Mental Illness Representation in PE/Noise

[Andrew McIntosh]

Photos and portraits with other people and self-portraits were 100% as important as his sound. What other express with complex texts and manifesto he did with his body and aestetic.

I know. I was making the point that that wasn't all he did. But there's also a qualitative difference between what he did with his photographs and someone just doing "a selfy", so even if it was all he did, there wouldn't be much of a comparison.

But Marco's work overall also raises a bit of a question about mental health. Here was a chap absolutely obsessed with Death, however he imagined it, to the point where he consciously created his own. I don't know if he ever did get any kind of diagnosis but I bet there'd be mental health experts (and a lot of amateurs) who'd say that he had issues, compared with whatever normal's supposed to be.

If it's right that there are people who are claiming to have certain mental illnesses but don't really (and I have no idea how many such people there are, not sure how you'd measure something like that), what about people who probably are on the extreme end of the spectrum but are never diagnosed and are going about whatever their business is? And is it possible there are such people in Industrial/Noise? Bit of a loaded question I suppose but I thought it worth asking.

[tiny_tove]

And is it possible there are such people in Industrial/Noise? Bit of a loaded question I suppose but I thought it worth asking.

IN Italy claiming to be sick has been a trend for some time, but most of these people are completely ok with their lives,

[Andrew McIntosh]

IN Italy claiming to be sick has been a trend for some time, but most of these people are completely ok with their lives,

I meant the other thing, people who do have psychological problems but are never diagnosed and don't even think they have problems. I was wondering if there were such people in Industrial/Noise.

I think it would be quite common for people who go through their lives with probably treatable issues but never get around to being diagnosed, for all sorts of reasons. The way a lot of people behave, especially online, strikes me that there's a lot of mental illness around that isn't being recognised.

[Cranial Blast]

IN Italy claiming to be sick has been a trend for some time, but most of these people are completely ok with their lives,

I meant the other thing, people who do have psychological problems but are never diagnosed and don't even think they have problems. I was wondering if there were such people in Industrial/Noise.

I think it would be quite common for people who go through their lives with probably treatable issues but never get around to being diagnosed, for all sorts of reasons. The way a lot of people behave, especially online, strikes me that there's a lot of mental illness around that isn't being recognised.

I think it's beneficial and especially in America to not get diagnosed with anything by any of these doctors and fly under the radar if need be for two reasons. One of which reason I don't think there is really much in the way of real help to begin with and second of all, once somebody has let someone else diagnose them and give them a named diagnosis so to speak that now you've opened the flood gates to loads of legal hindrance and surveillance. I think those who have a "diagnosis" or medical history in this country in perticular, will find it difficult to achieve the right to buy guns, the right to achieve custody, etc. I think it's a bit of a bear trap in a way and if those want to play that game, their definitely submitting themselves to further headaches with the ever growing bullshit laws of the land.

[Andrew McIntosh]

One of which reason I don't think there is really much in the way of real help to begin with and second of all, once somebody has let someone else diagnose them and give them a named diagnosis so to speak that now you've opened the flood gates to loads of legal hindrance and surveillance.

Yes, I definitely understand that, I've heard that in the US it can be a minefield of legally sanctioned imposition. I'd keep my head down too if I was living in a society like that. Makes me wonder if there are many Americans playing the self-diagnosis-for-attention game Marco is talking about, that happens in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised - we all live in an attention economy online, and attention is the currency. 

Some years ago a mate of mine made a remark that stayed with me, which was to the effect that he thought there was a lot of undiagnosed mental illness about, and it's made me think ever since. Impossible for me to actually know, of course, but it still intrigues me. For example, the old narcissist/sociopath-in-high-places issue, where people who are just mentally driven to dominate others end up in positions of authority and power. Or how psychological issues can manifest in unhealthy relationships, for another example.

[Thermophile]

Some years ago a mate of mine made a remark that stayed with me, which was to the effect that he thought there was a lot of undiagnosed mental illness about, and it's made me think ever since. Impossible for me to actually know, of course, but it still intrigues me.

I also think the same. There are way more people with mental illness and personality disorders that we actually think. They are usually what is called "egosyntonic", they feel good with who they are and will never accept there is some problem with them. Many are very high functioning in aspects of public life but utterly destructive in the private matters.
Also, it's a positive adaptation to lack empathy and be amoral in societies which are fucked up in many ways and most of it's members act like mentally ill.

[tiny_tove]

One of which reason I don't think there is really much in the way of real help to begin with and second of all, once somebody has let someone else diagnose them and give them a named diagnosis so to speak that now you've opened the flood gates to loads of legal hindrance and surveillance.

Yes, I definitely understand that, I've heard that in the US it can be a minefield of legally sanctioned imposition. I'd keep my head down too if I was living in a society like that. Makes me wonder if there are many Americans playing the self-diagnosis-for-attention game Marco is talking about, that happens in Italy. I wouldn't be surprised - we all live in an attention economy online, and attention is the currency. 

Some years ago a mate of mine made a remark that stayed with me, which was to the effect that he thought there was a lot of undiagnosed mental illness about, and it's made me think ever since. Impossible for me to actually know, of course, but it still intrigues me. For example, the old narcissist/sociopath-in-high-places issue, where people who are just mentally driven to dominate others end up in positions of authority and power. Or how psychological issues can manifest in unhealthy relationships, for another example.

One thing I want to underline, I'm happy there is more talking about mental health issues on media/social, but I get very pissed when it's used as a badge of honor by posers. I had a colleague like this, she was a resentful person who was extremely envious of other girls in the office. She had some issues but started to use that as a shield to not do what she didn't want to and (try) to put guilt on the company while we all have been very patient to her being simply a weirdo, not used to work in a professional environment where also manager are friendly but very demanding.

[Andrew McIntosh]

One thing I want to underline, I'm happy there is more talking about mental health issues on media/social, but I get very pissed when it's used as a badge of honor by posers.

Sure, and I don't think anyone is denying that that happens. It's even worse when it's used as a badge of honour by people who actually do have issues. For example, I know a lot of people in the antinatalist scene are basically emotional fuck-ups who use AN as a kind of excuse to be emotional fuck-ups, kind of glorifying their misery without admitting that's what they're doing, and using it to basically act like they're better than everyone else in the world. In that, they're not different from a lot of other fringe identities that are used to cover up personal issues and short comings, like incels and dickheads like that. Whole scenes filled with people who probably should be speaking to therapists and taking medication who are instead declaiming they've got "the Truth" about everything simply because they're fucked up.

But there's also issues of people actually denying certain mental problems all together. For example, trans activists who deny that gender dysphoria even exists. Apparently, real psychological confusion over one's sex isn't real, the delusion of what sex they are is real. I understand that's caused a lot of havoc for some people who have transitioned and then regretted it later.

As far as personal anecdotes go, I used to work with a young chap who very definitely had issues, but also very definitely used those issues to basically do as little work as possible, and in a shoddy way. Used to drive me fucking crazy, I had to carry the cunt every shift. He did end up quitting, fortunately, after I had a little chat with him about how he'd been in the job for a year and hadn't improved a jot, but I don't want to take credit for it. I'm just glad he did leave.

As far as it relates to Industrial/Noise - well, it should be obvious that there's people in these scenes as well who are a little less than "normal". Although I've personally heard of much less psychological drama from individuals on this forum than a lot of other online places where fringe weirdos congregate. Perhaps it's true that venting your frustrations through creative means is still a lot healthier than only through social media. Perhaps doctors, psychiatrists, etc, should start prescribing a healthy dose of Power Electronics to sufferers.

[tiny_tove]

One thing I want to underline, I'm happy there is more talking about mental health issues on media/social, but I get very pissed when it's used as a badge of honor by posers.

Sure, and I don't think anyone is denying that that happens. It's even worse when it's used as a badge of honour by people who actually do have issues.

I had discussion with "antinatalist" fun thing they all tend to complain about other minorities "breeding like rats" or they cry about "injustice to kids". but i'm getting out of scope.

[Bloated Slutbag]

Perhaps doctors, psychiatrists, etc, should start prescribing a healthy dose of Power Electronics to sufferers.

"This one's dedicated to Chuck Traynor"

- Dr Wm Bennet

[Bleak Existence]

Mental illness is everywhere.

[PuddysJacket]

saying youre afflicted with something is a good way to alleviate white guilt. blew my mind how many of these kooks on say, fb, be it a noise oriented group or some other music that lays on the outskirts, or a fan group for something like Twin Peaks - 90% of them end up saying theyve got a minimum of 4 debilitating conditions.

[MALAISE57]

saying youre afflicted with something is a good way to alleviate white guilt

I agree with this. It seems its nowadays a way to get yourself in to a state of "marginalized people". I feel with modern opression olympics type of mindset its a way to get some sort of authority in internet spaces.

[tiny_tove]

totally agree. as said I'm having issues and have been having for the past two years, but I can't wait is over and I don't want to be identified with the condition(s) not due to shame or guilt but simply because it sucks and luckily is temporary and not something I wear as a badge of pride. I'd prefer it was not there and could be 100% functional and not 70% ah ah
I'm very poissed at those people.

[Atrophist]

Perttu Häkkinen: "Is there anything at all that all of your fans have in common?"

Markkula (immediately, without hesitation): "Mental health problems."

Seriously though, as we age, we all develop issues here and there. It's part and parcel of being human. Everything affects everything else, so untreated problems eventually lead to other problems.

There's nothing wrong with needing help or asking for it, but like many others have already said, there's something repellent about people making their (self-)diagnoses their entire personal identity. Can we coin the term "toxic infantilism" to describe that type of behaviour?

As mentioned before here, I indeed have a condition that restricts my mobility and physical abilities pretty severely. While it's no fun, I work with what I have, because what else can you do. Everything has their issues, and this is mine. I also try to remember that it could have been much worse, it was literally a matter of millimetres that areas dealing with things like memory and cognitive function might have been damaged.

Only tangentially relevant to this thread, but I've found that reading memoirs of retired doctors, surgeons, psychiatrists etc. helps to put things in perspective. I'm not talking about just my own issue, but this whole "human condition" palaver. If you're interested, check out such writers as Henry Marsh, Stephen Westaby, Seamus O'Mahony and Theodore Dalrymple.

(Dalrymple writes about many other topics too, but none of it is particularly interesting in comparison to his actual ara of expertise, which is psychiatry)