is CD-r still an "acceptable" format?

Started by shearling, November 24, 2017, 05:11:51 AM

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Zeno Marx

#15
Quote from: Theodore on November 26, 2017, 09:43:43 PM
Re: Preservation: Play any 30 years old tape or vinyl, you will listen the sound, "data" will be preserved for the most part. No need for back-up. CD will probably play too. If not, you totally lost it though. CDR ? Maybe 10-20 % of them will work. HDD ? Haha ! So the digital present requires you to do back-ups of the back-ups, all the time, just in case, cause you never know, or better ... cause you know ! They will fail.

I doubt if old recordings were not recorded on tape, would be still "alive" , for many various reasons.
ALL CD media, pro or CDR, will degrade and become unplayable.  The reflective material oxidizes.  The laminates lose their bond.  It's called "disc rot".  Eventually, cassettes, like all magnetic stratum media, will need to be baked or conserved by newer, yet undeveloped methods that will likely be more costly than anyone could afford to salvage their collection.  Is digital archiving a hassle?  You bet.  But it will likely always be affordable enough that the average music fan can remain their own archivist.  It's one of the virtues, as well as never losing audio quality if checksums and verifications during moves and transfers are employed.  Everything I just mentioned (CDs, tapes, digital) share one thing in common:  unpredictability.  You're never going to know when your CD will start glitching, or your cassettes will start flaking, or your digital media gets corrupted.  A person who places a high value on their music will make backups of it all.  Rip your CDs.  Transfer your tapes.  Get torrenting.  There's no safe media, and there's no way to avoid making backups...unless you want, or enjoy, buying things a second and third time.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

Theodore

For the most part i agree. I disagree about unpredictability. Excluded any accidents of bad hadling tapes, vinyls, CDs are pretty predictable. They will last. Not forever, not as new, but for long enough and they won't fail deadly -the analog formats- . I sure backup / rip even those, but that's not a rush. Sometime in the years they will be ripped sooner or later. I am more doing it cause i want to, and not cause "i have to" . I know they will be fine. Loosing a couple of dB at the high frequencies, it's not an issue to be crazy.

On the other hand i rip CDR at first / second play. And i have mirror HDD backup, not connected, updated at least once a month, to check it is OK too. It's them HDDs they are totally unpredictable. Although, you have to be deadly unlucky to loose them both in 2-3 weeks period. If so, fuck it, thank your luck you are still alive at least.

Not everyone bothers or cares to do it. An old forgotten HDD or CDR probably won't play after 2 decades. A tape will.
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

Andrew McIntosh

Given that we exist in a universe that apparently is falling apart over a period of billions of years I take it as read that nothing lasts forever. For me the issue is of convenience in the here-and-now.

Physical formats - cost of production, cost of distribution, potential to be lost in the mail anyway, problems with storage, can scratch, warp, snap, degrade all too easily - etc etc etc.

Digital - easy to access, listen before you buy, a matter of a few minutes to download, can have on any computer or drive, no problems with storage - etc etc etc.

People aren't hanging onto old physical formats for reasons of how good they're meant to sound or how long they're meant to last. It's because people simply like having objects. That's why cdrs are still being used. Having a "release". As in, a "real release". Having the thing in your hands that announces it exists. It's emotionally reassuring for a lot of people. Like keeping the old stuffed toy they had as children instead of throwing it out. I'm not going to pretend I'm better, even after culling something like eighty percent of my former analogue things I've kept a few, mostly box-sets and what-not. But at least I'm not hampered with boxes and boxes of crap.
Shikata ga nai.

Andrew McIntosh

Valid points from The Other John. I don't know how much of a lost art sitting down and actually listening to an album from go to woah is. I'd suspect that a lot of people on this forum take the time from their days to actually listen and absorb. But I don't have a problem either with repeated listening of certain things. In fact, that's what I tend to do more often. Rather than a huge selection, I like the idea of a few choice items I know I'll enjoy. Tried and tested. A dreadfully conservative way of listening to music, but I've gone through my phase of being open to everything I can, I now feel old and grumpy enough to start closing down. Nice to have a decent meal every now and then but a lot of the times I just prefer to have chips and gravy.

One interesting thing I've noticed about having most of it on file is that a lot of the "joy" of having certain releases looses its appeal when it's just reduced to the mere sound component. I don't doubt that's one of the concerns a lot of people who prefer physical items have. That all the sound becomes pretty much just sound, instead of these supposedly significant releases of such worth as they are advertised. You've just got the sound and that's it.

I think it's great. It applies a ruthless Darwinian/Occam's razor to one's collection. "Do I have this thing because I actually like it or do I have it because I've convinced myself I'm meant to like it?". I've had to apply this to my own collection at least, and have been better for it. With the genres of music we deal with on this forum it's too easy to get caught up in the "gotta catch em all" game. I don't think I need another Con-Dom or Incapacitants release. What I've got is more than enough. As for all that Merzbow...

(Hadn't heard of Marie Kondo until now, and I'm a bit pissed off at this "minimalist" trend since it takes something that I would consider basic common sense and turns it into "a thing").
Shikata ga nai.

shearling

All valid points, I guess I'm working on the notion that a physical release is more tangible than a link to Bandcamp or SoundCloud. I have recordings on both sites, but I was brainstorming physical formats as something to have at live performances.

dreadfulmirror

Quote from: L.White on November 24, 2017, 11:29:43 AM
better a good and well produced CDr than a shitty tape!

better a good and well produced tape than a shitty CDr!

I never understood why people in the 21st century still support CDr's (especially when keeping in mind the manufacturing costs of a professional CD), this has nothing to do with an so-called DIY-attitude, it's simply cheap crap and nothing more.

Dyecap

Quote from: shearling on November 28, 2017, 12:57:18 AM
All valid points, I guess I'm working on the notion that a physical release is more tangible than a link to Bandcamp or SoundCloud. I have recordings on both sites, but I was brainstorming physical formats as something to have at live performances.

Hey OP
Short run (50) Pro dubbed with thermal gloss printed disc and full colour cardboard sleeves and delivery can be got for about £1 each here in the UK
So why not?
Some extra cash from shows yes?
Chuck in a download code.
Do a good show!

Once you ask the (open) question of "acceptability".........well.........pff
Tapes are great.
Lathe cuts also.
Thumb drives.
Floppy dics(?)
Smoke signals...

Do what you can afford.
The shows the thing I've heard said :-)



Cementimental

All physical formats for music are (not) acceptable

CannibalRitual

It always amuses me when people in music genres with ultra negative viewpoints on life and everything talk about longivity of such unimportant thing (in the big picture) as 'music medium'. In the end every medium no matter if physical or digital can be easily destroyed by time, heat, repeat playing or dead servers. Pick your favorite.

CD-Rs even though just downplayed as 'cheap shit' unfortunately are among the easiest to make a backup and get an exact copy of what the artist originally intended to put on it.

Tapes these days are often just some kind of status symbols these days. Or tell me why would all those young folks listen to them when they were born way too late to have experienced them in the first place? Just a means to be part of the 'cool generation'.

I released a good bunch of releases on CD-R and the general interest hadn't been so great. I also got tape releases available that did just as bad or even worse so not sure there's really a 'format problem'. Probably other people had different experiences but that's what I can tell.

Some 20 year CD-Rs are dead now, some are not. Some CDs from 15 years ago are dead too. I guess there's also tons of tapes from the 80/90/00ths in abysmal state, unless they were just collectors items in a boring shelf.

Vinyl that's being released these days is in worse quality than old stuff done back in the day. But what about CD releases? With rather cheap prices as we got them these days noone knows what will become of them in 10 years from now? Will they rot even faster? Who knows...

holy ghost

Really enjoying 2017 me in this thread with no CD player hooked up meanwhile 2020 me has fished said CD player out of the basement since it seems like half of what I buy is CDs these days.....

pidgeons

Quarantine time and boredom has me digitize and reorganize my entire collection. Only done with CDs/CDrs so far since tapes/vinyl needs real time. Great to catch up on some never listened-to releases. My oldest CD is a Dire Straits from 1984, no problems in playback. Of my CDrs only two 3" ones were damaged in a way that there are artifacts in the rip (both from the early 2000s). I did store them mostly safely and none are played over 10+ times. I suppose self burned CDrs stored in my old car wouldnt play anymore, but I've thrown them all out long ago.

I guess I prefer tapes over CDrs aesthetically, however when if there is effort put into the art/packaging (i.E. not just a blank silver disc in a plain sleeve) I wouldnt mind picking up a CDr release of an artist I am interested in even today. Would I play it back or just play the lossless download that (usually) comes with such a release? I'll just play the files on my phone/pc hooked up to the stereo...

absurdexposition

When going to press this Knurl CD the plant just assumed I wanted CD-R and when I noticed it on the invoice at the last minute they switched to "real" CD... and it was cheaper?
Primitive Isolation Tactics
Scream & Writhe distro and Absurd Exposition label
Montreal, QC
https://www.screamandwrithe.com

JLIAT

Quote from: absurdexposition on August 30, 2020, 07:17:12 PM
When going to press this Knurl CD the plant just assumed I wanted CD-R and when I noticed it on the invoice at the last minute they switched to "real" CD... and it was cheaper?

What was the volume? I'd guess once the glass masters are made the process would be quicker and cheaper raw materials.

absurdexposition

#28
Quote from: JLIAT on August 30, 2020, 07:50:38 PM
Quote from: absurdexposition on August 30, 2020, 07:17:12 PM
When going to press this Knurl CD the plant just assumed I wanted CD-R and when I noticed it on the invoice at the last minute they switched to "real" CD... and it was cheaper?

What was the volume? I'd guess once the glass masters are made the process would be quicker and cheaper raw materials.

That makes sense, but in that case... why assume & quote CD-R in the first place?
Primitive Isolation Tactics
Scream & Writhe distro and Absurd Exposition label
Montreal, QC
https://www.screamandwrithe.com

theotherjohn

#29
I can't remember what the hell I wrote about in this thread in the past before my big post deleting spree got the better of me, but I suppose that's almost a proven point in itself regarding the fleeting nature of digital lifespans...

So what's my 2020 perspective on CDrs? Well, I [still?] think they're an ideal format for short-term promotional purposes, but not for permanent releases. Plus sides are they are cheap, quick and easy to buy & burn, they're small/thin/light enough for shipping affordably, they come in different sizes (business card, 3" or 5") that approximate a single, an EP or an LP/album in play length, there's oodles of potential for packaging them to attract the eye/hands/senses, the sound is fine, they still have all the cool technical quirks that glass mastered CDs have (99 tracks max, plus a hidden index tracks and count down lead in tracks) etc... downsides? Well, they scratch pretty easily, have an aura of disposability, the lifespan can be unreliable if you get a shit supermarket brand, they contribute to the landfill, they're not 'proper CDs', they're not trendy in 2020... but compared to tapes or vinyl, these faults are considerably less demanding for both the casual music listener who just relies on their boombox or car stereo to hear music, or the audiophile with gear so precious and demanding that they ultimately spend more time hearing the dust than the ditties.

Anyway, let's get practical: if I was starting a noise project in 2020 and wanted to get my name out there, CDr would be the method I'd use. I'd buy a spindle of discs (25, 50 or 100) and burn said musical release onto them. I'd spend as much effort on designing and packaging them up as I would the music, ideally in a mostly computer-free way using found materials/photos or paper/cardstock (yes, there's an aesthetic dichotomy there regarding digital/analog means of producton, but ultimately it's a boring one so let's move on). I wouldn't put contact details or social media handles on the release - that would go on a separate included sheet. But then, and here's the crucial part: I would give away ALL my copies for FREE (well, nearly all if you want to keep a small amount for yourself). Either individually to people/projects you respect, or in bulk to distros whose catalogues you respect (national and international) with a kind request that they give them away to regular customers buying large orders from them. Don't send them to labels or zines as this isn't an exercise in instant gratification, getting reviews to sell copies or wiggling your way into getting a label to release your next work - instead it's about generosity and basic correspondence. That small network of artists, listeners, collectors, archivists and fanatics around the world who contact you back has more real life potential to it than a simple Like or forum reply could ever do, and the act of offering a free gift to someone new can itself lead to reciprocity in a small or big way, over the course of a lifetime (my final bit of advice: buy a world map and put pins into places where your release has ended up).

And you don't even have to stop there at that one exchange or release - keep doing it again and again, long into your hobby or career. CDrs are still a favoured format in the UK underground where they're handed out at gigs or traded in the pub for a pint, and whether it's a means to test out a running order, share your latest sound experiments with friends or use it as a precursor to a long-delayed 'proper' release, I still enjoy the format both for its cute novelty and for its convenience. And if you don't like the release, just pass it on to the next person who might like it without fretting too much about its precious qualities. It's only a CDr...