"economy" of noise - tapes

[Andrew McIntosh]

So is it really about affordability and accessibility? Or is it about fashion?

There's this notion that cdrs don't reflect any serious intention on the artist's part. I suppose a lot of that has to do with how many cdrs were floating around the Noise scene around the start of the '00's, too many of them just being tossed-off pieces of crap. Of course, a great many cassettes prior to the '00's were also tossed-off pieces of crap (not to mention a great many vinyl releases) but tapes have a higher aesthetic cache so unfortunately the stigma has stuck.

There's also the argument that cdrs don't last as long as glass master cds. There's been all sorts of to-and-fro-ing on forums like this about that issue. I tend to think storage is the issue there, but while it's a reasonable criticism of cdrs I don't think it's a reasonable argument for never having anything to do with them.

And, having thought about your valid points about signing away rights, I still maintain Bandcamp and other host sites are the best option. I don't feel my rights are threatened by either Bandcamp or SoundCloud and I don't believe labels like Tesco Germany, Seasons Of Mist, Old Captain, or individual artists like Lustmord or Bizarre Uproar, all who have Bandcamp pages, feel their rights are threatened either. And they aren't the only host sites, either. I don't know, for example, what the deal is with Archive.org but I don't think anyone signs their rights away to them. When you go through a third party, there has to be give-and-take, even if it's an underground label.

I've also often wondered that if people are prepared to sink good money into runs of physical items, why not start up their own website and upload their own material to that? A yearly fee could be just as costly as five hundred copies of a tape or vinyl lp, surely? I haven't looked into prices myself, though, so I could be wrong, but I think it could still be an option.

[SinkSlopProcessing]

And, having thought about your valid points about signing away rights, I still maintain Bandcamp and other host sites are the best option. I don't feel my rights are threatened by either Bandcamp or SoundCloud and I don't believe labels like Tesco Germany, Seasons Of Mist, Old Captain, or individual artists like Lustmord or Bizarre Uproar, all who have Bandcamp pages, feel their rights are threatened either. And they aren't the only host sites, either. I don't know, for example, what the deal is with Archive.org but I don't think anyone signs their rights away to them. When you go through a third party, there has to be give-and-take, even if it's an underground label.

It's not that bandcamp is a threat to artists. On the contrary, they provide a service. But they do so via the same Faustian pact that major labels did back in the day. But at least big labels promised fame, fortune, and groupies in exchange for signing away all your rights. What does bandcamp promise you? Some hosting, and a link that you can copy/paste. Not worth their unreasonable demands, in my opinion.

I've also often wondered that if people are prepared to sink good money into runs of physical items, why not start up their own website and upload their own material to that? A yearly fee could be just as costly as five hundred copies of a tape or vinyl lp, surely? I haven't looked into prices myself, though, so I could be wrong, but I think it could still be an option.

That's a damned good idea. But a website & its maintenence is work (and often intimidating work at that to non-techies). I took the half-assed route and made the world's most rudimentary website in order to not have to deal with the hosting sites. Now I'm wondering what the rights situation is with selling digital files via PayPal. Hmmm, an intriguing prospect... I'm going to have to dive into PayPal's legal terms & conditions now. Wish me luck...

[Brad]

My preference for format is CD > tape > CD-r.  (Though I don't really collect CD-r.)

The last tape I bought through mailorder was from a label in my home province, at a cost of $9 CAD including shipping for a single tape (approx €6.25). So not too bad compared to what some people are paying.  I still pick up tapes at shows for $5 each sometimes.  

[Goat93]

I've also often wondered that if people are prepared to sink good money into runs of physical items, why not start up their own website and upload their own material to that? A yearly fee could be just as costly as five hundred copies of a tape or vinyl lp, surely? I haven't looked into prices myself, though, so I could be wrong, but I think it could still be an option.

There are a Lot of Weblabels, who offer Downloads and Sites like Soundcloud and Bandcamp are also an Option. I think its just an Imagination, but files aren't that interesting. Actualy there are too much Music floating around, so maybe its a kind of sort out stuff. Or its the Imagination to "own" it and the proof is a Medium you can take in your Hands. No idea in the End, but i can't handle Files and the Music isn't "worth" (Money, Attention ect) the same like a Media for me.

[urall]

well, about the longevity of tapes <> cdr's ... i can pull out a 25 y/o tape from my collection and it still plays fine, can't say the same for all my 00's spraypainted americanoise cdr's :)

[Zodiac]

And I'm glad to pay the bills if it helps networking. Labels/traders/bands whatever and offer other platform than for example facebook/discogs..

I dont care for other peoples opinions that much and so be it: HAIL (!!!) you for doing this !!! o/

[deutscheasphalt]

Regarding mikko's very first post and reasons for this thread; I think the "pain limit" for tape prices depends on the buyer. It's the price on the edge of wanting to buy the release but not willing to pay the listed price cause it's too high. That also depends on the buying power. If I'm broke I have to make a choice on which release I spend my available monthly money.
Then again, you should be quite sure the quality of the music is worth buying the record and thus meets your personal attributes of quality (production, writing, packaging, format, etc.)
Unless you're a collector, buying the limited tape release instantly when it comes available online without even samples being available. You cannot be sure the music's good or the price is worth it even if you know the artist's previous works.
For me personally, the music is the most important thing by far. Secondly artwork and packaging because I love the physical format.

To tape prices in general: they should be kept as cheap as possible and every part of the distro involved towards the final customer should be sure of how much profit is enough.
Is the artist expecting profit from selling recordings or sees it as a promotion for paid bookings?
How much is "enough" profit for the manufacturer?
Which costs need to be covered by the profit? Hours of d.i.y. assembling the releases? Costs for a store? Or are you happy to make "roughly 100 bucks per batch" for whatever comes next.
If this ends up in your rough calculation of 15€ per tape it's the way it is.

And for me "private" music still exists. I can approve of (artist-self-)releasing a ldt. 20 copies special boxset in private, giving it to friends and other artists who influenced your works maybe.
There's no point though, making a release publicly available limiting it to an amount you're sure some fans are gonna miss out on.

[urall]

Unless you're a collector, buying the limited tape release instantly when it comes available online without even samples being available. You cannot be sure the music's good or the price is worth it even if you know the artist's previous works.

There's no point though, making a release publicly available limiting it to an amount you're sure some fans are gonna miss out on.

well, i don't want to be called a collector just because i don't want to miss out on a release of a label or artist i like.
I like tapes as well because of the format but i don't want to end up paying too much after it has been sold out (and i usually don't).

That's why i think it's really awesome when sometimes a label or artist sees there's a demand for it, they do a second run.
Of course, you don't know if that's going to happen up front...

[collapsedhole]

That's why i think it's really awesome when sometimes a label or artist sees there's a demand for it, they do a second run.
Of course, you don't know if that's going to happen up front...

when i release someone elses work i always make it clear from the beginning that i have no problem with future artist editions/reissues/whatever. my ability to release <100 tapes is just a stepping stone to a (possibly) wider audience, and/or just a chance to work with an artist i am a fan of myself.

i have personally always thought of tapes, no matter how elaborate the packaging, best served as the way to get a release into the fans hands with little difficulty. and once its out there, if it is a great tape, word will travel even if only 50 copies made. chances are one of those end up in the hands of a 'more professional' label, and i would think it is the hope of any artist to get a second/third edition made or material re-issue on cd or lp.

if i have the spare tapes available and someone requests a specific release i dub them up an 'official bootleg' in variant packaging, usually as trade item or for little more than postage price.