CHANGE OF CLIMATE IN NOISE / SOCIAL FACTOR / GENERATION ME

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I think it is better when artists is separated from art in case when he/she is hardly interesting. Only thinking we should be interested in them simply because they are "artists".
We can see this in just about every field of "youthful creation".

for example:

Photographers, (perhaps most predominantly female?) photographing themselves. As if countless images of you and possibly your friends hanging out in front of camera is great expression of art?

Alternative comics, where some protagonists did amazing autobiographical works, but changed the current for all mr. & miss nobodies make comics about their non-existing lives. We should be interested in them, because they feel they are real and special people, not some "imaginary" stories.  And when gates were opened, that you didn't need to have story, you didn't need to have idea, just tell what you've been doing.
I guess it wasn't enough, since you still need to do a bit more than just publish a sketchbook of half finished no-good doodles. And they should be interesting because... you did it?

Then we can extend these routes to noise in form of questions: Do we need "generation me" fixations about themselves and their mundane lives to pollute our consciousness? Do we need to search through "sketchbooks of noise", hoping something relevant and meaningful, beyond couple random good ideas could be found?
Reply appears to be that someone needs them. I suppose there is an audience for confessional diary where someone opens his heart about misfortunes of his life, perhaps in form of incoherent audio diary, but this is not the "noise" or "pe" I personally can connect to. I look for bigger things than single little man.

[Zeno Marx]

I'm probably wrong but I was under the assumption that "Generation Me" was more of a positive thing (although there are negative aspects like narcissism and less human social interaction), not necessarily pertaining to big heads and big egos. Rather it is a generation being "more assertive, confident and entitled", who have big dreams that they try to attain. But most importantly it means that the generation is more self-reliant than ever as opposed to "Generation We". But like I said I could be wrong, I never looked into the idea deeply enough to have a firm opinion about it.

Actually, they're less independent.   For example, employers notice that once they're finished with a task, they have a problem understanding what the next step is, so they stop until they're told exactly what to do next.  It isn't out of laziness.  They're known to be good workers, but they also need to have their hand held at every step.  It places undue stress on the system because they're so dependent upon oversight.  It's one of the consequences of being praised for everything they do.  Everyone gets a trophy.  Everyone gets a ribbon.  Even if they don't win or set themselves apart or excel at anything.  The result is that they don't have to excel at anything to be praised.  It's has a homogenizing effect.  It takes conformity to a new level.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

While I look from european perspective, I don't see the whole negro "keep it real" thing going on, what ALWAYS, without exception, comes as conclusion on american dominated boards (say Noisefanatics).

I realise it's simply provocation on your side, but for me your off-hand "negro" comments don't really fit into the "keeping it real" problem in popular culture. I can't speak for black culture myself (and I certainly don't think you can either) but I wouldn't limit identity crisis and fitting in with a crowd/scene/stereotype to a specific race, gender or location.

But in context of the sentence - it is always, and without exception, a phenomena found in american noise board(s) where PE and Hip Hop (which I consider predominantly negro culture) are mentioned with similarities.
While someone expects the "street cred" similar to hip hop, fails to see that as far as I can see, industrial/post-industrial of any kind had the same motivation or characteristics?
We can't deny the influence of location or culture. It would be simply foolish.

[Cementimental]

Seems to me that too many (not saying all or most!) modern PE fans/artists have the opposite approach to 'keeping it real' - ie they talk the talk about how they are just using extreme imagery and ideas as a comment on society, a provocation, an apolitical exploration of the aesthetics or whatever other justification, but then when they start talking about their actual politics and opinions it turns out they really ARE racist/bigoted in a mundane and, in the context of their chosen genre of PE, disappointingly un-self-aware unexamined way.

[HongKongGoolagong]

While someone expects the "street cred" similar to hip hop, fails to see that as far as I can see, industrial/post-industrial of any kind had the same motivation or characteristics?

Certainly the shock tactics in the pre-bling era of the early 90s had great similarities to classic PE in my eyes. Geto Boys 'Mind of a Lunatic' is mentioned in comparison to Whitehouse a couple of times in 'Still Going Strong' (Impulse Publications, 1993)  - bearing in mind that the 80s hip-hop pioneers such as Afrika Bambaataa were entirely aware of people like TG and influenced by them, I don't think it's too unlikely that some self-consciously 'extreme' rappers will have been made aware of the likes of Come Org. And I know that William Bennett was influenced back in turn from the early 90s onwards.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Seems to me that too many (not saying all or most!) modern PE fans/artists have the opposite approach to 'keeping it real' - ie they talk the talk about how they are just using extreme imagery and ideas as a comment on society, a provocation, an apolitical exploration of the aesthetics or whatever other justification, but then when they start talking about their actual politics and opinions it turns out they really ARE racist/bigoted in a mundane and, in the context of their chosen genre of PE, disappointingly un-self-aware unexamined way.

If there is too many, do you have any examples?
I certainly am not apolitical nor my "bigotry" should be surprise to anyone? This is most certainly covered in my own work, but again, it's not about me as person, but about those ideas.

While someone expects the "street cred" similar to hip hop, fails to see that as far as I can see, industrial/post-industrial of any kind had the same motivation or characteristics?

Certainly the shock tactics in the pre-bling era of the early 90s had great similarities to classic PE in my eyes. Geto Boys 'Mind of a Lunatic' is mentioned in comparison to Whitehouse a couple of times in 'Still Going Strong' (Impulse Publications, 1993)  - bearing in mind that the 80s hip-hop pioneers such as Afrika Bambaataa were entirely aware of people like TG and influenced by them, I don't think it's too unlikely that some self-consciously 'extreme' rappers will have been made aware of the likes of Come Org.

Similarity as shock tactics, to me is hardly relevant. So is the "someone talks over electronic sound". We could compare to many things. Many music styles, poetry, movies, performance arts etc. The interest in "extremes" and provocation is so big part of popular culture, not to mention culture overall - it's all sex, death, violence, men enslaving women etc since dawn on mankind.

My point has been and still remains: the introduction of mundane (read: common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative) person as key element of noise. When we look into hip hop, be it true or false representation - am I wrong or it's most of all "me and boys" type of approach. Appearing public, in photos, in promotion as themselves, promoting themselves as persons, doing lyrics in style of

"The police wanna see me in an early grave
But I ain't trippin on em muthafuckin pearly gates
Ways to get a nigga 'fore he get me
Always keep my 'stola with me
Never beg for my life if they muthafuckin hit me"

The common, ordinary, banal, unimaginative life of some guy, doesn't make me interested for the guy himself. I couldn't care less about him as person. His face, his name, his posse, etc.

While perhaps slightly different:

"Right To Kill :
That's yours
That body's yours
Beat it
Fuck it
Dominate, mutilate, strangulate
Rape and bugger it
Kill it
Eat it
It's your right to kill
It's your nature
The ultimate pleasure
Kill! Kill! Kill!
It's your fucking right to kill
It's your fucking nature
Kill! Kill! Kill!
It's my right to kill!"

Especially at the time, what did WB present about himself? Does the song talk about WB as person? He does say "it's my right to kill", yet it comes out as ideology (perhaps too strong word, though) presented from general perspective, rather than story about his random misbehavior in contemporary society? He is not ego boosting stories of him and his posse making mess.

To me it appears significant difference, where we really do not know, nor do we care much, about what guy, how he looks like, what he does in his daily life. We would care if his recording is good and if it provides inspiring content. Having noise recording with the guy talking about his uninteresting life can be utmost let down.

NIT, Mentors, GG Allin or Geto Boys could be the Jerry Springer show. Perhaps sometimes some unadulterated grotesque fun. But I doubt majority goes to same category?

I think the question about media representation is fairly interesting, yet that's beyond artists control (in some ways). But it's not beyond artists control if he decides to sing about banal himself, with his face in the cover. You know, compilation of vegetarian noise. "Oh, Tim is vegan! Cool". Huh!? I consider the great possibility that my pathological hatred for such things as reality tv or people who offer nothing but try to get their face/name in public, is reason why I don't "get" why that could be interesting. I would put animal rights (or animal bizarre! hah) compilation to my cd player anytime over projects compiled over idea of gathering together social group based on peoples diet.  As I would rather listen to material what evokes the feeling of historical transgressive moment, than Average Joe's sob story of lost girlfriend.  The basic urge may be caused by exactly same things - but it manifests in entirely different light - depending what person is after. Seeking fame and recognition for himself or his ideas.

[HongKongGoolagong]

My point has been and still remains: the introduction of mundane (read: common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative) person as key element of noise. When we look into hip hop, be it true or false representation - am I wrong or it's most of all "me and boys" type of approach. Appearing public, in photos, in promotion as themselves, promoting themselves as persons, doing lyrics in style of

"The police wanna see me in an early grave
But I ain't trippin on em muthafuckin pearly gates
Ways to get a nigga 'fore he get me
Always keep my 'stola with me
Never beg for my life if they muthafuckin hit me"

The common, ordinary, banal, unimaginative life of some guy, doesn't make me interested for the guy himself. I couldn't care less about him as person. His face, his name, his posse, etc.

A similar thing has happened in hip-hop to what you describe as the introduction of the mundane or 'authentic' in noise. So many of the early gangsta rappers were actually from well-educated middle-class backgrounds, they might have had distant cousins in the projects but they were the sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers. The lyrics back then were as crazed and over the top as 'Right To Kill':


"Lookin through her window, now my body is warm
She's naked, and I'm a peepin tom
Her body's beautiful, so I'm thinkin rape
Shouldn't have had her curtains open, so that's her fate
Leavin out her house, grabbed the bitch by her mouth
Drug her back in, slammed her down on the couch
Whipped out my knife, said, "if you scream, I'm cuttin"
Opened her legs and commenced the fuckin
She begged me not to kill her, I gave her a rose
Then slit her throat, and watched her shake till her eyes closed
Had sex with the corpse before I left her
And drew my name on the wall like helter skelter
Run for shelter never crossed my mind
I had a gauge, a grenade, and even a nine
Dial 911 for the bitch
But the cops ain't shit when they're fuckin with a lunatic"

No-one can possibly take that as a serious account of Bushwick Bill's everyday life: it's provocation. And not common, banal, ordinary or unimaginative in any way. Not 'ego boosting stories of him and his posse' because it is clearly fiction, just like many of Whitehouse, Sutcliffe Jugend and Con-Dom's texts.

[bitewerksMTB]

Con-Dom is a family man!

What song does he use that line in?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Family Man (Road to total freedom 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoS-c60MvIU

As great example related to what I wrote above - Road To Total Freedom original version. Check All In Good Faith. It is written from perspective of "I", yet I have hard time thinking it would be person behind Con-Dom talking about his own urges and own actions, but focusing on scenario of control/domination within strict religious culture.
It immediately provokes visions of lets say in Finland - vanhoillislestadiolaiset (Laestadian Lutheran Church). Could be target of observation, although track most likely doesn't address that directly. Just been a lot in news during last years due all sorts of control/domination/abuse/etc. During last couple of weeks listened multiple interviews from radio from now grown up victims.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

A similar thing has happened in hip-hop to what you describe as the introduction of the mundane or 'authentic' in noise. So many of the early gangsta rappers were actually from well-educated middle-class backgrounds, they might have had distant cousins in the projects but they were the sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers. The lyrics back then were as crazed and over the top as 'Right To Kill':

No-one can possibly take that as a serious account of Bushwick Bill's everyday life: it's provocation. And not common, banal, ordinary or unimaginative in any way. Not 'ego boosting stories of him and his posse' because it is clearly fiction, just like many of Whitehouse, Sutcliffe Jugend and Con-Dom's texts.

I agree, but as said, this approach is not the most typical characteristic of genre, is it? We know it from very different type. I know Geto Boys well, and I guess it might not be entirely surprising that I do have pile of most vile gansta rap (including GB) - the old classics from 80's early 90's and few subcultural extremes of later days a'la Necro - which is like death metal/gore grind version of hip hop. You know, I'm just human being, tempted by the devils of world! :D

Still - I consider the difference of "De Sade" vs. "Ghetto Booty Slappers". Just like mentioned before. I consider difference of The Sun vs. ____ ..well insert basically anything of your choice but trash.

I know this introduction of "mundane" / "banal" person infiltrates every "creative" aspect of human culture and no surprise hip hop (and noise!) as well. While west goes towards "generation me" direction, I personally hope to reject concepts such as individuality (as ideology) and equality. Repulsion towards the above mentioned phenomena is result of that.

[Goat93]

Provocation IS Entertainment and the Music can be easily changed with the same Lyrics. P:E is throught that also just Entertainment for the Listeners. On the other Side, everything can be Provocating. Even a Picture with some Flowers can be Provocate, if the Contex fits. If Raping Images are Common, nobody would be provocated from it.

The Intention is the Key. For which Reason is the Provocation? A Song like "Living like a Prayer" from Madonna were Procovating in this Times and in the USA, in other Countries nobody pays Attention of the Provocation or the Intention itself after all. Nobody cares about it, its just a Pop Song. Or the Pop Song "I Don't Like Mondays". I heard it Yesterday in the Radio as normal pop Song. The Message is not easy cheesy Pop Music, but its played at this. Other Example is German Right Winged Band Landser. This Band is absolute Popular...Worldwide and in nearly every Music Scene. The People who should be Provocated by the Songs are the Listeners now. Paradox Contex or just use as Entertainment?

And HipHop/Rap have a really wide Variation, the Commercial Chart Music doesn't represent a Scene after all (or is Industrial now Music like Combichrist)

[Cementimental]

Mikko my previous post wasn't directed at you but rather the kind of mostly US based 'reality'-seeking PE people you're complaining about too. But for me it seems like they come from a more black metal "evil" mindset/aesthetic; it seems a bit weird to say that hiphop "keepin it real" culture influences this kind of attitude since the "real" that they approve of, and are disappointed if they learn isn't "sincere", is usually racism or neo-naziism etc...

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Mikko my previous post wasn't directed at you but rather the kind of mostly US based 'reality'-seeking PE people you're complaining about too. But for me it seems like they come from a more black metal "evil" mindset/aesthetic; it seems a bit weird to say that hiphop "keepin it real" culture influences this kind of attitude since the "real" that they approve of, and are disappointed if they learn isn't "sincere", is usually racism or neo-naziism etc...

I didn't think it was directed to me, but I simply used it as example as reference. Could have used many others who I know better. But examples would be nice. Shouldn't be too touchy people...? There is no (neo-)nazism in noise beyond very very very few isolated cases, who most often approach it with fetishistic form.

Hip Hop keeps coming up since it's what comes up in american forums quite often. One could also say culture in general - where everything is affected by this. I think it comes out differently in hip hop - perhaps in most exaggerated form.

I understand Mikko's point that the exploration of a more complex and invasive issue of world view and societal re-alignment is vastly more interesting than day to day self glorification. 

That said, when focus on the self can be presented as either a path towards investigating more universal issues, or used in the formulation of new myths, then I'm interested in that.  Self focus in the absolute as a circuit towards something more than the day to day is something fascinating, but you can easily tell when it's done lazily, or due to a lack of ideas, and a lot of the noise/pe/whatever I see reeks of inauthenticity oddly enough by its own claim of authenticity.

My vague point being that personal / self glorification, is not always a negative, though if the person is boring, and most are, there's not going to be anything there.

And yes, surrounding culture and land have an intense programming power that people can deny all they want, it will always be there.

Within underground, there can be the baggage of unhealthy ego. People do acknowledge they are worth nothing in bigger perspective. This existential trouble might give them ideas to simply decide otherwise. Some things are not simply matters of decision, but requires action or process. But they might refuse to choose latter since it might require something. Which automatically sets them apart from potentially interesting cases.

It would be foolish to deny race, nation and location, when big part of the identity may be covered by (acceptance or rejection of) something like american dream (-> a set of ideals in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and possibility to an upward social mobility) or so called Russian Mentality. It appears to be utterly stressful for modern people that they can't be everything and that they are something and it isn't all matter of simply saying so. For example, I can never fully understand what would be so neat to be in gang that protects some shitty block in shitty town, barely surviving. If block gets big enough and "gang" big enough, I can suddenly see the point very easily. Which for someone appears utterly bizarre vision.

One could look for example popularity of for example Church Of Satan. Why it appealed so much more to America (metal scene, industrial scene,..) while in many parts of europe this hedonistic and (mundane) individual worshipping approach was accepted by some, but quite often matter of laugh, ridicule and rejection?

When someone gives idea worship of mundane ego being possible, some men appear to think as if it mean that you should take any ego, any person and worship that and revolve around little piece of dogshit. While some others would realize it would be matter of things only found by destruction of mundane/banal element and aim further.

This same scenario happens all around culture, yet maybe I am living in illusion that noise could be different.  SINCE, there is pretty much absolutely nothing you can gain from it in traditional form (wealth, ladies, fame, groupies, mass audience..) to me it would indicate it could be only done for little more pure reasons. Focus on idea, sound and art - and eventually people may get interested IF there is substance. And even then the interest may be so small, that only with pure personal interests its worth it.

That even in very standard form, there is something metaphysical and esoteric, something ideological and spiritual. Don't look the words in horror like they'd be in any way complex or necessity of pretension & posturing. I think valid, whether it's Korpses Katatonik or... lets choose CCCC and Smell & Quim!

[Cementimental]

I'm surprised there isn't even more ego in noise/pe... eg it's kind of weird that a scene composed mainly (i wonder what percentage) of solo performing/recording artists still overwhelmingly uses 'band names' and it's so rare for the person to just use their actual name.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I'm surprised there isn't even more ego in noise/pe... .

So we reached a critical point in that discussion. Question is: why do PE/noise/industrial artists use such topics and noise as music tool? Underground fashion / trends? Or maybe something what is more, more true and unique? I am affraid (reading even if posts of some artists here) this is (unfortunately) kind of underground fashion. Somebody tells that everywhere are "good" and "bad", "true" and "false" artists.... Anyway, this is a good reason to know other artists via only their art, not their real life and claimed views.