The State of Noise in Belgium

[Nadir]

As my remark on the current lack of noise scene, or noise live action in Belgium on the live reports thread has sparked somewhat of a discussion with local legends and foreign observers alike, maybe it is not misplaced to start a seperate topic. Even if the those involved have nothing more to add, this topic can still serve as a summary of some of the main points and perhaps even as a platform to improve the situation. Plus there are a few things I would like to comment on myself :)

Firstly it was noted by veteran artist and experienced organizer Dries that it is, and always has been difficult to organize noise live shows in Belgium.

It is certainly quiet in Belgium regarding noise shows. There are no more noise shows in Belgium, and it has always been difficult to organize them. Over the years, I tried to do something in Kortrijk, which I managed to do (booking a fest for some years, booking great acts such as The Rita-with Gordon & Charlie M, BLJ, Pedestrian Deposit and so on), but that is over now too. For example, I wanted to organize Dead Door Unit. I asked five months in advance, but the two venues here in town that I worked with had full schedules or weren't interested.

He also noted that Belgium does have a good 'academic' (subsidised) sound art scene, regrettably this scene is quite seperated from the more 'underground', raw, diy noise scene:

both go hand in hand and share the same foundation. Music Concrete, minimal, harsh, drone and so on starts all from the love of sound and in a way, it is silly that it gets divided/separate from each other

Duncan posits that maybe 'hyper genrefication' is to blame here. Maybe the broader bracket of 'experimental music' should be more united, as organizing shows and so on is already difficult enough on its own. In Flanders we say 'samen sterk'.
But I guess the question here is, what divides the underground and the academic scenes in the first place? Dries points to the academic approach's insistence on 'seriousness', even 'beauty' as opposed to the more 'relativized' underground ethos, perhaps a bit more tongue in cheek, serious but 'in its own way'. In the end I think there will always be a seperation between the two, as it isn't just about the sound but also about a difference in attitude and image, not to mention this attitude also influences the sound. Nonetheless there will always be valuable artists or organizers with a foot in both worlds, so to speak.

The Broadcast festival by the well-kown venue Ancienne Belgique was also mentioned, this kind of festival and line up inhibits a special inbetween, between underground, mainstream and academic, what I like to call alternative. I don't think this is super relevant for the discussion, as I don't think the target audience of these festivals is very receptive of harsher kinds of experimental music. I did attend last year because I recieved a free ticket, maybe I would've even gone to the Neubauten show this year, if it wasn't so damn overprized! Literally more than a festival day ticket, just to see Neubauten.

Anyway something I would also like to bring up: I feel like the 'underground' scene in Belgium is mainly dominated by metal. A problem I have with metalheads is that a great deal of them are not very adventurous with their music taste so to speak. Now I know this is a grave generalization, as many people on this forum (including myself!) are also very much into metal and I have also met 'metalheads' with whom I could talk about any kind of genre. However some months ago I saw a live show with a band called Prayer Position from the US as a support, I had never heard of this band but it was an amazing mixture of metal, punk and noise. I was just thinking this kind of crossover could never happen in Belgium as those three 'scenes' are way too seperated from eachother. It seems the situation is different in the US for example. I think if metalheads would show more interest in noise/experimental/industrial music, it would very much help put the latter on the map. Therefore it is great to see Absolute Key on the line up of Pankraker festival!
Anyway I could be completely missing the mark here.

I guess I'd also just like to ask a broad, somewhat pointless question, why is noise not so popular in Belgium, whereas its direct neighbours, chiefly Germany, The UK and The Netherlands have active noise scenes? It is just contingency? The small size of the country? Something imbedded in our culture?

Lastly let me sum up some events and organizers that were mentioned and are currently keeping noise (and sound art) in Belgium afloat:

• Kraak: https://kraak.net/
• Rites of Noise (Antwerp)
• Q-O2: academic sound art, experimental music: https://www.q-o2.be/
• Knotwilg festival: https://knotwilgrecords.be/

There is obviously more, but I can't really come up with everything, not to mention the occasional noise/industrial show in the usual underground venues, so feel free to complete the list further. Also note how these organisations are all based in Flanders or Brussels (which is geographical also situated in Flanders), what goes on in the post-industrial wasteland that is Wallonia? I'm occasionally seeing interesting things happen in the Charleroi venue Rockerill, not noise but more punk, but is there potential here? I would certainly be inspired to make noise if I grew up in a junkyard...

Anyhow, I am not only curious to what other Belgians might add to the discussion, but also outsider perspectives are very welcome! We can definitely learn from eachother.

[NedOik]

It's a good point about the metal scene, there is also a healthy punk-crust-oi whatever you call it scene in Belgium, but as you state the 'crossover' isn't there. The people I also know in this scene are not interested in anything outside of that scope. Re my point about the Broadcast festival - which I think was missed - what I was trying to say was more about 'set and setting'. i.e. I am not going to go to a concert where I can't watch it with a drink because I might 'harm the artworks' even if was Whitehouse with Sotos doing their greatest hits. 

[Duncan]

Thanks for making this thread and treating an outsider's curiosity with patience! Terms like academic and sound art can be used in quite broad ways when describing non-noise/non-underground works and it's sometimes a pejorative. However I do get the sense from this discussion you're probably talking about something fairly specific. Maybe to help figure out more about this separation in scenes (for lack of a better word), it's good to define what is meant by academic in this context. Are we talking about activities connected to a university? Or maybe music made more in line with a 'traditional' avant-garde, electronic and/or musique concrete sensibility?

[impulse manslaughter]

Subrosa and Metaphon Records both documented the early academic electronic composers from Belgium. I'm not an expert but it seems there's a strong tradition of avant-garde and electronic music.

[Nadir]

It's a good point about the metal scene, there is also a healthy punk-crust-oi whatever you call it scene in Belgium, but as you state the 'crossover' isn't there. The people I also know in this scene are not interested in anything outside of that scope. Re my point about the Broadcast festival - which I think was missed - what I was trying to say was more about 'set and setting'. i.e. I am not going to go to a concert where I can't watch it with a drink because I might 'harm the artworks' even if was Whitehouse with Sotos doing their greatest hits. 

So I am not alone in this observation that even the underground scene unfortunately is divided. Right I think your point about the Broadcast festival again ties in with what Dries calls this 'seriousness' in the art world. I personally don't see this as a bad thing necessarily, however I feel like there also always have to be (as a way to keep things in balance) spaces where these rules are more relaxed, where things are taken less 'seriously' and one can enjoy a drink while watching a performance or artwork! haha.

Thanks for making this thread and treating an outsider's curiosity with patience! Terms like academic and sound art can be used in quite broad ways when describing non-noise/non-underground works and it's sometimes a pejorative. However I do get the sense from this discussion you're probably talking about something fairly specific. Maybe to help figure out more about this separation in scenes (for lack of a better word), it's good to define what is meant by academic in this context. Are we talking about activities connected to a university? Or maybe music made more in line with a 'traditional' avant-garde, electronic and/or musique concrete sensibility?

Great question and probably very important that we indeed get a clearer idea of what is meant with terms like academic and sound art. I did not mean to sound condescending towards the artsy scene, I try to visit the Brussels Oscillation festival each year, organized by Q-O2 and I think very representative of the sound art scene. Although there are interesting concerts each year, I must admit I never really feel quite at home at these kind of events.

As a starting point to characterize the difference between the art scene and the underground scene I think very crucial here is the economic factor: one is subsidised and the other is more DIY, volonteer run. To sound very academic myself here, I would like to bring up Marx' distinction between the 'base' and 'superstructure', and their hierarchical relationship, namely that the base determines the superstructure, in other words the economic reality shapes the ideas, the attitudes, the ethos. To apply this to the music scenes, the art scene relies on government money to fund their activities, the key thing here is that they have to 'justify' their claim to this money. Art has to be 'valuable', 'interesting' and maybe even useful to society, all of this is of course political. To put it bluntly, you cannot justify the use of tax payer money to screw around with some pedals.

Another thing, and I think this is where the term 'academic' comes from, is that many artists featured on the line up of for example Oscillation festival have also studied at art school or the conservatory. This education is not neutral and defintely shapes the artists' direction in a certain way and imposes certain frameworks for making music.  In contrast many underground artists simply started doing music as a hobby and enjoy the freedom that comes with this approach (but perhaps are also limited by their amateurship?).

I am not sure if we can say the contemporary sound art scene necessarily builds upon the tradition of the historical avant garde, but unfortunately my knowledge here is actually quite limited. Impulse Manslaughter's references are interesting though, as a rich experimental music tradition contradicts the current lack of interest in noise.

[Atrophist]

But I guess the question here is, what divides the underground and the academic scenes in the first place? Dries points to the academic approach's insistence on 'seriousness', even 'beauty' as opposed to the more 'relativized' underground ethos, perhaps a bit more tongue in cheek, serious but 'in its own way'. In the end I think there will always be a seperation between the two, as it isn't just about the sound but also about a difference in attitude and image, not to mention this attitude also influences the sound. Nonetheless there will always be valuable artists or organizers with a foot in both worlds, so to speak.

I have spent almost a decade here in Helsinki crashing into this wall again and again. Art venues sponsored by the public purse or the third sector are great, but ultimately they are for folks who are educated, privileged, live within the Hki public transportation network's travel zone A, have all the right opinions and none of the wrong ones.

Nothing against this type of folks, ofc, but I don't organize shows only for them. Yet, they are the only ones who will ever say that anone who isn't like us, should not be welcome here. In my experience this is not an obstacle that can be overcome. You either have to figure out a way to live with it, or give this whole scene the finger and go on your way.

The answer is actually very very simple: if you want more noise shows in your area, then organize more noise shows in your area. Try to unlearn the mindset you may have of what a noise show is, or what is "has to" be, or how things have to happen, when, where and it what order.

[Nadir]

Nothing against this type of folks, ofc, but I don't organize shows only for them. Yet, they are the only ones who will ever say that anone who isn't like us, should not be welcome here. In my experience this is not an obstacle that can be overcome. You either have to figure out a way to live with it, or give this whole scene the finger and go on your way.

Regrettably, I have to agree with you here. As I outlined above the the different economic conditions  and educational background keep the artists within the subsidised circuit in check and contrain them to conform to a dominant politcal agenda, this isn't explicit like say propagandistic art, but in the end it is government officials who issue subsidies. Not saying this is inherently bad, but it does limit freedom.

The answer is actually very very simple: if you want more noise shows in your area, then organize more noise shows in your area. Try to unlearn the mindset you may have of what a noise show is, or what is "has to" be, or how things have to happen, when, where and it what order.

Of course, this is obviously where it boils down to. I like the idea of unlearning any preconceived ideas of a what a noise show is 'supposed' to look like.

Anyway I did not mean for this thread to be a space to pessimistically vent about a lack of noise shows as that is obviously pointless, I much more intented this to be a place to discuss Belgian noise and noise culture (in relation to other scenes), as I don't think such a thread exists yet. Hence the neutral title 'the state of noise'.

[Dries]

So I am not alone in this observation that even the underground scene unfortunately is divided. Right I think your point about the Broadcast festival again ties in with what Dries calls this 'seriousness' in the art world. I personally don't see this as a bad thing necessarily, however I feel like there also always have to be (as a way to keep things in balance) spaces where these rules are more relaxed, where things are taken less 'seriously' and one can enjoy a drink while watching a performance or artwork! haha.

Good morning. Taking your project seriously, someone else's project, and being serious about your sounds is justified and necessary to keep yourself sharp. Most people I have had the pleasure of meeting who are active on various fronts of the experimental world have a good dose of self-reflection, and I think that is what I mean by saying that in the more sound art scene they are more "serious." But you see that just as much in the more underground scene, industrial scene, etc. It is something human... So it is not something that only occurs in the sound/avant-garde etc scene in Belgium.

[Dries]

As a starting point to characterize the difference between the art scene and the underground scene I think very crucial here is the economic factor: one is subsidised and the other is more DIY, volonteer run. To sound very academic myself here, I would like to bring up Marx' distinction between the 'base' and 'superstructure', and their hierarchical relationship, namely that the base determines the superstructure, in other words the economic reality shapes the ideas, the attitudes, the ethos. To apply this to the music scenes, the art scene relies on government money to fund their activities, the key thing here is that they have to 'justify' their claim to this money. Art has to be 'valuable', 'interesting' and maybe even useful to society, all of this is of course political. To put it bluntly, you cannot justify the use of tax payer money to screw around with some pedals.

Club Moral explains in the WCN podcast interview that they have/had regular day jobs and worked on their art at home afterwards. Because they were not financially dependent on their art, they could do what they wanted, had no restrictions, and did not have to hold back in their work. Fortunately, there is such a thing as subsidies in Belgium—government support to support various types of art. It is true, however, that you have to explain the expenses, ensure the money is spent wisely, attract a sufficient audience, etc. The trick is to keep following the same path with the added benefit of government support, rather than following a path only to receive the same or more support the following year. So indeed, a 15-minute chaotic performance with junk metal and broken tape sounds might be unjustifiable, but in fact, it should not be a breaking point. When we organized Noisefest, the venue we collaborated with, from which we received funding, was always supportive of what we presented, but over the years you noticed that they had to justify to the board that "only" 75-100 tickets were sold. Their question was: couldn't you put on a crowd-puller or something, etc. Finding and searching for something in between the two is the best solution.The DIY approach creates more freedom but also has its limits.

[Dries]

Subrosa and Metaphon Records both documented the early academic electronic composers from Belgium. I'm not an expert but it seems there's a strong tradition of avant-garde and electronic music.

These two labels you mention do very fine work and are important in the rich history of avant-garde and electronic music in Belgium. And there is indeed a large circuit in these branches of experimental music here in Belgium, which I am very pleased with.

[Dries]

Another thing, and I think this is where the term 'academic' comes from, is that many artists featured on the line up of for example Oscillation festival have also studied at art school or the conservatory. This education is not neutral and defintely shapes the artists' direction in a certain way and imposes certain frameworks for making music.  In contrast many underground artists simply started doing music as a hobby and enjoy the freedom that comes with this approach (but perhaps are also limited by their amateurship?).

A very correct perspective. Both are okay, of course, and if you can reconcile both, you have a perfect balance...

[Dries]

The Last Action (be), Kindvriendelijk(be), Distorting A Woodpecker(us), Dei Xhrist(us) & Woods Mattress(us) on 09/06/26 has changed location and is now taking place at Antwerp Music City.

[Dries]

To think about it some more.. It is history, and government support for labels and organizations (not all of them, of course), that ensure that certain aspects of the experimental scene are largely absent here in Belgium. As a student or young person, you are exposed more to the other end of the spectrum than, for example, PE or Harsh Sounds, etc., so you can't expect them to organize such events unless they receive tips from someone or have a genuine interest in what is still alive. In any case, it is always good to see young people active in any kind of experimental sound. For instance, a few months ago I saw ADIA VANHEERENTALS & KIARA GOVAERT performing as the opening act for BAUDOIN OOSTERLYNCK in Wilrijk. Beautiful sound collages combined with sax sounds, and you were allowed to have a drink in the venue :).

[Dries]

To stay in the mood..Friends of mine are still looking for a gig in Belgium. Jackson aka JHK is going on tour with Scathing and Kiran Arora. They are looking for a show on 23/08 or 24/08.