The rise and/or fall of this music?

[Brad]

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[RyanWreck]

I don't think Noise or Power Electronics will ever explode into the mainstream consciousness like other genres do. And I believe there is a smaller chance of it turning into a mass-marketed revenue-making commodity. But you are true in respect to the "waves" of fans that seem to pop-up and then go away, but this is true to every genre. Why? I don't know. There have been very obvious moments of growth which will always sway more people in no matter what genre you are talking about. In terms of sound it always seemed to me like the early-mid 90's marked points of refinement to the already powerful sounds of Noise and P.E.. You can hear the development which happened in that time if you just listen to the music of Taint, Deathpile, "Our Earth's Blood, Part 1", etc in comparison to say, Beyond Unknown Pleasure or Knees and Bones. These minor alterations may have struck a chord with some people that at one time may have not listened to the material thus the genre grew a little and with that growth came more fans. And you can't forget about those people who just like something because others don't just because it makes them "cool". Those people usually kill genres when they become too involved but most of the serious artists and labels, especially within Power Electronics, are far too intolerant to this type of movement to let this type of outsider bullshit happen.

But that is just my opinion. I've only been into Noise/PE for a few years myself, since around the time I graduated which was in 2001 so I can't speak with authority on much else. Lucky for us this forum is filled with people who have been around for awhile. I would love to hear what the heavyweights have to say.

[Brad]

I don't think Noise or Power Electronics will ever explode into the mainstream consciousness like other genres do. And I believe there is a smaller chance of it turning into a mass-marketed revenue-making commodity.

Yeah, that's basically why I asked.  Noise/PE could be getting REALLY BIG right now in the context of its own history, yet still be completely unknown relative to most other kinds of music. 

But you are true in respect to the "waves" of fans that seem to pop-up and then go away, but this is true to every genre. Why? I don't know. There have been very obvious moments of growth which will always sway more people in no matter what genre you are talking about. In terms of sound it always seemed to me like the early-mid 90's marked points of refinement to the already powerful sounds of Noise and P.E.. You can hear the development which happened in that time if you just listen to the music of Taint, Deathpile, "Our Earth's Blood, Part 1", etc in comparison to say, Beyond Unknown Pleasure or Knees and Bones. These minor alterations may have struck a chord with some people that at one time may have not listened to the material thus the genre grew a little and with that growth came more fans.

Wasn't the early-mid '90s wave also the first time a lot of metalheads were introduced/converted to Noise/PE?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

The moment of new and exciting, is something what gets people's attention. When something is done enough, it simply isn't such a interesting thing. Especially if we talk of subcultures. Many movements in art or music has reacted to its surroundings and social climate and when situation is gone, it simply isn't the same anymore.

90's was perhaps moment when many people in metal scene heard about "noise". Perhaps most of all thanks to labels like Relapse and Cold Meat which intentionally crossed over. But I don't know how big is that, when in general we're talking about days when the general availability of information plays perhaps biggest role?

When talking about rise or fall of "this music", as mentioned, its very vague. S.I. covers plenty and hopefully will cover even more. Many different sides and approaches may have had their peaks and don't exist in original form anymore but most co-exists with certain amount of overlap, but in the end, very different history and present time concerning audience, interest in general, amount of live shows, amount of relevant releases, and so on.

When "moments" are so small, it's hard to see what exactly is rise and what is fall. You go to live show and there are 20 people. Next time 100. Then 30. Then 60. What is rise and fall? When successful and memorable release sells just about the same as item nobody seems to talk about. When changes appear even based on mood of 1 person. One guy decides to stop organising shows, and suddenly there is drastic fall of gigs. Or one distributor stops and suddenly there seems to be huge void. One label stops doing certain type of releases and it basically ends the type of releases. When label does 1 release per year, it seems like they stopped. When they do 15, people cry about flood. All these are still very tiny moments and hard to say what happens next.

[post-morten]

I think industrial as a cultural movement peaked - at least in terms of press coverage and record sales - at its very genesis, by the advent of Throbbing Gristle and Industrial Records. Besides the novelty factor, there were established networks of dedicated "agents" worldwide through tape-trading and mail art scenes, ready to spread the gospel. Obviously industrial/noise/p.e. has, by its very nature, always been too extreme both in terms of sounds and aesthetics to ever obtain any mainstream momentum. Which I'm sure artists and fans alike are perfectly happy with.

Yet, within the confines of the miniscule subcultural realm these styles inhabit, it seems that popularity ebbs and rises in periodic cycles. My impression is that the highs coincide with times when borders become blurred, when influences seep through between genres, when a sort of cross-fertilization takes place. As when bm folks like Mortiis, Burzum and Ulver started dabbling with dark/black ambient. Like when club acts such as Autechre acknowledge TG and Coil, and collaborate with The Hafler Trio and :zoviet*france: (and not forgetting Portishead's fantastic Third album, with its rich tapestry of abrasive, quirky sounds). Today groups like SunnO))) and Wolf Eyes are catalysts, that possess profiles high enough to draw new listeners - the new blood absolutely required to keep labels floating. Because it seems there's always a fraction of the new kids on the block that are dedicated/perverted enough to seek out and explore the most far out exponents of the trade.

So the future probably looks... if not bright, so at least not any bleaker than before. That's my take on things... don't know if it made any sense though.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

What I meant with the wideness of "this music", is that it's not all industrial, and then it's harder to see the peak.

There is connection to jazz, to classical, to visual art, to performance art, metal, punk,.. to.. well, a lot. It's hard to say about Finland, when things were popular. Certainly people used to talk more of "industrial" when Laibach, Test Dept and such were active and also performed in Finland. Certainly people talked more of Jap noise when it was all fresh and new. But much later than that, there was pretty steady row of japanese noise bands in Finland. This was not in peak of "fashion", but later on: Pain Jerk appearing in TV news, Merzbow doing soundtrack to Finnish movie, Government Alpha, K.Haino, KK.Null, Montage, and so on playing one or more shows in Finland. And now lately (=1-2 years),.. there is no talk, newspaper articles or live shows? But is there a setback? Some regression? I don't think so. Just regular waving which doesn't indicate much yet, other than media and people just have a lot of cover & talk, and can't remain focusing in one thing or few bands for decades.

One can point out many of "highlights": I recall Merzbow collaborated with some Norwegian bm guys? Pan Sonic did remix for Björk in one of her single "b-sides", Brighter Death Now appearing in movie soundtrack, and so on and on, but it doesn't mean much when you compare these "highlights" to normal route what experimental music has taken.

Due splintered nature, a lot of things happen. In local classical music concert hall, there has been some pretty abstract contemporary concerts. Never went. Just didn't hear about them in time. There used to be regular performance art clubs. Went only to one I playd live show myself, and I recall there was other noise too, but never really found out about them in time. It's hard to talk about current moment, when you can't get even focused look what is happening. Finnish national radio plays domestic electro-acoustic and modern music in Ääniversumi program. Sometimes plain classical, sometimes noisy/e. Some exhibitions have had live noise/experimental or soundtracks. Even very close a'la Bizarre Uproar playing for Jukka Siikala, but also there are CD releases like Teollisia Tilanteita from 90's as pretty good minimalist soundtrack of installation. Or the one 3" cd I reviewed while ago, which wasn't good enough to remember, but something nevertheless. Grey Park and related keep actively pushing their art/noise mix in Finland. LaLaLa guys mix comic/art activities and weirdo noise, even up to multi-day festival in Helsinki last year. Last year Grunt invaded into biggest Gothic festival. Bizarre Uproar have featured in number of black metal shows. Keränen just played some live shows in unusual places for harsh noise unit. What was it? That one big hipster festival and motorcycle event or what? It's early in morning here. My mind is still half sleep... Umpio played in punk shows. Upcoming live with Terveet Kädet! Also Umpio crossed over to some hip hop label too. Strange, but not that far from what he usually does. Aeoga and Halo Manash or these, was it last year they played 4 days in row in gallery in Helsinki? They have done lot of shows, good CD's distributed in relatively big numbers.  All the time a lot happens, when you one doesn't narrow the view into original industrial. It covers hundreds if not thousands of people, which seems bigger impact than original industrial had directly over here?? Bands/artists are able to do thing what would have been unheard in times of supposed "peak" of popularity. Perhaps rise of this music enabled several artists to even gain (state-) grants. Even in Finland, I think bands like Borbetomagus and Consumer Electronics wasn't all funded from organizers pockets, but actually some institutions behind funding? Artists like Lasse Marhaug and Sudden Infant, I think they both get art council support to be able to play. Sudden Infant did experimental music for kids event in biggest finnish modern museum in middle of Helsinki! Was it "huge" in terms of success? Maybe not, but in terms of possibilities and aiming for new innovative things, big success.
In couple months, we're expecting perhaps biggest neo-folk event in Finland. Not that majority of artists would have much to do with "noise", but you'll find link. Venue is old church, now rock venue in middle of Helsinki. With capacity of perhaps 600+ people. We'll see how much Of The Wand And The Moon, Aurinkopyörä, Tevahäät and Halo Manash. Could this have happened in past? I don't think so. It is thanks to connection with metal organisers giving it a try.

If we dissect the thing all the way into raw basic power electronics or total wall of harsh noise, it's easy to get some overall picture. Now when "this music" has expanded into such a massive diversity, nobody has time and funds to be up-to-date. Now just popularity is splintered among huge amount of people doing it, instead of couple pioneers. I think it would need magazines & active participants to report about what has happened. If all you hear is the spam mailings of handful of labels, it is sadly quite poor experience of what it could be.

Fall of sales and fall of attention is not really downfall of noise itself, but change in the culture where role of music has changed and also due sheer volume of supply. I would guess noise now sells more than ever, but its not based on huge printruns of single items, but extremely huge availability of all kinds of material.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I think it would need magazines & active participants to report about what has happened. If all you hear is the spam mailings of handful of labels, it is sadly quite poor experience of what it could be.

Which is something what could be good to hear. I and few other have posted about Finnish scene, S.I.C.K., live gigs etc. There are reports and band listings. I'm always curious to hear of other countries from people who are actually involved. If your country has something what needs to be exposed, feel free to do so.

[Jaakko V.]

Due splintered nature, a lot of things happen. In local classical music concert hall, there has been some pretty abstract contemporary concerts.

Yes. Last year Lasse Marhaug, Vladislav Delay and Zoät-Aon performed in a classical music concert hall here in Oulu, as a part of a series of concerts concentrating on 'new music'.