logic of micro release within noise?

Started by FreakAnimalFinland, December 18, 2010, 10:50:09 AM

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FreakAnimalFinland

old topic.. yet lets give it another run!

I have not been very active in comic "scene" for some time due being too busy. But I recall the growing irritation with "new generation" of self publishers was the change for ultra micro level.
While in past, most of people who draw and published, aimed to create something relatively ambitions. Perhaps reaching 20 pages, 32 pages or even 52 pages zine, sold at equivalent of 1-2 euros. And printing costs were actually exactly same as now. I remember when we got local printer to do us for 0,40 finnish markka per double sided xerox, and it felt so cheap mere price urged us to do zine. Until recent (last summer) paper and print costs increase, I could still do for same price.
Anyways, it was even cheaper, when you knew where exactly to go make it.
And how did this change the comic world? Well, as opposed to what self published comics were in 80's and 90's, in 2000's you saw uprise of micro publications. People didn't bother to make proper magazine or proper comic box. There was increase of some 8 page A6 (postcard size), there was increase of 16/A5 filled with some sketches, but no actual "finished work". Print runs are often designed so it can be sold in annual festival. So it won't be available anywhere, ever. You either meet the guy, or don't. He either has copies in his small merch table, or it's out. And you do wonder whether you'd buy it anyways, since now while manufacturing is pretty much the same, the prices has been multiplied to extremes. I recall discussion of this self publishing veteran, who also teaches comics in school, and some girls who made their "zine". It was one A4 folded twice, making it "8 pages". Sold for 2 euros. He kept saying, in role of teacher as well as customer, that this is way out of line. There simply isn't any justification. Girls keep giggling and saying to this, probably in their eyes, utmost relic of times long gone, that they put effort and it costed a lot to copy these and they don't even have many. Yeah. And I'm sure they sold every copy during the fest.

Reality within noise scene often reminds this situation, and since we aren't just teenage girls, impressed about our skill to pull together couple pages of sketches, I wonder what is the real logic of micro releases. What is the justification of pricing, what is the logic of limiting release what you could easily produce on demand? I don't know is it just me, or has recently the amount of ridiculously small editions increased?
I mean, I get promo mails from bands who tell they want to do release on my label, but before that, they have ltd 10 copies tape being self financed. Ten? You check out the batches of the HNW labels or those tape labels who put out a lot of product, and often you see "this is greatest item ever existed" -enthusiasm and in end of description: limited to 17. ... what?
While the gates are opened, the flood sweeps through the mud and collects various ideas around it. With the attitudes of "we price this not according to what it cost to make, not how long release is, but what we feel it is worth. I think 2 minute lathe cut, 60€ is accurate". Yeah, 60€ if it was made by Yoko Ono, TNB or Whitehouse!
"It's all hand made", "it is special", "I am special", "buy it or don't, it's up to you".

Many discussions come into conclusion of solution being buy it or don't and shut up. If you don't like it, stay away. And to certain point, this is valid. I won't be going to reggae shops, telling how much they suck, and buy their merch just to be miserable. But within the field I operate, it seems like some modern day "everybody is entitled to.." BS, which tries to do the best to suppress criticism, feedback and sharing ideas.

There seems to be trend of offering less and less, for more and more money. Tapes have reached the kind of minimum lengths and minimum substance they can offer. But perhaps the price asked for them, and volume of how many different titles can be put out, has yet to reach it ultimate levels?

Not long ago, I had someone question why in art, the audience would be of any importance. Why would I be concerned does CD sell 50, 200 or 500. I kept saying, that I'm happy with pretty much any amount of units moved, but I believe guy who used to sell for example 500 books, now settling for 50. Or band who used to sell 1000 discs, now doing 50, seems like demand & supply doesn't match. High priced items sold by pre-orders to collectors, while the old audience didn't even know something happened. My argument would be that 500 units it's not really that BIG. It is still pretty small. I can take this kind of critic about being too audience oriented, where one thinks issue from point of view of "consumer", yet that is in form of distributor/publisher. Not in role of "artist".
I'm little critical towards the "bubble", create by focusing on idea based on 20 persons willingness to consume, seemingly endlessly. Then the club has already shrank to so small, what exactly is the point anymore?

So. This hardly makes sense. Just typed load of shit while drinking morning coffee. And I am listening to some ridiculously(?) limited TNB LP with handmade cover and mere tape hiss = silence, cut on transparent LP! Hah, it really hits the spot! I can see logic in this, since such covers could not be made too many. And that release is such a "art statement", it hardly requires treatment of proper album.
But in general, it would be nice to see comments from labels and publishers, who have constantly sold out titles in matter of days or weeks, and still don't aim to increase editions? Or people who treat noise as "artists career" and price accordingly. How does this change from plain "release" into desperation of starving artist pulling triple prices of items change its nature?

What would be the benefits of making 50 instead of 25? Or making 100 instead of 50? Making 100 pressed records instead of exclusive 20 copies lathecut? What would be benefit of keeping CDR and tapes in print. As long as orders roll in, at least once a year? Or adjusting into idea, that when making release, it's not necessarily all paid-by-the-hour labor what you absolutely need to transform in cash funds? Must noise be the "career" one makes? Obviously, I'm not promoting idea that everything must be cheap, but we live in times of maximized profits for minimized efforts, and I doubt that can be good in long run?
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heretogo

There's also the problem of micro-editions encouraging people to release more ... more ... more! If the edition sells out within a week the artist/label obviously starts to to think about the next one. An "album" out every fuckin' forthnight or month! Great! And if the quality of one particular release isn't so amazing... who cares, it's only an edition of 20, right? I think it's safe to assume the release would be different (maybe even better) if 200 copies were pressed and a concious decision was made to support it and stand behind it. If the release sells out within a month, the edition was too small - make it bigger next time. There will always be room for extra-special mini-editions, even expensive ones. But it shouldn't be the standard mode of operation.

Of course, there are people who will question altogether the merit of "quality" in noise but frankly, those people are full of shit.


kettu

#2
isnt being a profilic artist or label a big thing in noise? Im not going to make a piechart of how much the output has increased per label/artist but I did check out what people were up to in the olden times. macronympha, acording to discogs put out 10ish things in 95. those old things make up a strong legacy to live up to so I dont think its all the newbs fault.

though I think that because there are so many people into this noisy stuff it has created an inflation, see c-10 that costs 9 dollars/20postage paid.

maybe drifting to offtopic but have I noticed that there are more people who didnt grow up in the underground scene(lol that sounds so elitist) these fuckers are likely more prone to mess with the handshake mentality of things being honest,pricing,quality and everything going like in the times of old.
wheres my pitchfork, lets drive them out of the village.

ill edit in that it might be difficult to analyze this subject without tackling everybody individually. if somebody has decided they only do  tiny runs then thats it. richie ramirez` label for example. hes decided thats his thing and theres not much to say after that.

Ashmonger

I think there are indeed different reasons why one could do this.
One of them might be merely practical: a friend of mine is active in noisecore (projects VRV and Primordial Sounds) and every time he gets an order he starts burning the CDrs and copying covers and everything. That seems a tiresome way of working to me.
So, then I can imagine it might be easier to burn, copy and assemble a batch in one go. But if you're never certain how many you'll be able to move, it's also not good to have 10 or more CDrs just lying around collecting dust, if you overestimate your release.
Looking at it this way, I can imagine that some people just think: ok, I'll make a batch of them, and when they're gone, I'm done with it.

I myself have been thinking about what might be the best way of doing this, since I'm working on some projects and have no idea how much interest there will be.

Of course, this way of thinking, is only correct for the first couple of releases an artist does, after a while he/she should know how much interest there is in his act.

Ernpe

I think we are talking of two different things here, price and availability.

I'm not worried about elitist limited to 10 editions. Even with bands I like, I don't feel urgent need to own everything. Like the recent XE lathe cut, sold out before I even noticed it was out and available. So what? Plenty of great records are still left unlistened and unobtained. Small edition, small effort releases are easy to ignore. Mediocre release limited to 20 is no problem. Mediocre release pressed 200 or 500 is a problem.

Of pricing, I'd like to see some connection between the producing costs and the price. Not just standard pricing for every cd. Paying 12 euros for a home recorded cd folded in a single A4, no matter how full color the A4 is, seems insane. While paying 15 for something like Hated Perverssions VA is no problem. Again, I think the problems is due only if one is a collector. I have no problem ignoring a record with unreasonable price/effort -rate. Well, not everytime b-grade package is mentioned by the label...
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heretogo

Quote from: Ernpe on December 18, 2010, 04:35:52 PM
Mediocre release limited to 20 is no problem. Mediocre release pressed 200 or 500 is a problem.

Well, I think it's the same thing as when you hang out too much with boring & mediocre people and end up being a boring & mediocre person yourself... Meaningless releases result in more meaninglessness. Obviously this wouldn't be a problem if there was an overabundance of great stuff being released but I'm not so sure that is the case. There's lots of stuff with potential - but it's not being fully realised. And even more remains on the level of the "fetish" (to use a trendy term, hah!) with no real sonic value.

I'm not a veteran of the noise scene and couldn't care less if things were better or worse "in the good ol' days". I'm just a music-lover who would like to see more truly breathtaking noise being released. And I think the ltd. to 20 way of doing things is really not helping this cause. I'm actually less concerned about the price issue. Most of the stuff is still dirt cheap compared to "real music".

And to stop the generalizations... I was just listening to the Rock'n'Roll Jackie & Pain Jerk cd. This is what I'm talking about! Exceptional noise that is full of personality and charm. Just great fun to listen to. And surprise surpise - it's an edition of 500.

Goat93

Good Question

Why is the new Xeno Lathe lim. 30?
Why is the Deathkey lim. 25?

why are the grunt tapes so limited? :(
Why are the Grunt LPs so limited?

For myself as answer, since i make the same shit:

I don't think more than 30 people wanna have it, so why should i make more?


WATERPOWER

Quote from: Goat93 on December 18, 2010, 06:27:44 PM
Good Question

Why is the new Xeno Lathe lim. 30?
Why is the Deathkey lim. 25?

why are the grunt tapes so limited? :(
Why are the Grunt LPs so limited?

For myself as answer, since i make the same shit:

I don't think more than 30 people wanna have it, so why should i make more?



My thoughts as well. I don't want to limit my releases so much, but I have to honestly ask myself, how man people really care?

bitewerksMTB

The only problem with ultra-lim items is publicly announcing them. 20 7"'s should sell just by sending out notices to usual customers, not possibly 1,000's on a forum. And even that's not really a problem.

For some reason, 20 7"'s seems more ridiculous than 20 tapes. I wouldn'tdo  something like that for another label as I wouldn't get many copies. I need a cpl personal spares plus a few for friends. If I dont' get that, no point in doing it. Other than that, more power to'em b/c most likely, it isn't something I can't live without & eventually someone will upload it on the internet for free download.

ADR

Quote from: Goat93 on December 18, 2010, 06:27:44 PM
Good Question

Why is the Deathkey lim. 25?


The only thing that was limited to 25 was the cover and overall 1 time packaging aesthetic. The music is the exact same as the lp that was 250 copies and will soon be available again on cd format.

Also, mentioning GRUNT limited lp's, Industrial Recollections seems to have already re-released such limited releases as "Terror & Degeneration" as 250(?) unit cd pressing for those who did not experience the release as it was limited to 100 vinyl copies previously, and I believe it may have also been a cdr at some point. I would like to think that as long as masters are still available for the older releases, that some of those will be available again as well.
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FreakAnimalFinland

25x Deathkey 12" is "art object" so to say. If one needs it for music, it is available as part of the double LP as well as upcoming double CD (ready now, announced soon). So it's not like it would hard or expensive to get. Only few people who may want to see additional violence towards semites, heh. Release indeed was more of result of consequences than planned release.
Double CD will be sold at price of single CD, at least at Freak Animal, despite slightly "unusual" packaging / expensive production costs.

I don't really know if there is that many limited Grunt tapes and LP's? Most of those releases dates back years, even decade, when situation wasn't what it is now. There wasn't forums, mailinglists and perhaps not even website. The recent releases, both of the recent albums have been pressed 500-800 copies, so I guess we can't really blame for small availability? Some of the items, like Grunt/Cloama collab CD has been available now for.. 7 years?
My blame on the post, doesn't go to labels, who manage to sell some of their releases eventually. If that's what someone read, perhaps should re-read it.
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

Goat93

I think the Limitations results mostly of the Deadstock of Micro Labels or directly Band Labels (As mine is). I have neither Money or Space to keep 500 CD's for 100 Years in stock if i have the feeling the marked is overflood and it is nothing which will sell. And if there are 1.000 Forums, Mailingslists or whatever or 6 Millionen, who looks at this already? I erase most Mailinglists, cause of this. Too much new Stuff, which nobody is interested in it. If some remember little time ago, Membrum Debile Propaganda have had in his Catalogue lots of Ultralimited Stuff for over Years in Program. In my opinion nothing have changed, beside of fast sold out situations with some releases.

I don't want to blame somebody, its just there are so many limited releases out, where it would sell much better and so much unlimited stuff, nobody cares about...

FreakAnimalFinland

I should underline the fact, that limitation seems to mostly apply on things what you COULD make more.

I mean, if you make 200 vinyl, since you believe that's what you sell, that's the risk you take. If suddenly there are 200 gone, and once a month someone ask for it. Due demand of 12 per year sale, it doesn't necessarily make sense to press 100 or 200 more.
But, most of the ultra limited releases, as mentioned in the opening, are amongst releases that you can and often you will do by yourself, and can duplicate more any time, with little effort.

It can't be justified by "I don't have room". Room for what? Few J-cards, file on computer or little pile of master-papers you xerox and cut? Handful of blank tapes and discs? And can storage 100 tape covers in size of dvd cover. One could run label of 100 releases in stock from tiny cardboard box. This was the good thing in labels such as: Open Wound, Nihilistic Recordings, Come Organization (= live assault archives), Broken Flag, Extreme, Zero Cabal, Con-Dom, Sound of Pig, RRRecords, and so on and on. Where are their modern day equivalents?
I'm thinking White Centipede, who boldly advertised their tapes unlimited. Good sounding chrome tapes, decent J-card covers, decent prices. True Force/Pain Electronics? Has these been doing well? I hope so!

The idea, that release is available, allows one perhaps actually be more than just blind "consumer", and label more than bulk merchant. There are a lot of releases, which you simply don't have time to think do you want them or not. You either buy it within days or hours, or miss it. If you actually want to check of few reviews, little customer feedback,.. it may be too late.

Vinyl and CD, we live on mercy of limited possibilities, which is about making decision and having it right or wrong and just living with it. With CDR, tape, etc. basically only limitation is state of mind.
Eventually, when there is really no demand, it's fine. It very justified to delete item from list, when demand is small and plenty 2nd hand copies circulate. I don't think currently dominating state of mind is about giving releases chance to be more than aimed to be sold out consumer products? And I have a feeling, that it's among some of the reasons why many of releases aren't as good as releases were, what were made to be available for unforeseen future. To be noticed, to be talked about, to be interesting still decades later.

I do accept the fact of art object, which due its nature remains limited. But majority of releases are just music on carrier. Nothing else.

I do acknowledge for example Waterpower's view, questions how many people actually care? In deed. The thing is, that for many small labels, it would be possible to FIND OUT. Unless decision of being tiny, unwanted and ignored is default. It's hard to give support to labels as distributor, when nothing is available. Or there is no possibility to re-stock when needed.

With my recent tapes, I suspected that 100 is perfectly enough. Probably even stays in stock for next year. Happens to be, that they did sell more. And I did duplicate more. How much more is needed, will remain to be seen. I could have made 50 and charged 10/each. I could have called it quits when 100 is gone. But chose otherwise, since I felt these releases may deserve more than be forgotten when next batch arrives. Moderately priced, available as long as it seems reasonable to keep them available.

I won't be telling how to run labels, but I will tell, there are options. And some options may be good. Fact that your release never became rare or expensive, may be good. I really really hope, that someone launches proper industrial-noise (tape-) label, which will match the standards set long ago. Proper tape albums, proper availability, aimed for landmark, rather than quick masturbation.
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A.R.GH

talking specifically about small labels/project that release small amount of copies because of there's small demand: is a good option release something and not announce "this is only limited to 20". Something i did in the past was release a small amount of copies for a couple of releases (25-30) and see what happens, if you see you are running out of stock and actually people are asking for the item, make some more (of course I'm talking about cd-r and tapes, for cd's there's no option, you must make a lot), and just stop making copies when you stop seeing demand

Andrew McIntosh

#14
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on December 18, 2010, 09:57:59 PMWith CDR, tape, etc. basically only limitation is state of mind.

The limited edition cdr is something I'll never understand.
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