are you guys still seeing/releasing/purchasing cd-r releases? I ask because so much is being done with cassette and digital format now it seems....
CD-r is the worst format possible. Acceptable? Never.
better a good and well produced CDr than a shitty tape!
I guess the problem with CD-R is the short lifespan. It's not even about supposed cheapness or the fact that everyone can create one at home in 1-2 minutes, but the technical flaws. Total classics like some Strict or Atrax Morgue releases have just simply stopped working due to being "too old" and nothing more. As opposed to that, even tapes from the 80ies play just fine. So, my question is whether a CD-R is actually a real "music format" or just a temporary storage device (however, it would lose when directly compared to a flash drive or external data storage). Of course, a pro CD-R may look neat and professional, but well...
Of course, every further aspect of the CD-R image are a result of this. Larger artists often don't agree to CD-R releases due to the negative connotations, just like a published author wouldn't agree to stapled together xerox copies of his newest work. Established labels often don't want the hassle with malfunctioning discs. Also, real CDs aren't that expensive to press anymore, which was different during the CD-R boom, if I am not mistaken. So, probably, the bad image just stems from peoples' contact with the format. I mostly see young "Bandcamp artists" selling CD-R, which makes sense in a way, but on the other hand, maybe digital sales would be just as high, if there were no physical alternative...?
I have CDRs that I burned when CD burners became available on computers like 20 years ago and they still play fine. I guess it's a matter of CD quality and burning process (who still burns CDs in 4x speed?) It is a good format to transfer data, including music, or trade files.
As a proper support for a release? No way. If you can take the time to make an odd and annoying cover that won't fit my shelves for your CDR you might as well take the time to dub it on tape.
If you want to be retro and very '00s it is. That's how I think of a CD-R nowadays. Back then I didn't know that they didn't last forever and do therefore mostly associate them with that time and that music - and not great quality. I used to think they were smarter and better than tapes, but I guess they are not.
But if you don't want to lose the data on your old CD-R, what's the most damaging? Sunlight? Other electronic devices? Or just age?
these are all really thoughtful answers so thanks everyone for that. I feel like a cd-r would absolutely have to be kept very cheap if they were going to be sold and even then I feel I would personally have it as merely a component to a larger art piece ie a zine or something. Making it available digitally in addition to the cd-r could perhaps be a solution to the loss/temporary aspect. They DO carry a certain early-00s vibe, but who knows that may be in style in a few years haha. Thanks for the response, keeps the insights coming!
Well, be careful what kind of decade and nostalgia you're pinning to them if you want to avoid being part of the PROBLEM that afflicts modern day attitudes to tapes. Maybe cd-r will have a massive resurgence in 2030 and be considered a cool, retro product if you aren't careful. WATCH IT
I have no problem with the format at all given I'm not being charged a stupid amount for one. I've mentioned elsewhere that I think it's an inferior format for reissuing material that might as well be put on a proper CD but I also reckon cd-r's value as a quick, homemade, cheap, non commercial object for music/art presentation has become massively overlooked by a noise scene which has in more recent years become consumed with ideas of professionalism.
The short answer is the easy one: it has its place within the plethora of other formats that music will find its way onto.
might be a thread of interest to you:
http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=7394.0
Considering price (both to make and retail), blank quality, and burning know-how, they're a fine medium. Other than an artifact trinket, I don't understand why someone wouldn't just set up a bandcamp page or the like. Skip the potential quality curve all together.
It'd be a colossal pain in my arse in 2017 to get a CDR. I don't have a CD player hooked up any more and half the time they've been spray painted so I don't want to stick them in my laptop. I have a couple of shoe boxes in my basement filled with CDrs. Frankly I hve zero interest in adding any more CDRs to those boxes. I keep them in a cedar closet so I bet they smell like cedar now.
I love the idea that it could be considered "retro".
Quote from: holy ghost on November 25, 2017, 02:04:17 AM
It'd be a colossal pain in my arse in 2017 to get a CDR. I don't have a CD player hooked up any more and half the time they've been spray painted so I don't want to stick them in my laptop.
As an aside, this concerns me. I have a lot of my collection backed up on data DVDrs, and I've been delaying transferring those to hard drives. I won't get the last laugh.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on November 25, 2017, 08:38:58 PM
Quote from: holy ghost on November 25, 2017, 02:04:17 AM
It'd be a colossal pain in my arse in 2017 to get a CDR. I don't have a CD player hooked up any more and half the time they've been spray painted so I don't want to stick them in my laptop.
As an aside, this concerns me. I have a lot of my collection backed up on data DVDrs, and I've been delaying transferring those to hard drives. I won't get the last laugh.
I have no interest in "clouds" or "drives" at this point but I would be interested in the day you can access say, 500GB or 1TB of space for music for free, away from your computer. I have two drives I sporadically back up - not often enough I feel though. I would love to have the knowledge that I won't loose any data if my wife's aging laptop dies. Maybe this exists? I'm honestly not looking that hard. But a "cloud" backup would be reassuring. I mean shit, my email is basically my backup for anything I want to actually save.
Quote from: theotherjohn on November 26, 2017, 11:31:13 AMas we're increasingly moving towards a digital future
It is the simplest of matters in our digital present to rip music from a cdr and just have it on drive, which of course is backed up except by total morons. As for future possibilities that's only worth dealing with when and if they happen. If we've got something that works nicely and simply right now, use it until something better comes along.
And as for releasing music digitally, unless you're putting in the serious money to get a decent cd release with all the bullshit extras, just upload it to fucking Bandcamp already! If you're going to put out a cdr it would want to have some very serious physical enticements along with it, like a sex robot or an original Picasso or fifty kilograms of prime marijuana or something. If all you're doing is producing fifty to a hundred copies of something with a simple cover, you are an idiot. There's Bandcamp, there's Soundcloud - shit, you could put the money you invest in a cd and have your own fucking web space to upload sound to.
The only thing that's going to stand out is whether the music/noise is any good or not. The great thing about putting it online is what an equaliser it is. You can't rely on format, fancy packaging, limited editions, all that bullshit. In fact there's no guarantee that anyone will notice at all (and in this scene plenty of opportunity for it to be consciously ignored, more than once I've read guff along the lines of "do not send online links, we only review physical formats, oh except for cdrs because that says the artist isn't serious" for example).
EDIT: JUST DO A RUN, IF IT DOESNT WORK OUT THEN MOVE TO SOMETHING ELSE.
Re: Preservation: Play any 30 years old tape or vinyl, you will listen the sound, "data" will be preserved for the most part. No need for back-up. CD will probably play too. If not, you totally lost it though. CDR ? Maybe 10-20 % of them will work. HDD ? Haha ! So the digital present requires you to do back-ups of the back-ups, all the time, just in case, cause you never know, or better ... cause you know ! They will fail.
I doubt if old recordings were not recorded on tape, would be still "alive" , for many various reasons.
Quote from: Theodore on November 26, 2017, 09:43:43 PM
Re: Preservation: Play any 30 years old tape or vinyl, you will listen the sound, "data" will be preserved for the most part. No need for back-up. CD will probably play too. If not, you totally lost it though. CDR ? Maybe 10-20 % of them will work. HDD ? Haha ! So the digital present requires you to do back-ups of the back-ups, all the time, just in case, cause you never know, or better ... cause you know ! They will fail.
I doubt if old recordings were not recorded on tape, would be still "alive" , for many various reasons.
ALL CD media, pro or CDR, will degrade and become unplayable. The reflective material oxidizes. The laminates lose their bond. It's called "disc rot". Eventually, cassettes, like all magnetic stratum media, will need to be baked or conserved by newer, yet undeveloped methods that will likely be more costly than anyone could afford to salvage their collection. Is digital archiving a hassle? You bet. But it will likely always be affordable enough that the average music fan can remain their own archivist. It's one of the virtues, as well as never losing audio quality if checksums and verifications during moves and transfers are employed. Everything I just mentioned (CDs, tapes, digital) share one thing in common: unpredictability. You're never going to know when your CD will start glitching, or your cassettes will start flaking, or your digital media gets corrupted. A person who places a high value on their music will make backups of it all. Rip your CDs. Transfer your tapes. Get torrenting. There's no safe media, and there's no way to avoid making backups...unless you want, or enjoy, buying things a second and third time.
For the most part i agree. I disagree about unpredictability. Excluded any accidents of bad hadling tapes, vinyls, CDs are pretty predictable. They will last. Not forever, not as new, but for long enough and they won't fail deadly -the analog formats- . I sure backup / rip even those, but that's not a rush. Sometime in the years they will be ripped sooner or later. I am more doing it cause i want to, and not cause "i have to" . I know they will be fine. Loosing a couple of dB at the high frequencies, it's not an issue to be crazy.
On the other hand i rip CDR at first / second play. And i have mirror HDD backup, not connected, updated at least once a month, to check it is OK too. It's them HDDs they are totally unpredictable. Although, you have to be deadly unlucky to loose them both in 2-3 weeks period. If so, fuck it, thank your luck you are still alive at least.
Not everyone bothers or cares to do it. An old forgotten HDD or CDR probably won't play after 2 decades. A tape will.
Given that we exist in a universe that apparently is falling apart over a period of billions of years I take it as read that nothing lasts forever. For me the issue is of convenience in the here-and-now.
Physical formats - cost of production, cost of distribution, potential to be lost in the mail anyway, problems with storage, can scratch, warp, snap, degrade all too easily - etc etc etc.
Digital - easy to access, listen before you buy, a matter of a few minutes to download, can have on any computer or drive, no problems with storage - etc etc etc.
People aren't hanging onto old physical formats for reasons of how good they're meant to sound or how long they're meant to last. It's because people simply like having objects. That's why cdrs are still being used. Having a "release". As in, a "real release". Having the thing in your hands that announces it exists. It's emotionally reassuring for a lot of people. Like keeping the old stuffed toy they had as children instead of throwing it out. I'm not going to pretend I'm better, even after culling something like eighty percent of my former analogue things I've kept a few, mostly box-sets and what-not. But at least I'm not hampered with boxes and boxes of crap.
Valid points from The Other John. I don't know how much of a lost art sitting down and actually listening to an album from go to woah is. I'd suspect that a lot of people on this forum take the time from their days to actually listen and absorb. But I don't have a problem either with repeated listening of certain things. In fact, that's what I tend to do more often. Rather than a huge selection, I like the idea of a few choice items I know I'll enjoy. Tried and tested. A dreadfully conservative way of listening to music, but I've gone through my phase of being open to everything I can, I now feel old and grumpy enough to start closing down. Nice to have a decent meal every now and then but a lot of the times I just prefer to have chips and gravy.
One interesting thing I've noticed about having most of it on file is that a lot of the "joy" of having certain releases looses its appeal when it's just reduced to the mere sound component. I don't doubt that's one of the concerns a lot of people who prefer physical items have. That all the sound becomes pretty much just sound, instead of these supposedly significant releases of such worth as they are advertised. You've just got the sound and that's it.
I think it's great. It applies a ruthless Darwinian/Occam's razor to one's collection. "Do I have this thing because I actually like it or do I have it because I've convinced myself I'm meant to like it?". I've had to apply this to my own collection at least, and have been better for it. With the genres of music we deal with on this forum it's too easy to get caught up in the "gotta catch em all" game. I don't think I need another Con-Dom or Incapacitants release. What I've got is more than enough. As for all that Merzbow...
(Hadn't heard of Marie Kondo until now, and I'm a bit pissed off at this "minimalist" trend since it takes something that I would consider basic common sense and turns it into "a thing").
All valid points, I guess I'm working on the notion that a physical release is more tangible than a link to Bandcamp or SoundCloud. I have recordings on both sites, but I was brainstorming physical formats as something to have at live performances.
Quote from: L.White on November 24, 2017, 11:29:43 AM
better a good and well produced CDr than a shitty tape!
better a good and well produced tape than a shitty CDr!
I never understood why people in the 21st century still support CDr's (especially when keeping in mind the manufacturing costs of a professional CD), this has nothing to do with an so-called DIY-attitude, it's simply cheap crap and nothing more.
Quote from: shearling on November 28, 2017, 12:57:18 AM
All valid points, I guess I'm working on the notion that a physical release is more tangible than a link to Bandcamp or SoundCloud. I have recordings on both sites, but I was brainstorming physical formats as something to have at live performances.
Hey OP
Short run (50) Pro dubbed with thermal gloss printed disc and full colour cardboard sleeves and delivery can be got for about £1 each here in the UK
So why not?
Some extra cash from shows yes?
Chuck in a download code.
Do a good show!
Once you ask the (open) question of "acceptability".........well.........pff
Tapes are great.
Lathe cuts also.
Thumb drives.
Floppy dics(?)
Smoke signals...
Do what you can afford.
The shows the thing I've heard said :-)
All physical formats for music are (not) acceptable
It always amuses me when people in music genres with ultra negative viewpoints on life and everything talk about longivity of such unimportant thing (in the big picture) as 'music medium'. In the end every medium no matter if physical or digital can be easily destroyed by time, heat, repeat playing or dead servers. Pick your favorite.
CD-Rs even though just downplayed as 'cheap shit' unfortunately are among the easiest to make a backup and get an exact copy of what the artist originally intended to put on it.
Tapes these days are often just some kind of status symbols these days. Or tell me why would all those young folks listen to them when they were born way too late to have experienced them in the first place? Just a means to be part of the 'cool generation'.
I released a good bunch of releases on CD-R and the general interest hadn't been so great. I also got tape releases available that did just as bad or even worse so not sure there's really a 'format problem'. Probably other people had different experiences but that's what I can tell.
Some 20 year CD-Rs are dead now, some are not. Some CDs from 15 years ago are dead too. I guess there's also tons of tapes from the 80/90/00ths in abysmal state, unless they were just collectors items in a boring shelf.
Vinyl that's being released these days is in worse quality than old stuff done back in the day. But what about CD releases? With rather cheap prices as we got them these days noone knows what will become of them in 10 years from now? Will they rot even faster? Who knows...
Really enjoying 2017 me in this thread with no CD player hooked up meanwhile 2020 me has fished said CD player out of the basement since it seems like half of what I buy is CDs these days.....
Quarantine time and boredom has me digitize and reorganize my entire collection. Only done with CDs/CDrs so far since tapes/vinyl needs real time. Great to catch up on some never listened-to releases. My oldest CD is a Dire Straits from 1984, no problems in playback. Of my CDrs only two 3" ones were damaged in a way that there are artifacts in the rip (both from the early 2000s). I did store them mostly safely and none are played over 10+ times. I suppose self burned CDrs stored in my old car wouldnt play anymore, but I've thrown them all out long ago.
I guess I prefer tapes over CDrs aesthetically, however when if there is effort put into the art/packaging (i.E. not just a blank silver disc in a plain sleeve) I wouldnt mind picking up a CDr release of an artist I am interested in even today. Would I play it back or just play the lossless download that (usually) comes with such a release? I'll just play the files on my phone/pc hooked up to the stereo...
When going to press this Knurl CD the plant just assumed I wanted CD-R and when I noticed it on the invoice at the last minute they switched to "real" CD... and it was cheaper?
Quote from: absurdexposition on August 30, 2020, 07:17:12 PM
When going to press this Knurl CD the plant just assumed I wanted CD-R and when I noticed it on the invoice at the last minute they switched to "real" CD... and it was cheaper?
What was the volume? I'd guess once the glass masters are made the process would be quicker and cheaper raw materials.
Quote from: JLIAT on August 30, 2020, 07:50:38 PM
Quote from: absurdexposition on August 30, 2020, 07:17:12 PM
When going to press this Knurl CD the plant just assumed I wanted CD-R and when I noticed it on the invoice at the last minute they switched to "real" CD... and it was cheaper?
What was the volume? I'd guess once the glass masters are made the process would be quicker and cheaper raw materials.
That makes sense, but in that case... why assume & quote CD-R in the first place?
I can't remember what the hell I wrote about in this thread in the past before my big post deleting spree got the better of me, but I suppose that's almost a proven point in itself regarding the fleeting nature of digital lifespans...
So what's my 2020 perspective on CDrs? Well, I [still?] think they're an ideal format for short-term promotional purposes, but not for permanent releases. Plus sides are they are cheap, quick and easy to buy & burn, they're small/thin/light enough for shipping affordably, they come in different sizes (business card, 3" or 5") that approximate a single, an EP or an LP/album in play length, there's oodles of potential for packaging them to attract the eye/hands/senses, the sound is fine, they still have all the cool technical quirks that glass mastered CDs have (99 tracks max, plus a hidden index tracks and count down lead in tracks) etc... downsides? Well, they scratch pretty easily, have an aura of disposability, the lifespan can be unreliable if you get a shit supermarket brand, they contribute to the landfill, they're not 'proper CDs', they're not trendy in 2020... but compared to tapes or vinyl, these faults are considerably less demanding for both the casual music listener who just relies on their boombox or car stereo to hear music, or the audiophile with gear so precious and demanding that they ultimately spend more time hearing the dust than the ditties.
Anyway, let's get practical: if I was starting a noise project in 2020 and wanted to get my name out there, CDr would be the method I'd use. I'd buy a spindle of discs (25, 50 or 100) and burn said musical release onto them. I'd spend as much effort on designing and packaging them up as I would the music, ideally in a mostly computer-free way using found materials/photos or paper/cardstock (yes, there's an aesthetic dichotomy there regarding digital/analog means of producton, but ultimately it's a boring one so let's move on). I wouldn't put contact details or social media handles on the release - that would go on a separate included sheet. But then, and here's the crucial part: I would give away ALL my copies for FREE (well, nearly all if you want to keep a small amount for yourself). Either individually to people/projects you respect, or in bulk to distros whose catalogues you respect (national and international) with a kind request that they give them away to regular customers buying large orders from them. Don't send them to labels or zines as this isn't an exercise in instant gratification, getting reviews to sell copies or wiggling your way into getting a label to release your next work - instead it's about generosity and basic correspondence. That small network of artists, listeners, collectors, archivists and fanatics around the world who contact you back has more real life potential to it than a simple Like or forum reply could ever do, and the act of offering a free gift to someone new can itself lead to reciprocity in a small or big way, over the course of a lifetime (my final bit of advice: buy a world map and put pins into places where your release has ended up).
And you don't even have to stop there at that one exchange or release - keep doing it again and again, long into your hobby or career. CDrs are still a favoured format in the UK underground where they're handed out at gigs or traded in the pub for a pint, and whether it's a means to test out a running order, share your latest sound experiments with friends or use it as a precursor to a long-delayed 'proper' release, I still enjoy the format both for its cute novelty and for its convenience. And if you don't like the release, just pass it on to the next person who might like it without fretting too much about its precious qualities. It's only a CDr...
Quote from: theotherjohn on August 30, 2020, 10:55:34 PM
But then, and here's the crucial part: I would give away ALL my copies for FREE..... with a kind request that they give them away to regular customers buying large orders from them.
Sounds like a good plan.
Funny is people putting out CD-Rs but list them up as CD on discogs:
https://www.discogs.com/label/1790418-Nailed-Physicals
Quote from: absurdexposition on August 30, 2020, 09:05:11 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on August 30, 2020, 07:50:38 PM
Quote from: absurdexposition on August 30, 2020, 07:17:12 PM
When going to press this Knurl CD the plant just assumed I wanted CD-R and when I noticed it on the invoice at the last minute they switched to "real" CD... and it was cheaper?
What was the volume? I'd guess once the glass masters are made the process would be quicker and cheaper raw materials.
That makes sense, but in that case... why assume & quote CD-R in the first place?
They wanted you to scream & writhe a bit.
Quote from: CannibalRitual on August 31, 2020, 11:26:40 AM
Funny is people putting out CD-Rs but list them up as CD on discogs:
https://www.discogs.com/label/1790418-Nailed-Physicals
I've seen this happen with some electronic music labels. Tech Itch Recordings comes to mind. 10£ for a CDr labeled as a CD with flimsy paper packaging. Pretty lousy business practices which has put me off of buying from a label which I've loved since I was 14. But I just can't support that type of bullshit.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on August 31, 2020, 12:47:38 PM
Quote from: absurdexposition on August 30, 2020, 09:05:11 PM
Quote from: JLIAT on August 30, 2020, 07:50:38 PM
Quote from: absurdexposition on August 30, 2020, 07:17:12 PM
When going to press this Knurl CD the plant just assumed I wanted CD-R and when I noticed it on the invoice at the last minute they switched to "real" CD... and it was cheaper?
What was the volume? I'd guess once the glass masters are made the process would be quicker and cheaper raw materials.
That makes sense, but in that case... why assume & quote CD-R in the first place?
They wanted you to scream & writhe a bit.
Maybe, or some sales person not knowing that larger runs of CDr are uneconomic and once the order reached the technical guys knew this .... seems after about 400 copies CDr is not the best option...
hah.. I guess that is old news. I'd say that after 50, or 100, CDR is not the economical option!
Advantage of CDR is most of all for making edition of 1-20. If you're thinking to sell 50 physical items, you may as well press proper CD.
Quote from: ConcreteMascara on August 31, 2020, 07:25:18 PM
Quote from: CannibalRitual on August 31, 2020, 11:26:40 AM
Funny is people putting out CD-Rs but list them up as CD on discogs:
https://www.discogs.com/label/1790418-Nailed-Physicals
I've seen this happen with some electronic music labels. Tech Itch Recordings comes to mind. 10£ for a CDr labeled as a CD with flimsy paper packaging. Pretty lousy business practices which has put me off of buying from a label which I've loved since I was 14. But I just can't support that type of bullshit.
Remembers me of this project playing here, all from the US, so was excited to grab a few items after the show not having to pay for ridiculous shipping. Turns out that the €10 CD was only a cheap CDR with the artist name written down with a sharpy. I get that you want to make some extra money for your tour, or that it is easier to burn a few disks for a show rather than having to transport them all the time, but c'mon, don't disrespect your fans like that. Don't think I ever bought anything from him again after that, even if I like the music. Still feels sour somehow, however that's a bit ridiculous after all this time.
I think theotherjohn make a good case why a CDR is still viable, but honestly, I don't care much for it. If you give me a quality print of your artwork I'm fine with a digital download.
I've made a few 3" CDRs of my EPs because in the spirit of DIY I can do it all from my house and I'm looking at small quantities.
I would get them pro printed and pressed if I ever get to needing higher quantities.
I'm just gonna say: Thanks to those open minded people in a supposedly open minded genre.
It honestly doesn't matter what format as much as the context of the release, ect.
Sound quality is better than cassette.
Yes, I've never quite understood the fetish for tapes, even though I was reared on them. I will buy them where there's no alternative, but still...
Quote from: burdizzo on September 02, 2020, 11:00:00 AM
Yes, I've never quite understood the fetish for tapes, even though I was reared on them. I will buy them where there's no alternative, but still...
"The medium is the message" is a phrase coined by the Canadian communication thinker Marshall McLuhan and introduced in his Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man, published in 1964.[1][2] McLuhan proposes that a communication medium itself, not the messages it carries, should be the primary focus of study. He showed that artifacts as media affect any society by their characteristics, or content.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message
Quote from: theotherjohn on September 02, 2020, 01:25:33 PM
You know nothing of my work! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wWUc8BZgWE)
Boy if life were only like this....
Quote from: JLIAT on September 02, 2020, 11:14:09 AM
"The medium is the message"
With the format option now in fact an option that would seem more true than ever.
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on September 02, 2020, 04:58:33 PM
Stupid question then but-
digital = too perfect?
In a way yes, and so "unreal"... here is an example - links to the packaging thread BTW, by an Artist who collects White Albums...
not only does each Vinyl have music but a unique history of its being played and handled...
http://rutherfordchang.com/white.html (http://rutherfordchang.com/white.html) If you scroll down you can hear a montage of 100 white albums, (Eventually becomes NOISE) and a digital version would be pretty much no different to a single CD.
Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Sitting_in_a_Room
& visual 'version' Ian Burn Xerox Book -
Also all digital CDs are effectively just very big numbers, and there is therefore a fixed set of any digital media whereas analogue might be infinite?
(An audio CD stores music by patterns of bits. Each audio sample is 16 Bits, and each second of sound has 44100 samples... Multiply 16 by 44100, by 2 by 60 by 74 and we get 6265728000. That is the total number of bits that can be stored on a normal CD or CDR. If you convert this to bytes, you get around 740 megabytes, which is about right, 740 megabytes is the storage capacity of CDs and CDRs. Given that each bit in this totality can be different this gives us 2 to the power 6265728000 possible CDs, and no more, in this format.
http://www.jliat.com/APCDS/index.html)
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on September 02, 2020, 04:58:33 PM
And it's a weird thing that for me digital formats tend to sound worse...
Even more weird is that YouTube is the preferred listening format for so many!
At the very least CDrs are consistent in terms of sound. I can't count how many times I've received a brand new cassette with a faulty/weak dub.
Assuming that a high quality product is guaranteed, I'm not particular when it comes to format, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish that my great CDrs were CDs, that is, if the latter does prove to have more longevity.
Quote from: implementsofsacrifice on September 03, 2020, 04:35:37 AM
At the very least CDrs are consistent in terms of sound. I can't count how many times I've received a brand new cassette with a faulty/weak dub.
I guess many are just dubbing tapes on a cheap boombox. Can't even adjust input level. When I started doing tapes again earlier this year at least I bought a tape drive that's been refurbished. The only 'new' tape drive that I've seen available seemed like it wasn't necessary as good.
Sometimes it happens when another label releases your stuff, you sell artist copies, then receive feedback stating the recording was basically unlistenable (due to a faulty dubbing), dubbed on wrong sides, or even only got an empty tape. Stupid shit like that can happen with cdrs too. But not everyone can afford/wants to do factory produced releases. For a simple release up to 50 or 100 copies one can probably handle to produce them on his own, otherwise where's the fascination with clicking a button to submit online and then let someone else's machines do it.
Quote from: CannibalRitual on September 03, 2020, 02:21:47 PM
Quote from: implementsofsacrifice on September 03, 2020, 04:35:37 AM
At the very least CDrs are consistent in terms of sound. I can't count how many times I've received a brand new cassette with a faulty/weak dub.
I guess many are just dubbing tapes on a cheap boombox. Can't even adjust input level. When I started doing tapes again earlier this year at least I bought a tape drive that's been refurbished. The only 'new' tape drive that I've seen available seemed like it wasn't necessary as good.
Sometimes it happens when another label releases your stuff, you sell artist copies, then receive feedback stating the recording was basically unlistenable (due to a faulty dubbing), dubbed on wrong sides, or even only got an empty tape. Stupid shit like that can happen with cdrs too. But not everyone can afford/wants to do factory produced releases. For a simple release up to 50 or 100 copies one can probably handle to produce them on his own, otherwise where's the fascination with clicking a button to submit online and then let someone else's machines do it.
I watch a forum or two about old stereo gear. It's common for younger people to come into the forums with genuine questions about the most basic things. "What are these red and black things?" Which turns out to be RCA jacks. Or "How do I get the wires to stay into my speakers?" When buying old technology, they might as well be trying to read Latin. The point is: I often get the impression that this fascination with old mediums is also accompanied with the approach that learning all the details is pointless tedium. "I don't care about any of that stuff. I just love cassettes." Same with vinyl. "Why would I care about mastering or how it is pressed?" A novelty with a novelty approach. Shit product and poor quality ensues.
I think Bloated is talking lossless digital. Not youtube streaming. But maybe I'm wrong.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on September 03, 2020, 05:30:16 PM
I watch a forum or two about old stereo gear. It's common for younger people to come into the forums with genuine questions about the most basic things.
I bet there's tons of questions on how to 'hack' tape write protection.
I think every format has it benefits and flaws. Tapes could be fantastic. I have almost no tapes that have deteriorated in use. There are some early 90's dubbed tapes with flutter/wow emerging, but it was just some cheap blank tapes where punk 7"s were being dubbed with pretty damn shitty gear. other than that, even tapes from early 80's, which sound brilliant today. It is surprising how often these days you do get shitty dubs or technically really weak quality tapes you need to first adjust manually to play properly.
I would not expect 40 years old CDR to even work. So many of them are unplayable already now. There are some brands that promised guarantees that their discs should last 100 years or so. Yet most discs used by labels and artists were of course cheapest stuff available out there. CDR format itself is chemically deteriorating. There is nothing one can do to prevent this, as it is part of format itself. After X amount of years laser will not be able to read it anymore. Until that happens, of course it's fairly reliable. Regular CD is different, so unless there was some pressing mistake (like the UK early 90's desaster), or mistreatment of disc, that'll last longer than anyone here. Anyone concerned of preserving sound, pressed cd is way to go. If wanting just something cheap and temporary - CDR is just fine.
Related:
I just had utmost horror with couple of Emil Beaulieau "Big foot" CDR's being totally destroyed. PVC sleeve, xerox covers.. this results the notorious chemical reaction many may be familiar with? What we had here, was that PVC reacted with cover and insert, and insert melted into both surfaces of CDR. When ripping paper off the pvc, and the disc, xerox ink and paper fragments had been melted into cdr - both sides. This is of course not CDR fault, but the PVC sleeve. I do recommend anyone having PVC sleeves on records or CDR with "diy covers" to check out condition for some surprises. Damn what a horror to see Aube "Pulse Resonator" LP+7" set PVC react with the cover... and the vinyl itself.
I've hated this format since it's inception and vowed to never give into CD-r and that vow has been broken many times over. There are some really great releases on CD-r, there is a lot of stuff by the Grey Wolves on CDr and so I've given in to picking up those and pretty soon you say, well I've got these albums on CD-r, so now why not have those and pretty soon you just give in, but definitely don't care for them and they disc rot a lot quicker and some quicker than others.
CD-R is pure garbage, I couldn't understand the obsession for this format 20 years ago, and I still cannot. I remember, when I used to run a small black metal label, I wanted to release a CD and (probably a mix of my teenage naivety and their lack of transparency) didn't understand that the factory was actually printing on pro CD-R and not CD. Because of that, I lost plenty of set trades, and I still have copies thrown in my ex-bedroom. What a fucking delusion has it been haha.
Quote from: Into_The_Void on January 27, 2024, 02:39:18 PMCD-R is pure garbage, I couldn't understand the obsession for this format 20 years ago, and I still cannot. I remember, when I used to run a small black metal label, I wanted to release a CD and (probably a mix of my teenage naivety and their lack of transparency) didn't understand that the factory was actually printing on pro CD-R and not CD. Because of that, I lost plenty of set trades, and I still have copies thrown in my ex-bedroom. What a fucking delusion has it been haha.
I know exactly what you mean about the obsession from years ago. I remember back in like 2000 when they first came out with the CDr burner home unit, that looked like some oversized DVD player and CDrs were expensive then and the machine would take an eternity to copy over from master CD and how everyone thought that this was going to be tits from here on out and well turns out with time, not so not much, especially when specifically talking about the home unit shit, easily was replaced by better burners on home PCs. I remember being a teenager and thinking how this home unit was so great for about a month and after that my CDr copies of things just felt an imposter amongst my normal CD collection. A CDr copy of a friends actual CD, still didn't feel like the same thing. I got to hating that format back then pretty quickly, as it just symbolized generic format. It's kind of like the streaming thing today, some people and particularly young ones, just see a screen as like the only tangible thing these days because they've got their heads cocked downwards for 24 hours a day staring into a screen, it's like the whole modern world is part of the fucking Videodrome or something, I hate streaming same way if not worse than my memories of CDr, same feelings of, this isn't the same experience as with actual CD or tape. Then you've got like you say the Pro CDr and that's like this weird middle ground of kind of almost there...almost a real CD, but not so much! I can never understand the pro CDr, but I've forced myself to become somewhat tolerant of it, because of it's "official" release idea, rather then thinking of it as another xeroxed copy from a master.