Collecting noise (/related)

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Couple relatively recent discussions brought me thoughts about collecting:

That is the Main Problem of all Scenes who are Considering "Underground" Mentality. I don't think for Myself, that an "Original" Tape is "the real deal", cause i don't care about an 100% Original Collector Proof. The Tape is no Old Collector Coin with certificate for me. But for many People it seems more Important to have an "Original" for good Money instead of the Music itself. As Example it were no Problem to get Con Dom or Grey Wolves Tapes. They were released and dubbed in several Ways. Now all People hold their Tapes and want Insane Money Prices for the Tapes, cause is CVLT. Where is the Point to spend 30€ for a Grey Wolves Tape, which were dubbed Hundred Times 15 Years ago? I see not the Point in it. Same will all kind of Metal Demos. Old Death Metal Demos were Music to spread around. Not selling it on Ebay as "Real Deal" for Hundred Euros.

Not sure if it's been mentioned before but Vinyl (2000) is mandatory viewing for everyone on this forum. Don't let IMDB's tagline "Alan Zweig investigates the wacky world of record collecting" put you off - this is scathing, depressing documentary film making that reveals as much about your own habits as it does the subjects interviewed. Watch it to get a glimpse of your own future (or maybe even the present?) if you're not careful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNRvB8lyRSM

God I hope I don't turn out like some of the people in this documentary. Thanks for the link though, very interesting film.

Vast majority of releases isn't worth much, and a lot of releases are only worth big bucks if you happen to find one of the very few obsessive fellow collectors in right time. Why release became valuable for owner, isn't all about music. And it should be very easy admit it shouldn't be. There are vast amount of other qualities why one would like to own some piece of creative work. Mentioned "real deal", meaning, that when someone wanted to buy Rolling Stones LP or Morbid Angel LP's, he probably wants the original. Why? Because the re-issues taken from flat remastered CD's, poor enlargements of artwork, non-existent mastering job for vinyl, crappy looking bar-codes and facebook links on the cover... you name it, and the original material has been fucked up. Re-issue can be same song, of course, but it ain't the real deal. It ain't how the material was at its best. Modern day "good sound" is such a unproven hypothesis, it has absolutely no value.
I recall when I bought the GRAVE pic LP box, just because I happen to like old Grave. Then, not only it is pic LP's, but all material is re-mastered into absolute peak level, ruining it totally. Artwork "improved" to modern supermarket standards, in other words: shit. I could not watch the box in my shelves, and really there was no point having it just because of couple ruined demo tracks. I had all the old vinyl anyways.

With noise, there isn't that many re-issues with ruined sound, I think? I recall few complaints from fellow noiseheads who were unhappy about for example Killer Bug tape re-issue 2xCD due compressed sound and supposedly added digital echo. I have no clear recollections of how original tapes sounded compared to CD, although I do have them all. Same was said about Genocide Organ "remember" CD re-issue, yet I had no complaints.

Anyways, there is another topic already for re-issues, so lets move on...   Vinyl documentary indeed is quite brutal. I like the way it depicts the addicts and obsessive collectors, but also it's laughable existential crisis with bourgeois american dream really annoys sometimes. So, you don't have some cunt laying around, you don't have social life like sex & the city, who cares? It still brings good questions related to collecting noise.
I know handful of pretty die hard collectors. I knew people who collect all self released. Be it tape or CDR. Not to be listened, but simply collected. I know people who focus exclusively on LP or tape, and specific side of genre. There are also people who buy whatever. In that document, a lot of people - pretty much everybody - says they are not "collectors", but just music fans. That's the mantra everybody keeps telling themselves, but still to some degree, most have little collector mentality. What sets apart just being music fan, is the importance of format, edition, curation/focus on specific collections, not only just random good records. From some perspective it appears "nerdy" behavior. Yet I believe it goes beyond senseless cataloguing and hoarding.

When collection grows enough, it makes no sense for "listening". Therefore I personally have taken measures of first of all, getting rid of stuff I do not need or want, stuff what does not inspire me. I have started to get rid of CDR's for example. Simply due format. If same material was on CD or LP, I would perhaps keep it.
While my taste on music is always expanding, and knowledge of things increasing, to own "all", like some of those die hard junk hoarders had as goal, is first of all impossible and second of all useless. Therefore I just blatantly admit the habit of collecting, instead of ONLY "being fan of music", my choices in field of experimental/noise:

-Specific individual bands (too many to mention)
-Specific labels, where I have aimed or have the complete collections of their entire output or specific era (Tesco, Pure, Filth & Violence, GROSS, Xn, Praxis Dr. Bearmann, Come Org, etc...)
-Specific countries, where Finland obviously remains something where I hope to hear every piece of noise released here. Followed with countries in their specific moment in history. Lets say old UK PE, 80's/90's german industrial/pe, 80's/90's Japanese noise, contemporary Sweden, Denmark, etc.
-Specific genre / style (I tend to lean towards darker and sleazier, rather than goofy noise. I rather choose ambitious and focused with good sounds, instead of dopy jams and meaningless distortion or such)
-Specific formats (vinyl, cd and tape)

I'm not SO obsessive. I don't generally pay huge money. I don't generally collect things I don't like. I try to keep some sense in amount of stuff, but still, like in document, any time you talk with someone, you realize you're missing something ESSENTIAL. Something what could change your way to hear and see noise. Like knowing sakevi & jojo LP or German Shepards LP may have been 5 times the regular noise cd, but worth much more than that in listening pleasure. But to hear about these records in first place, happened in process of nerdy music talk with fellow collectors, hearing albums played in their house, and buying years later somewhere when opportunity appeared. I'm quite endlessly curious of great music and great sounds. And therefore also well "curated" collections and peoples motivations and experiences with them....

[FreakAnimalFinland]

P.S. anyone willing to get rid of Merzbow   Dadarottenvator LP, let me know! can trade for something neat a'la old null 1st LP, broken flag statement LP or such...

[bitewerksMTB]

"facebook links on the cover..."

I remember getting a Mortuary Drape LP a couple years ago- the one with bone/skull ritual set-up on the cover. Fucking awesome, evil, etc. but on the back is the myspace url that just fucking ruins it.

I don't collect much anymore. The last record I bought that I had been on a mild search for was the OP Rechts LP. I've never put much effort into tracking things down; always figured I'd eventually come across a copy. It's very easy to find what you're looking for with the internet, it's just whether you can afford it. It use to be alot harder to find sellers/traders. I remember some German I traded 3-4 records plus cash to for a damn nice condition copy of "Neuengamme". Or trading Ultra "Youthful Pleasures" for a Whitehouse LP. Or buying a copy of "Statement"LP from Trevor Brown for $25 then trading my spare to someone (Mikko?)... Now, it's hard to trade over holding onto something because it may bring big $ to spend on something else (in my case, it's my mountain bike). Space is another thing; can't keep everything because you run out of room to store it all. Still enjoy trading but sometimes it is just easier to sell/buy. I recently  made a collage for someone in trade for that recent Hospital Prod 2xtape comp...

Not sure any of that has anything to do with the topic as I only scanned it....

I get a kick out of people in the metal scene bitching about 'stamp collecting' in one thread, then in another, there's pics of their collections and the latest t-shirt or patch they've picked up.

[tisbor]

At the moment i don't have money or space to buy as much stuff as i'd like to, but i admit that i find pleasure in the simple fact of owning some specific records and peeking at them on the shelf. I listen to them of course but more often than not i find myself simply looking at them, browsing booklet and nodding head in approval. My preference goes to vinyl and tapes.
I never spent too much money on a single record (i think never above 40 €) but i reckon that some might be worth it.
In the end it's a matter of personal satisfaction and mental wanking on details.
My personal fetishes: The Gerogerigegege/Vis A Vis items and 90s japanese noise - slowly but steadily growing collection.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

on the back is the myspace url

A thing of the past now I think but THAT always had the seal of approved membership of the Musicians International Association of Sheep, Clowns and Fakes stamped all over it. It was the instant "do not associate with" voice on loop in the back of my head every time. Same for anyone who ever worked with Kenji Siratori. Some pales passed are just impossible to return from.

[Zeno Marx]

Jump to the present day though and I'm now trying to refocus my interests, cut down and get rid of much of this accumulated stuff. A lack of money has made me largely download or loan/borrow things I now desire instead of buying them. Physical media is largely considered obsolete and a nuisance, and so I'm replacing readily available stuff I don't really need or have easy access to with just the digital non-tangible counterparts (despite the tempting prices the fallen market is now offering these previously costly things at).

Agreed.  My collection feels more like an albatross than something of pleasure and excitement.  I know most don't find themselves feeling this way, but I continue to get closer to the music itself the more digital my collection becomes.  A rebirth in ways.  I only picked up forty-two new items in 2011, and a good thirty of those came from huge sales (Groundfault, for example).  Might be my most "dry" year since high school, and it felt great.  I'm still obsessed in ways with formats, like only listening lossless 99% of the time.  My listening and interests have experienced a great boom (for the most part)...until some of the wind is sucked from the sail when I look at all the boxes of stuff I'd love to sell but cannot find the energy to screw with listing on eBay, message boards, or on Discogs.  I guess I'm waiting for that moment when I cannot deal with it any longer and I drive it all to someplace like Extreme Noise and tell them, "Take it all.  Please.  Do your best to make me a fair offer."

[RG]

I look at all the boxes of stuff I'd love to sell but cannot find the energy to screw with listing on eBay, message boards, or on Discogs.  I guess I'm waiting for that moment when I cannot deal with it any longer and I drive it all to someplace like Extreme Noise and tell them, "Take it all.  Please.  Do your best to make me a fair offer."

The prospect of making a bunch of money selling your physical collection doesn't hold any motivation for you? You could turn around and use that $$$ for other things, and surely you would bring in more going the eBay/Discogs route than selling it off as a whole collection to a brick & mortar store.

There's definitely a hoarder/OCD aspect to collecting. Perhaps you delay selling off your unwanted items because you feel like you'd be losing a part of your identity?

[Zeno Marx]

The prospect of making a bunch of money selling your physical collection doesn't hold any motivation for you?

The task is that daunting.  I'd love to have the freedom/space/money, but I'm well aware of how much time and energy it would require.  I tried selling small groups at a time.  Hasn't helped.

Perhaps you delay selling off your unwanted items because you feel like you'd be losing a part of your identity?

I've sold off other collections in my time.  In the past, I've found nothing but relief by doing so.  I don't imagine this being different.

[bitewerksMTB]

My collection comes from being involved with my interests for so long, not any ocd or obsessions. I think there's a huge difference in that & someone who feels he has to own every variety of whatever it is he's into. I've always sold off stuff  or traded; I remember selling hardcore punk records to buy Japanese harsh noise records or metal LPs for PE/Noise or PE/Noise to buy a gun or books/records/tapes for bike parts... There's alot of records/tapes I'd have a hard time getting rid of and I never, ever want a collection of wav files. I like flipping through my boxes of records & pulling something out to listen I'd forgotten I had.

[Zeno Marx]

My collection comes from being involved with my interests for so long, not any ocd or obsessions.

I imagine this being a completely foreign concept to many younger folk (Ys/Echoes/Millennials).  The context of that sentence isn't in judgment (save that for another conversation).  It creates such a strange world to folks like us.  "I've known them forever."  "went to grade school together?" "No, I've known them for a two years.  Seems like forever."  It doesn't end with the consumerism.  Every relationship and association is quick-in, quick-out.  For instance, already had a handful of music re-directions by the age of 20.  I have to think that must make someone feel so incredibly disconnected from everything when there is no long-standing foundation.  A history of starts and stops and not one continuum.

[Goat93]

My collection comes from being involved with my interests for so long, not any ocd or obsessions. I think there's a huge difference in that & someone who feels he has to own every variety of whatever it is he's into. I've always sold off stuff  or traded; I remember selling hardcore punk records to buy Japanese harsh noise records or metal LPs for PE/Noise or PE/Noise to buy a gun or books/records/tapes for bike parts... There's alot of records/tapes I'd have a hard time getting rid of and I never, ever want a collection of wav files. I like flipping through my boxes of records & pulling something out to listen I'd forgotten I had.

I would say that this is the REAL practice of collecting, at least in the sense of the underground. To treat everything as a potentially value-increasing cash cow the way which many Discogs and Ebay users do, is absolutely ridiculous. I can understand paying top dollar for something you need/love, and is OOP/hard to find, but just for the sake of archiving something in a collection which mostly is comprised of stuff you will only listen to once or twice is just stupid and pointless. For me, I don't drop a lot of dough on something unless I know it will be an important release for me. I don't buy anything unless I will listen to it at least a handful of times a year, otherwise I get rid of the shit I don't like as much. I can't stand the "I need release Y because of release X" mentality. I feel many people are more into the consumerist aspect and such moreso than the constant search for new, good sounds. Which is sad, but it makes me laugh at those participating, rather than feel jealous of the 1,000+ HNW CDrs they paid over $30 for.

It is really easy to get Tons of new Sounds or New Projects with Old Sounds sells as new. You can come to Hundrets of tapes/MP3 ect ect sells for nearly nothing. But it don't work, it seems. I tried a Test and burned a CD with nealry 70min of Music for some Friends and claimed thats a Copy from a new Sampler with lots of Big Bands. The Music were "Great" till "Good". But the real Artist as CDr or Tape this Guys would never buy, cause "they don't like the Music"...Strange....

[FreakAnimalFinland]

It reminds me of this project published in Finnish 'zine in style of blind commentaries. In this case I saw, mr. Umpio played songs for mr. Sick Seed, with latter not knowing who he hears and therefore comments material with no cultural references attached. This approach allows you simply to listen the material and appreciate what is really is, not on basis who exactly made it.

I don't have so much "icon worship", and not only I tend to voice my opinion without hesitation, but I also can easily admit to myself which releases were good and which not really. Which grand masters of noise turned into worthless shit etc..

Some releases gets to hands of people for reasons of achievements. Lets say, it's much more likely that Hospital productions Viodre CD, described by label boss as "among top-10 noise cd of all times" will be bought and enjoyed by many simply because 1) hospital 2) bold statements. But really, it's ok, but it ain't THAT good.
And simply comparing to something like Edward Sol "Provocative Manner" tape on Quasi Pop, it is really underlined its not that good. Edward crushes the CD with all measures, yet being ltd 45 tape on Russian label, it will never be appreciated in wide scale. First of all, people will not be into trying to get it, because... Edward who?? I have no cultural references. I have no stories. I have no face to attach to music. There's just about nobody to tell this is worth getting. There is just about nobody distributing it. It will probably never be "valuable". It's very small edition, but I don't know if there is any "collector value" in it? I can really put the supposed "top-10" noise CD into context, when I have listened vast amount of material which allows to compare - to have perspective. And where is situation that I don't personally need material to be cool to get it. It simple reveals itself by standing out from past 20 tapes that should have been great, but were merely good, if not even bad.

Collecting obviously has the consumerist aspect. You start to cumulate more than you can honestly ever listen to. Lets say if you have 10000 items in collection. How many more you need? Would you ever be able to give decent playtime for majority? But for me, it is also like library. I don't need to listen everything all the time, but when I want, it's there. Within noise, I don't think I collect anything what I wouldn't listen. I hardly ever keep stuff what I think sucked, and I won't listen ever again.

Hardly any discographies I want to complete with releases I don't care for. I don't need for example complete Alchemy Records, since I most of all appreciate their noise. From rest, Angel In heavy syrup, Noodles, and couple others are enough. Rest I prefer to not have. From many old major names, I knew which album is THE END of my collection. This also fits the rest of music. Within music, there are few overall general lines I follow, but my collection of music is much smaller than "noise & related".

Most of stuff nothing utterly high priced, but it's just matter of long periods of time being in right place, right time, right connections.  There are only handful records I actually paid top dollar, but kind of regret, since I would have gotten them for fraction of the price next year. But lessons learned. I have made some decisions about amount of space I have for "collection". When this space is not enough, something needs to go. Material isn't baggage to me, and I don't feel there's some "better life" waiting if I would just sell records away. It's exactly the kind of attitude present in that document. Miserable people thinking everything would be great if they get rid of this "bad habit". To me, it's not really even material. It's not like I cumulate garbage. It's carriers of creative human spirit in then. It is not stamp or coin in folder, trying to build some numeric series to keep mind occupied, but documents of creative force, like lighthouses blinking in some direction, luring me to investigate there. It's not just noise, but it suddenly takes routes to every direction of art, culture, sex, death, communication,..... blah...   whatever ;)
If it fails, then it's nothing but physical record what can go. I don't need random plastic in my possession.

[Zeno Marx]

I don't think it is disputable that collecting does become habitual and has the potential to become a "bad" habit for some.  It's like drinking or drugs or anything else that is a powerful motivator.  It isn't inherently "bad", but it can become a burden and then bad.  For those who recognize the habitualness and then acknowledge the vices that can entail, to rid themselves of that negative consequence can be part of a process to a better state of mind.  In that way, it does indeed take on an aspect of being baggage.  I hear this from avid collectors who love buying records and who have no intention of stopping.  They feel no guilt or wrongness in collecting records, yet they do recognize it as habitual and sometimes a responsibility that they need to keep under control.  Each perspective is a different representation of healthiness; or an attempt to become, or stay, healthy in their pursuits.

It's interesting to think about how a collection does eventually become an archive or library that is more about access and documentation than utility in the more obvious, traditional definition.  It's still utilitarian, but it morphs into a more complex idea of it.  At what point does that happen?  At the point of epiphany?  That arbitrary moment when a collector rarely goes back and listens to the older part of the collection?  When the practical becomes more theoretical?  I'm led to believe it is inevitable in the process of the endeavor, but I'm also limited to my own experience in the process of collecting various things.  I'm curious to hear what other people think about this part of their development.  Has it changed for them?  If so, when?  If not, do they foresee it changing?  etc.

I have literally thousands of live recordings.  I've listened to 90% of them at least once, but listening was never the sole intent.  I want access to them for the many historical perspectives they can enlighten.  It's raw information and energy that offers great potential; potential in perspectives I might not even recognize yet.  Study.  Research.  Associations.  I've always been drawn to the idea of library and archives.  For myself, it is one of my biggest conflicts, that of being innately minimalist and intuitively collectorist (or maybe the other way around).

[acsenger]

And simply comparing to something like Edward Sol "Provocative Manner" tape on Quasi Pop, it is really underlined its not that good. Edward crushes the CD with all measures, yet being ltd 45 tape on Russian label, it will never be appreciated in wide scale. First of all, people will not be into trying to get it, because... Edward who?? I have no cultural references. I have no stories. I have no face to attach to music. There's just about nobody to tell this is worth getting. There is just about nobody distributing it. It will probably never be "valuable". It's very small edition, but I don't know if there is any "collector value" in it?

That's a very good point, very true and sad. I often wonder about how much good stuff I'll never know (and neither will 99% of people into this music) because of what is outlined above. On one hand, there are "big" and well known names who in many cases are rightly expected to deliver quality with their new releases, so it's justified people buy their stuff (although there has to be healthy criticism where it's due), but on the other hand there are new and upcoming names who will probably never get a quality release and distribution that a well known name gets. There are labels that put out quality releases but who only release big names, and I don't think this is healthy.

I guess if you're a distributor or have friends who are, then you're more likely to hear low-profile stuff, but otherwise it's hard to get to know such names, especially if your budget is limited and you don't like risking spending on something you might not like at all.

It's interesting to think about how a collection does eventually become an archive or library that is more about access and documentation than utility in the more obvious, traditional definition.  It's still utilitarian, but it morphs into a more complex idea of it.  At what point does that happen?  At the point of epiphany?  That arbitrary moment when a collector rarely goes back and listens to the older part of the collection?  When the practical becomes more theoretical?

I have a friend who's a serious collector: around 3000 CDs and maybe 1000 vinyls and it's fair to say he's an obsessed collector. He buys way more than he can listen to. He has a weekly 2-hour radio program where he presents new music and this is actually his excuse for collecting: that he doesn't do it only for himself. I guess this is a valid point, but I think at the end of the day if he were to calculate how much of his collection he's presented in the radio, the percentage wouldn't be as high as to justify such obsessive collecting (he actually has financial troubles due to his obsession). However, when I met him 12 years ago and we became friends, I was looking for new kinds of music and his collection served as a library and was immensely helpful. Over the years a small group of friends emerged (around 5 people) who all have been using his collection as a library (in the meantime, I've moved to a different country so I'm no longer part of this group). In this sense, his collection does fulfil a purpose beyond that of personal obsession.
I myself have a collection of "only" several hundred CDs, but it's a growing one and I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. However, already this size is too large to be able to regularly listen to everything (especially since my girlfriend doesn't like 98% of my collection) and this makes me think from time to time whether it's worth going on? In addition, I don't have friends in my new(ish) country who like the same kind of music, so my collection doesn't serve a "library" purpose -- something that I'm quite sad about.

[Vehemency]

I'm in a somewhat similar position as the poster above in that I'm pretty much solitarily expanding and discovering my own "library" (around 500 titles I'd guess, I actually just started cataloging them a few days ago), meaning that the people close to me aren't really into the records I possess, including girlfriend. So there's no social perspective in the use of the library really. But I don't mind that at all, it's a vault of my own and it brings pleasure to explore it and, like said earlier in this thread, know that if I want to hear something, it is there ready whenever I want.