot and is out of print just dub copies for your interested friends, I'm not saying sell them. But we get so protective of our collections and the values we set the trap for ourselves. Sure that won't satiate some collectors who need the original but there's no reason not to have fun with it, change the artwork...at least then it's better than some lame YouTube link or MP3 on your cellphone.

But regarding what "accidental" is saying and assuming I know and have bought from the same seller in question it was depressing on a level to receive some tapes (some of which seemed genuinely original) that did not seem to have the mark of age. It definitely left me feeling a bit ripped off, but ultimately I wanted the sounds on the tapes and I don't resell my shit. My family will probably throw it all away when I pass on anyway so it is what it is. Happy to hear it for the now.

[accidental]

@nusjut I think the admin should delete any speculation like yours. As i wrote, i won't tell. But i'll comment yours since it's none of those and SFCR is absolutely great. Have nothing but love for the guy. Great to deal with still today. (won't deny/comment on any more speculation)

@Johann I think that way of thinking and the "i wanted the sounds"-argument is (unconsciously?) accepting this to some extent. I buy for the same reason. But don't tolerate this. It's not the end of the world or the worst a label/dealer can do. But it's not acceptable.

As Zeno Marx wrote, when a label does this they risk their rep to go out the window in a second.

[Theodore]

RE: "I want the sounds" , it doesnt make much sense to me, cause i bet noone would accept to pay for example 79EUR for a Sodality - Beyond Unknown Pleasures CD and recieve a clone CDR of it instead. - I know this is not an exact analogy / example but it's very close to make my point about.

@nusjut I think the admin should delete any speculation like yours. As i wrote, i won't tell. But i'll comment yours since it's none of those and SFCR is absolutely great. Have nothing but love for the guy. Great to deal with still today. (won't deny/comment on any more speculation)

I am sure many have dealt with the guy / label you have doubts about and have an excellent opinion for them. That doesnt mean you are wrong about your experience with them neither that you shouldnt be allowed to share it. IMO such things should be talked openly and in any case is better than existing as 'rumours' or 'guess who' . If nothing else, maybe that's even better for the 'suspect' / 'the other part' / call it what you like too, he can tell his side as well ... Speaking generally now. I dont know about mentioned guys, neither yours. Though i would like to learn, and people who know to speak specifically about their experiences. - Noone will change his bad ethics if these only have good consequences for them [money] . Who would do ?

[Johann]

@Theodore/@accidental

I agree with you both, but the reason I say "I wanted the sounds" and resign myself to some level of acceptance is that I do not know for certain due to them being tapes. I can only suspect based on a gut instinct, in the same way many of us know bootlegged or alternate editions of broken flag tapes to exist. If it were a format such as a CD to CD-R thing I'd definitely cry foul and demand my money back, but I lack the ability to check my copies against other originals so I just am left uncertain.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Thing about the "old tapes" is slightly curious when talking of items that were distributed with master + covers type of thing. Lets say what would be difference of buying Con-Dom tape that was dubbed by Dando in 1990 or dubbed by Dando in 2010? It is as original as tape can be, if specific tapes were always "self dubbed on demand" by the artist. Also notion of "original" is quite shady if you'd get AWB tape dubbed by Open Wound. Perhaps decade later. Official and with permission, sure, but collectors may think how to think about it.

I guess this refers more to behavior, like certain newer Aussie label auctioning freshly dubbed tapes as rare originals to finance some drug use, right? That type of thing seems rip off, but there is huge grey area of old tapes where you can't quite set any rules what really is the original tape, is method of distribution was different and there was no specific edition that is "limited to XXX" from one manufacturer.


What comes to labels selling archives, I know that in some cases, it is done out of absolute necessity. It is not like items would be meant to be sold, but a lot of guys, like myself, keep 2-3 copies of all things in archive. They are not meant to be for sale, but if there would be absolutely drastic need of money or moving to smaller place where you simply can't storage all the stuff... There really is very few reasons why should keep 5 copies of each test pressing taking room in storage... Or 2nd back-up copy of something which may not be needed. I doubt it is always intentional to "maximize profits".  It would be just foolish to sell everything to next guy who'll just flip them in discogs with 10 times the price he paid you.

I don't really like the current day habit of selling test presses for huge amounts of money or stashing part of pressing to be sold at higher prices later on, but I also realize these might have been saved by publisher for other reasons. Doing personal trades, giving gift to people etc. If they end up publicly sold due unexpected reasons, then like said, it may be good to ask price that guarantees it to go into actual use, and not for hands of next dealer.

[Andrew McIntosh]

Actualy a lot of People really need this kind of Collecting to break even with their releases. The Idiotism to spend insane Money for "rare" Stuff holds many Scenes together and help to survive in the First place. Even selling old Tapes for insane Prices. I know a lot of Sellers, who finance their Label with "rare" Stuff, when the normal Stuff won't sell good.

Good grief, has it really come to that?

[accidental]

Also notion of "original" is quite shady...//

I guess this refers more to behavior, like certain newer Aussie label auctioning freshly dubbed tapes as rare originals to finance some drug use, right? That type of thing seems rip off, but there is huge grey area of old tapes where you can't quite set any rules what really is the original tape, is method of distribution was different and there was no specific edition that is "limited to XXX" from one manufacturer.

Agree with basically everything you wrote including the grey area of what's an original and so on.

Let me repeat myself though. These releases has not been made on demand throughout the years. They have been unavailable from label for 20+ years. Rarely if ever available on second hand market. Most of them are not numbered, but done limited during the 90s. All are said to be leftover copies. Which absolutely could be the case. Only a few of them are in high demand. The others not likely to sell fast at prices asked.

We are talking about two handful of releases. I have bought three and passed on another after receiving pictures of it and receiving the first three i ordered. Of the three i suspect one to actually be an original. For the others, the cassettes used etc make me highly doubt they are leftovers. So not going to name label. Benefit of a doubt. But clues can be picked up from my posts to make people ask questions before placing an order. The one i passed on is the only one with several recorded sales at discogs. And it's still available. It's also the one which would carry the least doubts of not being an original.

If i should speculate i think one leftover copy/release was found and oppertunity was taken to make a few more. I would not compare this at all with the label from down under. Though maybe i'm missing the similarty? Does anything on that label generate above stock price? If i'm not mistaken by who you're referring to, those titles seems to have been made more 'in demand' kind of style even though a first edition is often described.