Discussion on oversaturation in the PE scene and its nuances

[VORACLE]

I'm not sure if I know how to properly express this without sounding like a dickhead, but has anyone else noticed how there seems to be too many PE and PE-adjacent projects nowadays?

I'm mostly referencing the constant onslaught of new releases one sees on various Facebook groups dedicated to PE, Death Industrial, etc.

The thing that bothers me the most is, I don't see a lot of discourse on things. People will make a post "hey, here's my new EP, etc." and it just seems to sit there. Very little in the way of discussion, or even people seeming to react to a release at all.

This is reminiscent to me of the many newer bedroom black metal/limited vinyl scene, where it's so easy to crank shit out now due to ease of recording processes/the internet.

My concern is that not a lot of producers of this kind of music see it as an art form of any sort of depth or expression, but a fast way to exalt one's ego perhaps. Though this could be nothing more than a (slightly) old man yelling at the clouds moment on my end. That said, I'm interested in the thoughts of the artists on this forum and if they have felt the same way at any point in their musical endeavors. 

[Cranial Blast]

I'm not sure if I know how to properly express this without sounding like a dickhead, but has anyone else noticed how there seems to be too many PE and PE-adjacent projects nowadays?

I'm mostly referencing the constant onslaught of new releases one sees on various Facebook groups dedicated to PE, Death Industrial, etc.

The thing that bothers me the most is, I don't see a lot of discourse on things. People will make a post "hey, here's my new EP, etc." and it just seems to sit there. Very little in the way of discussion, or even people seeming to react to a release at all.

This is reminiscent to me of the many newer bedroom black metal/limited vinyl scene, where it's so easy to crank shit out now due to ease of recording processes/the internet.

My concern is that not a lot of producers of this kind of music see it as an art form of any sort of depth or expression, but a fast way to exalt one's ego perhaps. Though this could be nothing more than a (slightly) old man yelling at the clouds moment on my end. That said, I'm interested in the thoughts of the artists on this forum and if they have felt the same way at any point in their musical endeavors. 

Definitely lots of new everything in every kind of music now a days. I think my bigger gripe about it and this could be the old man in me, but I think there is too much bandcamp only releases and click and download releases with no psychical presence. In my opinion that's more of the problem, because it seems to me that those kinds of artists that don't want to put out releases the kind that you can hold in your hand, don't really care enough outside of yesterday and are quickly to the next thing. Soundcloud seems to be a hub for those types of artists. I personally enjoy a spontaneous type of discography full of things by artists like BLJ, Vomir, Noise Nazi, ect. I like that their is presence of something there though in regards to media I can hold on to, rather than some digital files. That's my two cents for what it's worth.

[VORACLE]

Agr

I'm not sure if I know how to properly express this without sounding like a dickhead, but has anyone else noticed how there seems to be too many PE and PE-adjacent projects nowadays?

I'm mostly referencing the constant onslaught of new releases one sees on various Facebook groups dedicated to PE, Death Industrial, etc.

The thing that bothers me the most is, I don't see a lot of discourse on things. People will make a post "hey, here's my new EP, etc." and it just seems to sit there. Very little in the way of discussion, or even people seeming to react to a release at all.

This is reminiscent to me of the many newer bedroom black metal/limited vinyl scene, where it's so easy to crank shit out now due to ease of recording processes/the internet.

My concern is that not a lot of producers of this kind of music see it as an art form of any sort of depth or expression, but a fast way to exalt one's ego perhaps. Though this could be nothing more than a (slightly) old man yelling at the clouds moment on my end. That said, I'm interested in the thoughts of the artists on this forum and if they have felt the same way at any point in their musical endeavors. 

Definitely lots of new everything in every kind of music now a days. I think my bigger gripe about it and this could be the old man in me, but I think there is too much bandcamp only releases and click and download releases with no psychical presence. In my opinion that's more of the problem, because it seems to me that those kinds of artists that don't want to put out releases the kind that you can hold in your hand, don't really care enough outside of yesterday and are quickly to the next thing. Soundcloud seems to be a hub for those types of artists. I personally enjoy a spontaneous type of discography full of things by artists like BLJ, Vomir, Noise Nazi, ect. I like that their is presence of something there though in regards to media I can hold on to, rather than some digital files. That's my two cents for what it's worth.

Agreed, yeah. That said, I'm guilty of this too with my own project. And realizing this has sort of made me part of the problem (though I'm not doing RELENTLESS releases like some of these modern-day projects are... I only have one).

But yeah there's something to the physical aspect of releases. It means the artist had to "slow down" and think methodically before releasing something to the general public, as opposed to just uploading some fucking wav files to Bandcamp or whatever.

[Cranial Blast]

Agr

I'm not sure if I know how to properly express this without sounding like a dickhead, but has anyone else noticed how there seems to be too many PE and PE-adjacent projects nowadays?

I'm mostly referencing the constant onslaught of new releases one sees on various Facebook groups dedicated to PE, Death Industrial, etc.

The thing that bothers me the most is, I don't see a lot of discourse on things. People will make a post "hey, here's my new EP, etc." and it just seems to sit there. Very little in the way of discussion, or even people seeming to react to a release at all.

This is reminiscent to me of the many newer bedroom black metal/limited vinyl scene, where it's so easy to crank shit out now due to ease of recording processes/the internet.

My concern is that not a lot of producers of this kind of music see it as an art form of any sort of depth or expression, but a fast way to exalt one's ego perhaps. Though this could be nothing more than a (slightly) old man yelling at the clouds moment on my end. That said, I'm interested in the thoughts of the artists on this forum and if they have felt the same way at any point in their musical endeavors. 

Definitely lots of new everything in every kind of music now a days. I think my bigger gripe about it and this could be the old man in me, but I think there is too much bandcamp only releases and click and download releases with no psychical presence. In my opinion that's more of the problem, because it seems to me that those kinds of artists that don't want to put out releases the kind that you can hold in your hand, don't really care enough outside of yesterday and are quickly to the next thing. Soundcloud seems to be a hub for those types of artists. I personally enjoy a spontaneous type of discography full of things by artists like BLJ, Vomir, Noise Nazi, ect. I like that their is presence of something there though in regards to media I can hold on to, rather than some digital files. That's my two cents for what it's worth.

Agreed, yeah. That said, I'm guilty of this too with my own project. And realizing this has sort of made me part of the problem (though I'm not doing RELENTLESS releases like some of these modern-day projects are... I only have one).

But yeah there's something to the physical aspect of releases. It means the artist had to "slow down" and think methodically before releasing something to the general public, as opposed to just uploading some fucking wav files to Bandcamp or whatever.

It seems to me like this new younger generation doesn't share the quite the same enthusiasm and now I sound like a dickhead, haha. I just feel like this culture of put your shit out there on bandcamp and who cares about a tape or CD, that kind of bugs me, but who am I to say. It's another old man vs the youngin debate. I was browsing the CDs at a record shop one day and this group of young men, must of been like 18-20 they were looking and talking about CDs and one of them said my mom use to have some of these and I'm come on kid this isn't any antique shop and other kids laughed, but in reality that's what these kids today think! Most of them walk around with phone and headphones. It's a different world today! There are some artists on the Soundcloud that I've quite enjoyed their music and even ask them about releasing a tape and I've gotten back at least two replies saying and not in verbatim, but something along the lines of...why would I want to put my music on a tape? What for?...I'm shellshocked, but that's the world we are living in and with that said this why I'm annoyed by it, because with the way they make and listen to music, they'll get bored and fizzle out! The dedication will not stay, not for most them! We all are guilty of releasing lots of stuff, especially in noise, but on the other hand most of us who release a lot, buy a lot, listen a lot! Find other ways to get involved and "involved" being the key word and difference setting apart from the artists who just want to upload their shit and move on. I mean how many of them would find the enthusiasm to prepare orders and skip lunch tomorrow on their break to get to the post office to mail tapes and CDs! Not saying at all that their aren't any younger people who dedicated as their certainly are, but when it comes to the average person, the world will be getting more click and listen and be lazy.

[TVS]

On the contrary, I've been thinking that there is a lack of good PE releases. Might be because I don't care to follow the bandcamp releases at all. Make more good power electronics!

[DBL]

It seems to me like this new younger generation doesn't share the quite the same enthusiasm and now I sound like a dickhead, haha.

I mean how many of them would find the enthusiasm to prepare orders and skip lunch tomorrow on their break to get to the post office to mail tapes and CDs! Not saying at all that their aren't any younger people who dedicated as their certainly are, but when it comes to the average person, the world will be getting more click and listen and be lazy.

I'm not really disagreeing with you as a whole as my interest in digital-only releases is very limited, but I have to point out that a big part of what seems like lack of enthusiasm in this context might be just about having grown up with different norms of hearing/consuming sounds, and a wholly different view of what is a noise release. If mailing out or ordering physical stuff was never mandatory for you to do so you'd get to hear any noise in the first place, it might just not seem like a part of the noise culture you've grown up with. It might be a bit of a chore to explain someone why something that takes more time and (more) money is an improvement even if it'd make 100% sense to you yourself, heheh.

I guess this might be related to some people having a growing hunger for talking about noise, or hearing/seeing people talk about it. Earlier you had to take part in talking about noise or finding some zine or other platform where others talk about it to get introduced to more noise. Now you have tags and algorithms and don't have to talk or listen to anyone to get more and more noise.

Would make sense that when there's much less public critique, open dialog etc. that the end results would get more dull, or to follow the topic's title, less nuanced. You've got less of that external force to push you further so you might be settling for less without realizing it. Goes for both makers and listeners I guess.

[Cranial Blast]

It seems to me like this new younger generation doesn't share the quite the same enthusiasm and now I sound like a dickhead, haha.

I mean how many of them would find the enthusiasm to prepare orders and skip lunch tomorrow on their break to get to the post office to mail tapes and CDs! Not saying at all that their aren't any younger people who dedicated as their certainly are, but when it comes to the average person, the world will be getting more click and listen and be lazy.

I'm not really disagreeing with you as a whole as my interest in digital-only releases is very limited, but I have to point out that a big part of what seems like lack of enthusiasm in this context might be just about having grown up with different norms of hearing/consuming sounds, and a wholly different view of what is a noise release. If mailing out or ordering physical stuff was never mandatory for you to do so you'd get to hear any noise in the first place, it might just not seem like a part of the noise culture you've grown up with. It might be a bit of a chore to explain someone why something that takes more time and (more) money is an improvement even if it'd make 100% sense to you yourself, heheh.

I guess this might be related to some people having a growing hunger for talking about noise, or hearing/seeing people talk about it. Earlier you had to take part in talking about noise or finding some zine or other platform where others talk about it to get introduced to more noise. Now you have tags and algorithms and don't have to talk or listen to anyone to get more and more noise.

Would make sense that when there's much less public critique, open dialog etc. that the end results would get more dull, or to follow the topic's title, less nuanced. You've got less of that external force to push you further so you might be settling for less without realizing it. Goes for both makers and listeners I guess.

Exactly! You're correct, it's a lot about what you grew up with and what's normal, definitely goes to back to the who's right and who's wrong and there really isn't a wrong or right way. It's just what you know. I guess I'm thinking about digital file music in the context of how people use social media and how it becomes such a nano blip of interest until the next thing comes out. There are certainly some benefits to the digital landscape of today that brings some new ideas in the regards to communication. Podcasts seem to be the place for a lot noise interest communications these days. The good part in all of this though, is that we still have all these forms of media still, which is great! Nothing has really gone away in a sense. The last sentence in your last paragraph makes a lot of sense too, it's like one could be in a loop of habitat and ideas and could find things to becoming dull just the same.

[Krigsverk]

Part of the inital question has been discussed in a previous topic - that a certain formula is getting "stale" vs people wanting that certain formula even though it has been done before.
 
When it comes to PE/heavy electronics I agree with TVS totally, we need more of that. I think the number of active projects in that style is very small compared to f.e. the harsh noise scene. I am doing my best to keep the spirit alive... as the slogan says "Make Power Electronics a threat again", haha.

(Too lazy to dig in old topics right now, but I remember an old thread where these kind of projects were listed) 

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I think there is too much of certain types of "PE". More into gadget focused heavy electronics. More leaning to scenario that is probably the easiest to make:

-synth oscillation
-shouting aggro vocals with heavy effects
-digital recording with all things at max -type of approach to mastering, making it sound like.. whatever game music gone bad, instead of rough noise.

I was reading new Rocker zines, where mr. Trude wrote painfully harsh reviews of items he bought in good faith. As PE fan, buying item and getting something that agitated him to write half page observation of current state of "PE".

It is often discussed that power electronics that is influenced by other power electronics gets very lame. Well, it does, if it is contemporary circle jerk, where everybody does the heavy slab of oscillation done with currently available synths and throws in the vocals with same flanger and delay -treatment... and has no other vision or intent, than to "sound like PE".

It is entirely different thing, to actually look back to history of industrial-noise & power electronics, hear the vast possibilities of "genre" and approach it from perspective that is personally important and interesting. Even going through handful of releases of Con-Dom, Grey Wolves and such OBVIOUS and so well known examples, and one can see that it can be done in so many different ways. Add bunch of old compilations, and you might get realization that how come these all sounds very different and how come now there is so often that same timbre or same production style or same structural "ideas". In one hand, it makes me think how much power electronics is current age "PE maker" listening to? If its metal dude or vegan sXe guy, I can assume there will be the distorted oscillation + aggro vocal routine if PE indeed is seen as rock'n'roll side of noise. Then synth tend to be approached like rock guitars, vocals like yelling HC songs, etc etc..  Contemporary stuff birthing more similar approach and.... for many years the old TESCO slogan has been good recommendation: "back to basics"! Not to copy to basics, but check out how vast the expression was then and then finding your own ways to expand. Its like looking what exactly made those artists powerful and interesting. If only quality one finds is "Korg", it is quite unfortunate.

[Theodore]

RE: Young -not only- people's habits : If that bothers you, Simply, dont spoon-feed them. Make them hunt.

I am not young, neither i was when i found out that noise interests me. I had stopped buying any music since i was 19. Once i understood that noise is for me i faced the reality that shitty MP3 rips is not 'enough' , nor i could find or wait anyone else to share stuff i wanted to listen. So i did my little work. Bought a working deck and started actively looking for my music.

On the topic: I agree with some previous replies. There is oversaturation in good [and decent] new harsh noise, not in good [and decent] new PE. Probably cause to my ears decent PE is not enough, it needs to be good. When decent HN is ... OK, i can listen it and have fun.

[W.K.]

If you are irritated by too much noise it doesn't mean there is too much stuff out there, it means you are too much on the internet.

Can there be too much noise and PE? I think not.

Worst case scenario is that there is too much mediocre stuff, but looking at labels and artists I see a lot of good stuff, great stuff and exciting releases, so I don't agree with your assessment.

Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff.

[VORACLE]

If you are irritated by too much noise it doesn't mean there is too much stuff out there, it means you are too much on the internet.

Can there be too much noise and PE? I think not.

Worst case scenario is that there is too much mediocre stuff, but looking at labels and artists I see a lot of good stuff, great stuff and exciting releases, so I don't agree with your assessment.

Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff.

I guess my next question is, what is your methodology for doing so?

[groesk]

While I do agree physical releases are important to a certain extent, there's also the fact that live preformences are important to music in general, and tenfold in Noise.

Part of the reason Noise got it's reputation in the first place was either the extremely aggressive and off the wall live shows or some dude standing at a table fiddling with hundreds of knobs.
Live preformences is kinda how you get your foot in the door in general. I could go on a whole nother tangent on that but I wanna stay on topic.

These guys who make these Noise recordings in their room, post it on bandcamp, and hope to get a following dont really understand that in the slightest. 90 precent of the time the whole reason an algorithm picks you up because there's enough people behind it. Even Youtubers know this extensively.

Its like how one guy put it on a forum I'm on:
"Years upon years of internet marketing and community building has never amounted to as much as a single night at an open mic for artists, or a performance...If you have chronically online fans who only interact with you through the internet, convincing them to come out to you is one of the most important things you can do to secure a fan for life."

Also props to the posters who remind older people that kids grow up with different customs and won't fully understand something that they grew up with. I do like the older mindset but I do feel that a lot of older people are very harsh to zoomers/whatever kids because they didn't grow up with tape and cd and therefore don't understand it.

[VORACLE]

While I do agree physical releases are important to a certain extent, there's also the fact that live preformences are important to music in general, and tenfold in Noise.

Part of the reason Noise got it's reputation in the first place was either the extremely aggressive and off the wall live shows or some dude standing at a table fiddling with hundreds of knobs.
Live preformences is kinda how you get your foot in the door in general. I could go on a whole nother tangent on that but I wanna stay on topic.

These guys who make these Noise recordings in their room, post it on bandcamp, and hope to get a following dont really understand that in the slightest. 90 precent of the time the whole reason an algorithm picks you up because there's enough people behind it. Even Youtubers know this extensively.

Its like how one guy put it on a forum I'm on:
"Years upon years of internet marketing and community building has never amounted to as much as a single night at an open mic for artists, or a performance...If you have chronically online fans who only interact with you through the internet, convincing them to come out to you is one of the most important things you can do to secure a fan for life."

Also props to the posters who remind older people that kids grow up with different customs and won't fully understand something that they grew up with. I do like the older mindset but I do feel that a lot of older people are very harsh to zoomers/whatever kids because they didn't grow up with tape and cd and therefore don't understand it.

This is terribly accurate. I never "got" noise until I went to a local noise show that merged with an art gallery unveiling. Witnessing the combination of disciplines was really impactful for me that night, and it changed me from your typical "black metal grognard" to a person more interested in experimenting with sound, visuals, and even other things that are used in a more marketing sense now (such as live ritualism in a spiritual/shamanic sense).

[W.K.]

If you are irritated by too much noise it doesn't mean there is too much stuff out there, it means you are too much on the internet.

Can there be too much noise and PE? I think not.

Worst case scenario is that there is too much mediocre stuff, but looking at labels and artists I see a lot of good stuff, great stuff and exciting releases, so I don't agree with your assessment.

Time to move away from faceless Facebook and Instagram and only follow the good stuff.

I guess my next question is, what is your methodology for doing so?

There are so many good releases right now, I don't know why anyone would waste time with mediocre ones.

Maybe that's very simply put, but the older one gets the less one cares about what should or shouldn't be. Focus on the good things, good noise, concerts, live performances, artist and labels that put out quality work and you will see there is more than enough to keep yourself occupied without the need to be riled up over mediocre stuff. Maybe that sounds boring and adult, but that's really what it is, not enough time for all the new stuff anyways.

Lack of discussion, I do agree, but as a lot of people moved away from forums and only use social media now, I don't see this ever returning to how it was with blogs, forums, heated discussions and people falling in and out on little trivial things. I see it happening with other niche genre's too, and it sometimes get itchy about it, but then I see older artist still going strong or even doing more exciting things than ever which gives me all the hope and energy I need.

So I say more noise is always better, the worst is a music genre where everybody complains and nothing gets done. Except for the 'edgy music with anime lolicon girls' type shit, those people can go to hell.