Industrial Recollections will re-issue complete Control Resistance discography within 2011. This will include all material band has released, including new track from 2010.
Project often utterly forgotten when talking about American power electronics, despite releases on well known labels like Power And Steel, State Art, Warcom Media, Zero Cabal,... I'm sure it was thanks to content of the material, yet their approach was relatively subtle when material issued by German labels. Compared the uncensored presentation of anthology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QlenqFBXxk
Complete discography will amount to about 1 CD? Not a large amount of output. Looking forward to it nonetheless, that new track/video is excellent.
yes. It will have also related side-project track added, still in total c. 1 hour.
Style varies from "industrial-metal" to power electronics.
these are great news. really looking forward to this!
This new track is killer! Looking forward to the disco cd!
Mostly heard enjoyable sounds from this project. But damn, those lyrics are horrible! (not talking content here, simply just that it's some seriously easy, uninspired takes). Never noticed that before - don't exactly think it works to their advantage that they're repeated again and again in that youtube video.
Quote from: nidding on June 20, 2011, 10:44:57 AM
Mostly heard enjoyable sounds from this project. But damn, those lyrics are horrible! (not talking content here, simply just that it's some seriously easy, uninspired takes). Never noticed that before - don't exactly think it works to their advantage that they're repeated again and again in that youtube video.
seems pretty trad to sing and write in that style. you dont have to say pleeeeaaaasssee
Quote from: RCB on June 20, 2011, 06:36:22 PMseems pretty trad to sing and write in that style. you dont have to say pleeeeaaaasssee
Exactly. It's perhaps a bit too traditional. Seems a tad easy to just use the same old, used-to-death rhetoric. Tradition is no excuse to just go through the motions.
I guess I've always had a hard time with political acts and political content with no real political value - unintelligent or inarticulate "preaching to the choir" (which these lyrics can also be interpreted as) has little to no political merit. It's not going to win anybody over and neither is it particularly informative as to the political mechanisms inherit to this viewpoint ... said differently, it has no political aspiration, whether consciously or not, beyond spewing forth basic sentences of non-information. In this context, they might as well have been yelling "I love food! Mostly organic!" - it has a political content, but doesn't actually say anything and only appeals to people with the same political sentiment, anyone else can just shrug and ignore.
sometimes things are traditional because people like it that way.
are you saying that every message has the same connotation as the other? food is on par with racial hate?
I remember this band from the 90s as the first I ever heard of who really did admit to genuine right-wing ideology - years before eg Brethren. I also remember being startled at this and thinking 'hmmm, changing times'.
Not my kinda music (or politics!) but respect is due for having the balls to put this out.
Quote from: RCB on June 20, 2011, 10:51:36 PM
sometimes things are traditional because people like it that way.
And peace be with that. People are in their right to think so.
I'm in no way talking about Control Resistance's artistic merit - I can find it quite enjoyable, just as I can with several other fairly "traditionalist" acts. Enjoyment doesn't mean it has to speak to me on some profound level.
Quote from: RCB on June 20, 2011, 10:51:36 PM
are you saying that every message has the same connotation as the other? food is on par with racial hate?
I'm not talking about connotation at all, at any point, in what I wrote above. I'm not talking about the values displayed in the content being the same or on the same level (organic food = racial hatred), I'm talking about how the
political aspirational value of either statement, in the form it's displayed, bears the same fairly useless and unambitious marks. This is taking it away from the idea being stated (no matter how bland) and merely analyzing it based it's general political value, besides obvious soap-box yelling.
I myself am thoroughly impressed with your presence and status here at Special Interests as the self appointed intellectual elite. You claim on one hand NOT to be offended by the views expressed and turn right around and contradict yourself by referring to the content of the video as rhetoric? Not very good at masking your own rhetoric and exposing your true intentions. The recording simply and effectively expresses a vile yet almost completely censored truth in the world today in a video that is clearly unmatched in this miniscule genre of P.E. and you assign yourself the authority to critique it. What exactly are YOUR credentials? You refer to the political content as "used to death" as if there is some undiscovered pathway to effectively change the opinion of the brain dead masses through Power Electronics. The video in question is hardly a campaign advertisement for the presidency of the United States. I'm sure according to your insight the intent of the creator was to magically change the world perspective on Jewry with a video that targets an almost microscopic portion of the human population. As we all well know Power Electronics is likely to be the next big pop culture sensation. You also give us another clear glimpse into your own profound intellectual depth and wisdom by referring to the message as horrible lyrics??? I certainly don't consider Control Resistance music and hardly consider the words and message to be lyrics. If you are looking for "inspired" lyrical content you might try listening to "Stairway to Heaven" again or in your case maybe some Bob "Dylan" (Robert Zimmerman). With a link in your comment to such useless and degenerate drivel such as "Alleypisser" you must be one of two things- a talentless and frustrated enthusiast or simply another slithering Jewish troll attempting to defend your sick and filthy tribe of parasites?
Quote from: nidding on June 20, 2011, 07:43:15 PM
Quote from: RCB on June 20, 2011, 06:36:22 PMseems pretty trad to sing and write in that style. you dont have to say pleeeeaaaasssee
Exactly. It's perhaps a bit too traditional. Seems a tad easy to just use the same old, used-to-death rhetoric. Tradition is no excuse to just go through the motions.yone else can just shrug and ignore.
what do you mean by tradition and traditional in this extent?
Not my kinda music (or politics!) but respect is due for having the balls to put this out. [/quote]
Not your kind of politics because your politics are Political Correctness, Indoctrination and Mind Control. Your politics are not your own they are given to you by your television. You might as well be buying them in a can at the grocery store. The information expressed in the video is not a matter of opinion, nor is it politics- it is the TRUTH.
ALLOW NO CRITICISM OR CRITICAL LISTENING.
Don't take it too personally Shill, they're just giving their opinions.
Maybe Control Resistance can reunite and go on tour with Barzel. It wouldn't quite be "Ebony and Ivory," but more like Swarthy and Ivory...
Coming to the web soon - Who Makes The Jews?
I must say that I agree with Nidding for the most part.
And I think that by traditional he was meant to say standard (for a "right wing" project, of course). In fact, the lyrics (yeah, LYRICS) on this song (yeah, SONG) are far away from being thoughtful. It´s just like hearing a punk band scream "fuck the system" or a metal band singing "worship satan": it´s way too simplistic and naive.
Despite that, the music is really nice.
IR has already re-released the "Nihilist Assaultcore" album that this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGTmWEAcOdY&NR=1) Control Resistance track comes from. It's more nicely lo-fidelity than "Declaration", although I'm curious to know/hear how much re-mixing went on the tracks for this new anthology. To my ears, "Deprogram-Reprogram" has a nicer, more sinister feel to it than "Declaration". This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV_06CKn8YY), on the other hand, seems a bit too digital-sounding and crisp, for mine - I assume this is an example of the "industrial-metal" Mikko warned about. It sounds well constructed but too pretty.
It's horses for courses but going by these few examples I'm assuming it's going to be a patchy release - probably unavoidable since it's a collection of disparate pieces, presumably over a period of years. Perhaps another reason why the project has been forgotten by many?
Does anyone know what they were like live?
Quote from: ShillKill on July 04, 2011, 07:29:38 PM
I myself am thoroughly impressed with your presence and status here at Special Interests as the self appointed intellectual elite. You claim on one hand NOT to be offended by the views expressed and turn right around and contradict yourself by referring to the content of the video as rhetoric? Not very good at masking your own rhetoric and exposing your true intentions. The recording simply and effectively expresses a vile yet almost completely censored truth in the world today in a video that is clearly unmatched in this miniscule genre of P.E. and you assign yourself the authority to critique it. What exactly are YOUR credentials? You refer to the political content as "used to death" as if there is some undiscovered pathway to effectively change the opinion of the brain dead masses through Power Electronics. The video in question is hardly a campaign advertisement for the presidency of the United States. I'm sure according to your insight the intent of the creator was to magically change the world perspective on Jewry with a video that targets an almost microscopic portion of the human population. As we all well know Power Electronics is likely to be the next big pop culture sensation. You also give us another clear glimpse into your own profound intellectual depth and wisdom by referring to the message as horrible lyrics??? I certainly don't consider Control Resistance music and hardly consider the words and message to be lyrics. If you are looking for "inspired" lyrical content you might try listening to "Stairway to Heaven" again or in your case maybe some Bob "Dylan" (Robert Zimmerman). With a link in your comment to such useless and degenerate drivel such as "Alleypisser" you must be one of two things- a talentless and frustrated enthusiast or simply another slithering Jewish troll attempting to defend your sick and filthy tribe of parasites?
Please take your premature FMP trolling elsewere, this is not that kinda forum
Joined July 02, these are the only two posts so far, no email or other contact...
Perhaps the rant to defend band isn't really necessary, but I think this is actually pretty good line:
Quote from: ShillKill on July 04, 2011, 07:29:38 PM
I certainly don't consider Control Resistance music and hardly consider the words and message to be lyrics.
It is often seen when bands are attempted to value outside their context. Like "they are not very good musicians", "lyrics are really cliche" or such. Yet the aim of band was never to offer musical experience to be compared with groovy rock'n'roll or noble prize worthy lyrics. Control Resistance clearly presents like industrial version of wp rock'n'roll. If you put dozens of greatest wp rock bands in line, they are in absolutely another league than most of musical entertainment offered by regular rock bands.
It's like comparing fistfight and ballet. You can't expect the noble elegance, when you'll be only served brutal assault. It will be the same old fist it always was, resulting the same old nosebleed there always was. It ain't art, yet someone always tries to measure by such standards. Some people just like fistfights, others dancing. Some can handle both.
The issue here is the same issue that PE always faces; how it is perceived as opposed to what it's intentions are. Any opinion is valid, and that applies to ballets as much as fist-fights when one is in the comfortable place of spectator. Which is why starting fights over who's opinion is more valid is not merely unnecessary, but in this case, outright trolling.
Of course, but one could say it about anything, not just PE? As I mentioned, that rant to defend band wasn't necessary (when even the harshest critic says he likes the stuff!), but the line selected from it was in my opinion good. Why:
I do agree everybody can have opinion, yet I would think it would underline validity of opinions, if opinions are informed even when being mere spectator?
There is very common idea that everybody has right to opinion, which is fine yet:
Quoteopinion is a subjective belief, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. An opinion may be supported by an argument, although people may draw opposing opinions from the same set of facts. Opinions rarely change without new arguments being presented. However, it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analysing the supporting arguments.
That's what I believe would be called discussion, what happens in discussion forums.
Supported by facts or supported by arguments perhaps being for example what are the artists intentions. And I guess the given quote nailed it quite well. What it aimed for and what it delivers. Of course one can choose to ignore this, and value it only based on what level I am personally entertained at this moment. Set the material on same line with whatever piece of art or entertainment, since it's your time you're spending. These opinions in such cases tell about the listener/spectator than the art in question?
I could mention for example being highly critical towards some noise bands, for farting out worthless albums in constant stream. And eventually description of "audio diary" is mentioned. It is revealed that it was never point to make albums. It was never intent to be something new and amazing. To differ from previous or say something specific. Just someones more or less private audio diary, which you choose to listen. How critical can I be towards artists who is best in what he does, and succeeds greatly with his intentions? Is it wise to expect album worthy masterpiece, then get some random jam and be disappointed? His noise, is the diary. It's not rehearsed noble ballets or sweaty savage fistfights. After being revealed intentions or motivations behind work, it can be easy task to see value beyond just own entertainment needs. Up to debate, of course!
I am simply pointing out that the criticism in question is nothing more than a MASQUERADE and rather than remain silent while this person deceives the majority of readers I choose to point out the fact that I PERSONALLY am not fooled. The rest of you can discuss and define the guidelines of criticism and debate like a room full of criminal lawyers for another two weeks for all I care. Remaining silent and allowing everyone to be deceived by liars is practically the whole point of the video in question.
Sorry, no one is being "deceived". We all listened to the same track that the previous poster has commented on. There's no "wool" to be pulled over, just commenting on some PE. Please don't take yourself too seriously.
Regardless of Zionist Occupation of our little board, I'll be getting this CD. Never heard of band until this thread, but all tracks posted have been very to my liking. THROBBING synth works especially.
Isn't there any place free of truth-keepers in this world anymore?
"If you don´t agree with me, you are obviously one of them", pfff...
As simple as that:there is a few projects dealing with the same subjects that succeeds on being intriguing and thought-provoking, but C.R. fails on that field, imho. Good music, cliché slogans/lyrics.
Ok, so maybe I am more of a dance guy than a fistfight guy, heh!
=P
That being said. Nidding might be the most aryan guy I know, heh
Quote from: UGRA on July 08, 2011, 01:47:33 AM
Isn't there any place free of truth-keepers in this world anymore?
"If you don´t agree with me, you are obviously one of them", pfff...
Its the easiest Way to declare the Right Wing Ideologic to be true Idiotic to have one or Two such Statement Trolls in the Area. For sure most People who hear/read this "You are Brainwashed, You cannot Think Yourself, I'm/We are Only one who are Genius to see Behind all Matters ect ect" will laught a little bit, thinking of some Sexy Gay Neuschwabenland Ufo Soldiers and walk away.
Quote from: ShillKill on July 04, 2011, 07:29:38 PM
I myself am thoroughly impressed with your presence and status here at Special Interests as the self appointed intellectual elite. You claim on one hand NOT to be offended by the views expressed and turn right around and contradict yourself by referring to the content of the video as rhetoric? Not very good at masking your own rhetoric and exposing your true intentions. The recording simply and effectively expresses a vile yet almost completely censored truth in the world today in a video that is clearly unmatched in this miniscule genre of P.E. and you assign yourself the authority to critique it. What exactly are YOUR credentials? You refer to the political content as "used to death" as if there is some undiscovered pathway to effectively change the opinion of the brain dead masses through Power Electronics. The video in question is hardly a campaign advertisement for the presidency of the United States. I'm sure according to your insight the intent of the creator was to magically change the world perspective on Jewry with a video that targets an almost microscopic portion of the human population. As we all well know Power Electronics is likely to be the next big pop culture sensation. You also give us another clear glimpse into your own profound intellectual depth and wisdom by referring to the message as horrible lyrics??? I certainly don't consider Control Resistance music and hardly consider the words and message to be lyrics. If you are looking for "inspired" lyrical content you might try listening to "Stairway to Heaven" again or in your case maybe some Bob "Dylan" (Robert Zimmerman). With a link in your comment to such useless and degenerate drivel such as "Alleypisser" you must be one of two things- a talentless and frustrated enthusiast or simply another slithering Jewish troll attempting to defend your sick and filthy tribe of parasites?
I don't think you're really picking up on the point here. I'm not trying to decipher the intent of the artist (how the fuck could I?), and in this case I actually find it fairly unimportant - in the critique of a piece of work (whether art, political speech, music etc) there's no immediate need to actually include the creator at all, the piece and the opinions uttered therein can easily be criticized in their own right. This is what I'm doing.
My critique of this track is based exactly on the fact that it doesn't have any political merit - it's exactly
not going to win anybody over, it's not even going to challenge anybody. In my opinion, and seemingly others, it's simply another case of uninformative, unambitious preaching (to the choir). Even though PE is not a mainstream genre (it probably has the same degree of mainstream appeal as crude, lo-fi hardcore punk) it doesn't mean it cannot have a certain level on political ambition. There's several examples of PE and Industrial artists and groups with political aspirations that still manage to communicate this in an intelligent, ambitious manner - they manage to actually challenge people of both the same but also different political views, which is something I find most admirable. To say this is the case for Control Resistance would be a shame.
Quote from: ShillKill on July 05, 2011, 08:25:01 PM
Not your kind of politics because your politics are Political Correctness, Indoctrination and Mind Control. Your politics are not your own they are given to you by your television. You might as well be buying them in a can at the grocery store. The information expressed in the video is not a matter of opinion, nor is it politics- it is the TRUTH.
Okay, so in your opinion everybody is right-wing, hateful people by nature?
And right-wing governments aren't just as notorious as any other for their use of indoctrination, censorship and mind control?
Left, right, middle government/fanatic/propagator/preacher/artist/warrior/politician/whatever - doesn't matter what you call yourself, it doesn't free you from the chains of being a fucking idiot.
Quote from: ShillKill on July 07, 2011, 07:16:17 PM
I am simply pointing out that the criticism in question is nothing more than a MASQUERADE and rather than remain silent while this person deceives the majority of readers I choose to point out the fact that I PERSONALLY am not fooled. The rest of you can discuss and define the guidelines of criticism and debate like a room full of criminal lawyers for another two weeks for all I care. Remaining silent and allowing everyone to be deceived by liars is practically the whole point of the video in question.
Shit. Why am I even trying.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 07, 2011, 09:39:48 AM
Supported by facts or supported by arguments perhaps being for example what are the artists intentions. And I guess the given quote nailed it quite well. What it aimed for and what it delivers. Of course one can choose to ignore this, and value it only based on what level I am personally entertained at this moment. Set the material on same line with whatever piece of art or entertainment, since it's your time you're spending. These opinions in such cases tell about the listener/spectator than the art in question?
But is the intention of the artist always integral to a critique of his/her material? Can't a piece be criticized based only on what it actually says and in this case how well it says it?
And even if this is merely the intention to present a barrage of hateful vocal assaults, then (correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't the point of WP/RAC rock also to challenge an established order and/or provoke? I cannot see how this Control Resistance track succeeds on either account - the rhetoric is so simplistic and overused that opponents will simply dismiss it as "another bonehead rant" and the sympathizers will simply see it as "another brother-in-arms". It doesn't challenge, provoke, incite or inspire.
My opinion, of course.
QuoteBut is the intention of the artist always integral to a critique of his/her material? Can't a piece be criticized based only on what it actually says and in this case how well it says it?
Everyone can Critics Enverything, but there must be a "Point" of Critism in it, to take it serious. And how should a Critism Point works, when it failed in its own Argument from the start on?
Easy Example: If someone critism that a Release is on CD'r instead of CD and the Musician loves CD'r and exactly want it on CD'r, the Critic Argument itself is then nothing more than a Personal View and it fails as real serious Critic Point, since it is so as it should be.
Quotebut isn't the point of WP/RAC rock also to challenge an established order and/or provoke?
Is it? Why should it be so? Why should White Power Music reduce itself on Provocation and Agressive Forces in Music? WP Music has also Ballads, Love Songs, Fun Songs, Drink Songs and all kind of other Bullshit, not even only "Hate Songs for Aryan People"....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxnm6tlUWF4
Quotethe rhetoric is so simplistic and overused that opponents will simply dismiss it as "another bonehead rant"
Opponents always looks for Points to dismiss, so nobody must care about it. Otherwise, are you sure that the Music is for opponents/followers of this Political Movement at once?
And the Argument about "Overused" is really lame. Using Musical Instruments is totaly Overused, using Computers is also Overused, but to be true, i don't like A Cappela Music so much, that All Music should not be "Overused" to be "true".
And where stands that always all must be innovative and new?
@ Nidding.
Ahhh hilarious, this forum was definitely good for a few laughs I must say. Anyone who has taken the time to do their research is very well aware of the Jewish domination of media, government, finance and education and it's disastrous consequences for the entire world regardless of their ethnicity. This is not a matter of opinion, it is fact, and even openly admitted by many powerful and influential Jews themselves. Opponents or sheeple that "attempt" to challenge this fact are not objective thinkers or even capable of determining truth from fiction. People like you will never be challenged or awakened by truth, fact, statistics, official government documents, thought provoking books/videos or anything else for that matter. Your argument that the message is overused and could have been delivered more effectively is absurd. There have been countless books, songs and movies covering the subject of love or heartbreak with full attention given to them by the mainstream media yet no one is complaining. Here you have one single video dealing with a subject that is of the utmost importance to the condition and future of the entire world and you say it has all been done before so many times and so much more effectively. You refer to the content of the video as non-information??? That is almost laughable- the video makes several references to books that are packed with documentation and information on the very same subject. I would love to hear just a few of your examples regarding these profound thought provoking recordings or better yet videos for that matter. That is not only completely false but a bald faced lie and a blatantly obvious attempt to distract people from the message in the video. Had you simply been honest from the the beginning and admitted that you oppose the views expressed in the video and were offended this thread would never have even started nor gone this far. In conclusion, I believe that the creator of the video WAS preaching to the choir simply because people who genuinely understand modern day politics and the current situation in the world are fully aware that the only thing that moves the wheels of history is the blood of revolution not debating clever computer geeks on message boards.
"The Jews own the world, the Catholics run it, the Protestants work it, and the niggers and the Mexicans basically enjoy it."
-- Kinky Friedman
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/-D1lJNR88exY/R4peDhMPL8I/AAAAAAAABpQ/8GsCy9H3m-c/Kinky%252520Friedman.jpg)
Quote from: Goat93 on July 08, 2011, 04:49:15 PM
Everyone can Critics Enverything, but there must be a "Point" of Critism in it, to take it serious. And how should a Critism Point works, when it failed in its own Argument from the start on?
Easy Example: If someone critism that a Release is on CD'r instead of CD and the Musician loves CD'r and exactly want it on CD'r, the Critic Argument itself is then nothing more than a Personal View and it fails as real serious Critic Point, since it is so as it should be.
Yeah, you're right about this to a certain degree. Sure, if you're criticizing a piece of artwork counting in the artist's intention can clarify certain points - or obscure them. This doesn't mean that the argument is in any way flawed though - you can still criticize an argument or an artwork solely based on it's merits as an argument or a piece of art, seen completely separate from the artist who created it. There is no rule as to how you're supposed to see a piece and to be quite frank, I'd say that the strength of any given piece lies in whether it can stand by itself or not. An artwork accompanied by 10 A4 pages of explanation just to make it the least bit interesting isn't much of artwork to begin with, is it?
You could also say: A politician making a speech that's fairly devoid of any substantial political content or information, but merely appeals to people's pathos (a completely populist speech). Should this speech then be interpreted based on an assumption of the politician's intention is to obtain power, be elected, etc etc, or should this speech be analyzed and criticized based on the political content of just the speech? Shouldn't you respect people enough to take what they say at face value? ... to take this a bit further, if you keep focus on the person behind the statement all the time, then all kinds of superfluous shit can start to factor into the judgment of the artwork/argument/statement.
The biographical approach to analysis is not the end-all of all analytical methods and can really lead to obscuring the points that are being made more than actually clarifying them.
QuoteIs it? Why should it be so? Why should White Power Music reduce itself on Provocation and Agressive Forces in Music? WP Music has also Ballads, Love Songs, Fun Songs, Drink Songs and all kind of other Bullshit, not even only "Hate Songs for Aryan People"....
Fair enough - then I learned something new. I've only been exposed to the "hate songs" part of it. Besides "challenging the established order" is not exactly a reduction, rather that's pretty admirable quality, I'd say, when it actually succeeds.
Also in this context, I guess it doesn't actually matter that WP music has ballads, love songs etc, since the reason it was brought up in the first place, was to prove that the point/intention for Control Resistance was the same as hateful, aggressive WP music. Whereas the "bonehead quality" comes into play as a legitimizing factor in the context of CR's lyrics and rhetoric being less that inspirational.
QuoteOpponents always looks for Points to dismiss, so nobody must care about it. Otherwise, are you sure that the Music is for opponents/followers of this Political Movement at once?
No, and I'm not saying that it has to. I'm merely saying that it would be the most ambitious and politically valuable standpoint (a lack of which I'm criticizing the track for). Also I'm actually saying that this music has little to contribute to neither opponents nor followers.
QuoteAnd the Argument about "Overused" is really lame. Using Musical Instruments is totaly Overused, using Computers is also Overused, but to be true, i don't like A Cappela Music so much, that All Music should not be "Overused" to be "true".
And where stands that always all must be innovative and new?
One thing is talking about music, another thing is talking about political rhetoric. But to translate the politics/rhetoric into music, sure remedies can be completely overused, which is the case here, and unless these remedies get used in an intelligent and innovative manner then the music (and in this case politics/rhetoric) becomes redundant, dull and a case of just going-through-the-motions = my original point exactly.
Quote from: ShillKill on July 08, 2011, 08:37:32 PM
Anyone who has taken the time to do their research is very well aware of the Jewish domination of media, government, finance and education and it's disastrous consequences for the entire world regardless of their ethnicity. This is not a matter of opinion, it is fact, and even openly admitted by many powerful and influential Jews themselves.
I'm sorry to bring it to you, but you do not have the truth of the world in your hands.
Yes, obviously this is actually a matter of opinion, since there's not a single unanimous opinion on the fact. Actually is changes all the time depending on which political analyst or theorist you read. Yes, there's Jews in the media, government, finance etc, whether it's disastrous or what it's consequences are, aren't determined at all.
QuotePeople like you will never be challenged or awakened by truth, fact, statistics, official government documents, thought provoking books/videos or anything else for that matter.
Challenged? Sure. "Awakened"? Come on. For every single "fact", thought provoking book/video, document etc that says one thing, there's 10 saying something else. So who's to say who's right? You?
QuoteYour argument that the message is overused and could have been delivered more effectively is absurd. [...] Here you have one single video dealing with a subject that is of the utmost importance to the condition and future of the entire world and you say it has all been done before so many times and so much more effectively.
I don't say that the video has been done countless times, I say that the rhetoric has become a staple of boring, uninspired right wing speech. It's not saying anything that hasn't been said so many times before, and also has been said in a way more articulate, thought provoking manner before. This track is just too easy.
QuoteYou refer to the content of the video as non-information??? That is almost laughable- the video makes several references to books that are packed with documentation and information on the very same subject.
I don't see any of these references in their lyrics. What I see here is the usual case of "Jews are evil and will be the downfall of us all", "destroy the Jews" etc etc. What new information is it bringing to the table? Is it informing us of any intelligent political points apart from saying "I don't like Jews"?
See my previous posts.
QuoteI would love to hear just a few of your examples regarding these profound thought provoking recordings or better yet videos for that matter.
Fuck, man, in a PE context, even Brethren is more thought provoking than this stuff. At least he's being intelligent about his criticism and actually bringing some compelling information to the table.
QuoteHad you simply been honest from the the beginning and admitted that you oppose the views expressed in the video and were offended this thread would never have even started nor gone this far.
I'm not offended the slightest bit, actually I find this to be a perfect chance to discuss a lot of interesting points. I've never said anything about not being opposed to the views expressed, actually quite on the contrary, already in my second post I said that I oppose political acts and political content with no particular political value. I don't give much of a shit what political standpoint you have, if you're being an idiot about it, then I oppose you. All of this is unimportant in this case though, as I'm not debating his political views, but rather the political value (usability) of his statements.
QuoteIn conclusion, I believe that the creator of the video WAS preaching to the choir simply because people who genuinely understand modern day politics and the current situation in the world are fully aware that the only thing that moves the wheels of history is the blood of revolution not debating clever computer geeks on message boards.
So this is actually just preaching to the choir? Well, that proves my point then - as I said originally, I don't care about the politics behind it, I care that the argument/rhetoric/political value is so washed out. It's uninspired, unambitious drivel = just preaching to the choir and not trying to inform or challenge others with your agenda.
Quote from: Goat93 on July 08, 2011, 04:49:15 PM
Everyone can Critics Enverything, but there must be a "Point" of Critism in it, to take it serious. And how should a Critism Point works, when it failed in its own Argument from the start on?
Easy Example: If someone critism that a Release is on CD'r instead of CD and the Musician loves CD'r and exactly want it on CD'r, the Critic Argument itself is then nothing more than a Personal View and it fails as real serious Critic Point, since it is so as it should be.
Hey, c´mon! So the fact that someone deliberatedly choose mediocrity gives him the right not to be judged or criticised? Couldn´t that be a good excuse to make every single stupid thing on this world acceptable?
I mean, if I start a project with no artistic value, bad ideas for the songs and a bunch of old slogans for the lyrics, all I have to do is to declare "THAT WAS MY INTENTION!" and I will be above any kind of criticism?
Sorry, it doesn´t make any sense!
Quote from: nidding on July 09, 2011, 12:20:39 AM
Fuck, man, in a PE context, even Brethren is more thought provoking than this stuff. At least he's being intelligent about his criticism and actually bringing some compelling information to the table.
I'd like to know how his lyrics are any more informative/thought provoking/intelligent than the song in question. all sounds like the same "i control my life not someone else" message to me. perhaps you are taking things at face value?
I'm (a very small part) Jewish -- so I guess I'm in luck? So, where do I go to get my share of all this sinister kike influence, power and wealth???
I believe a commonly held assertion is that "propaganda" is primarily meant for, and aimed at those who are already prone to, or possess a sociopolitical world view that is in line with the propaganda offered. I.e., "preaching to the choir." To the "outsider"/demographic the propaganda isn't aimed towards, of course the material will seem utterly jingoistic, ridiculous, and ineffective. Nevertheless, the propaganda is supposedly effective in reenforcing the pre-existing convictions, and perhaps opinions of those "on the fence", in the target audience. So maybe in that regard, Control Resistance's music and videos can be deemed effective and successful. However, within the purview of a broader and/or more general critique of sociopolitically charged power electronics, to many CR will just come across as simplistic, tired, and ineffective MUSIC/ART.
Personally, as with the newest Genocide Organ video recently posted and discussed here, I find the CR clip is seriously undermined -- entirely negated -- by being far too "slick" in its editing style, and by blatantly appropriating so many easily recognizable video "samples." I mean, come on -- an Apple computer commercial from the 80s? Snippets from the Michael Radford version of "1984"? And so many of the video transition and filtering effects, and text animation effects are so very indicative of overkill by amateur/inexperienced video editors enamored of their new editing software -- regardless of whether the styles are "appropriate" for, or beneficial to the message(s) presumably intended for the video.
But of course, I assume I'm not the target audience of this music or imagery, and I've got that slight trace of jew blood making me bias, so what do I know...?
Quote from: Litharge on July 09, 2011, 10:35:14 AM
I'm (a very small part) Jewish -- so I guess I'm in luck? So, where do I go to get my share of all this sinister kike influence, power and wealth???
Remember this joke? Two rabbis in Germany just before the war are reading newspapers. One is reading a fairly liberal rag and the other is reading Die Sturmer. The one reading the liberal paper is astonished and asks the other rabbi how he could possibly read such a thing, and why doesn't he spend his money and time reading the more liberal paper.
"Are you kidding?", the man replies. "Every time I read that I read about how we Jews are being persecuted, getting kicked out of jobs, getting our shops attacked, getting our kids kicked out of schools. It's depressing. But whenever I read Die Sturmer, I read about how we rule and run the world and how wealthy and powerful we are! I love it!"
Quote from: nidding on July 09, 2011, 12:20:39 AMSo this is actually just preaching to the choir? Well, that proves my point then - as I said originally, I don't care about the politics behind it, I care that the argument/rhetoric/political value is so washed out. It's uninspired, unambitious drivel = just preaching to the choir and not trying to inform or challenge others with your agenda.
I don't personally think music/noise should have the same value as for example daily politics. Can you judge record not being good enough, since it offers just few slogans, not book worth of text? Would you like to listen someones preaching for few hours on top of noise? I would assume, people who make the stuff, approach it from perspective what is doable and useful to have song made to their liking?
For reason or another, big part of the art has been seen as "leftist". It's no different within noise or industrial music either, I think? If you have band with some content, it will be "preaching to the choir", since isn't it just about one main roles of music in general? But also sign of alternative within subject matter and approach.
In upcoming issue of Special Interests, there will be interview with Ke/Hil, where is discussed the song of their album called "Mirror of the world of mirrors". When I saw the title of song, immediately it brought in my mind music, art and noise. Everybody is so busy just saying "I just reflect this world, people can make up their opinions" or something similar. Bands with the roughest topics and provocative lyrics, quickly make excuse of not meaning what they said, just "reflecting the reality", "reflecting the society", "observing the history" and so on. And being mirror of the world of mirrors, one could simply reflect this poor state of nothing being said by anyone, since then your own ass will be on the line with no possibility to hide behind "not really meaning it".
So, in that context, I salute bands such as Control Resistance or Brethren and from the left, bands like Militia or such, who don't just "reflect". They tell you loud and clear their own opinion about this particular subject matter based on their own political convictions. In times when nobody wants responsibility and nobody wants to be "outcasted" from little success there could be in "noise/industrial", these bands just say what they say and don't apologize. With all the bands that say nothing, it is most of all HEALTHY than someone just says it. No matter how little artistic or political merit the actual opinion has. In case when band does express their actual view, no matter how trite, how lame it might be, it's still MORE than a lot of other non-substance pasted over noise.*
*Edit: of course meaning pretentious substance. The assume lack of substance I think its in ear/eye of beholder. A lot of plain noise says a lot, without words.
"Art is not a mirror held up to reality, but a hammer with which to shape it." - Brecht. Personally, though, I'm not convinced. And I've never been convinced that any point of view is preferable to no point of view. That, in itself, is a point of view.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on July 09, 2011, 11:05:19 AMRemember this joke?
Heh, I've never heard that joke. But it brings to mind:
A pedophile, a drunk, and a Catholic priest walk into a bar. He orders a drink...
Anyway, I have no more in common with, nor "suffer" any more at the hands of jews than "WASPs", in a society where I just don't fit. So personally, I don't let myself get distracted and sidetracked by some self-delusion that if only all the jews were dead my life would suddenly become so much better. If the jews are removed from the global equation some other "conspiratorial" group would undoubtedly just move in to take their supposed positions of power and general suppression/exploitation, so I'd come out no better. But of course, that's just my programming, conditioning, and jew-washed brain speaking...
Quote from: Litharge on July 09, 2011, 11:36:01 AM
A pedophile, a drunk, and a Catholic priest walk into a bar. He orders a drink...
Thanks for that! I must use that one, one day.
nidding
QuoteThere is no rule as to how you're supposed to see a piece and to be quite frank, I'd say that the strength of any given piece lies in whether it can stand by itself or not. An artwork accompanied by 10 A4 pages of explanation just to make it the least bit interesting isn't much of artwork to begin with, is it?
I think thats two different Things. To Criticsm something or to look at a Artwork has not really a Common Point in my eyes. Or better said, here you see better hows different between "own Personal Views" and Critism what should work over your Personal Views. I differ between Personal Views and Common Critism, since in Political Discussions the own View is irrelevant. If you Critisice a "Political" Work like this Music, its totaly OK if you say, that you dont like it or that its ooverused or that has no effect on You. But thats an other Theme than your say "The Politival Working don't work, since it must be challenging the Government" or anything like that. First one is YOUR Opinion about it, other is a Message about the Political (or Ideological) Matter.
And here it is very Important to look behind the whole.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h1KD1N_G08
This is a Political Speech of Walter Ubricht, since before the Building of the Wall in Germany. he says "Nobody have the Intention to buld a Wall". Very Famous Speech btw.
If you only look at the Speech and NOT to that, whats behind, the Speech is normal and not really important. Only the Fact, where he is, why he said that and whats happend afterwards makes it Important at all. So i think it IS Important to look after the Intention of the Artist, Speecher or whoever to Interpret his Intention to Critism him. Otherwise the Critism is Meaningless or maybe just Personal.
QuoteWhereas the "bonehead quality" comes into play as a legitimizing factor in the context of CR's lyrics and rhetoric being less that inspirational.
Whats a Bonehead Quality?
The Video i linked is from this Bonehead Scene and other Folk Musicicians like Frank Rennicke are there as well. There is no "W hate all 24/7" Music Scene in the WP Movement. For example the Singer one of the Biggest WP/RAC Music Group (Stahlgewitter) have had played in a Metal/Fun Band before and this Band went into Right Winged Music really fast. As Right Winged Metal/RAC Music Group they have songs about:
(http://www.schleswig-holstein-urlaub.de/uploads/pics/krabbenpulen.jpg)
QuoteBut to translate the politics/rhetoric into music, sure remedies can be completely overused, which is the case here, and unless these remedies get used in an intelligent and innovative manner then the music (and in this case politics/rhetoric) becomes redundant, dull and a case of just going-through-the-motions = my original point exactly.
Yeah, but nothing more than a Personal View. Most ( Ideolocal )Music works about repeating. See in Chart Music at its best. So, on one Side you have Innovative and Intelligence Music, but to be true there won't be much people to reach with it. Otherwise you have Overused and Simple Music with Simple Lyrical Structure and thats the Point where you reach People. So, if someone want th reach much people, he have to use Simple Music. Thats a Fact. Otherwise since it is a P:e Act, i don't think, that the Artist really want to reach many People with it as a Political Doctrine. For that the Music is not Rythmic and Easy enought. Here is again important to check up the Intention of the Artist. Your Critism Points may be Aspects what the Artist actually himself want instead of avoid.
As Example, how much people would listen to John Zorn instead of Lady Gaga?
UGRA
As i said, everyone can Criticsm Everything. But ask yourself, for what is Critism and what is it about? How works it and what changed it?
Example:
You critism my Music as Booring and Idiotic. You critism the package and the Format. You write m a Message and spread it in some Foren. Its your Critic then.
But, what changed it? Does i really stop making Music after your critism? WOuld i change the Format, the Packageing, anything at all?
Thats what i mean about a "real Point" in your Argument. There must be something where your opponent looks about and think about it. Otherwise your Critic is useless and blurry. Ok, you feel better after that, i think.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 09, 2011, 11:18:08 AM
I don't personally think music/noise should have the same value as for example daily politics. Can you judge record not being good enough, since it offers just few slogans, not book worth of text? Would you like to listen someones preaching for few hours on top of noise? I would assume, people who make the stuff, approach it from perspective what is doable and useful to have song made to their liking?
Musically I don't think you can criticize it based on the political or lyrical content (
it can still be a great record musically), you can however criticize exactly those facets of the record. If you have a strongly political project with an obviously strong political agenda, then this should also be held up to a certain standard, in my opinion. If it's not held up to some standard and actually lives up to a certain level of political content, then it's not much better than just some kind of incessant yelling.
So no, the artforms of music/noise should not have the same value as for example daily politics, but if you introduce these elements of strong politics into your music/noise, then it should also be able to live up to having this content in it's mode of expression. But again, that's my opinion.
QuoteSo, in that context, I salute bands such as Control Resistance or Brethren and from the left, bands like Militia or such, who don't just "reflect". They tell you loud and clear their own opinion about this particular subject matter based on their own political convictions. In times when nobody wants responsibility and nobody wants to be "outcasted" from little success there could be in "noise/industrial", these bands just say what they say and don't apologize. With all the bands that say nothing, it is most of all HEALTHY than someone just says it. No matter how little artistic or political merit the actual opinion has. In case when band does express their actual view, no matter how trite, how lame it might be, it's still MORE than a lot of other non-substance pasted over noise.*
*Edit: of course meaning pretentious substance. The assume lack of substance I think its in ear/eye of beholder. A lot of plain noise says a lot, without words.
But the thing is: I'm
not criticizing their opinion or the fact that they're expressing it, I'm criticizing the manner in which they do it.
So actually I agree with you for a large part - I'm admire artists who express strong opinions. But if the manner in which they express them is contrived and uninteresting, then my admiration is not so great.
Quote from: Goat93 on July 09, 2011, 12:40:21 PM
I think thats two different Things. To Criticsm something or to look at a Artwork has not really a Common Point in my eyes. Or better said, here you see better hows different between "own Personal Views" and Critism what should work over your Personal Views. I differ between Personal Views and Common Critism, since in Political Discussions the own View is irrelevant. If you Critisice a "Political" Work like this Music, its totaly OK if you say, that you dont like it or that its ooverused or that has no effect on You. But thats an other Theme than your say "The Politival Working don't work, since it must be challenging the Government" or anything like that. First one is YOUR Opinion about it, other is a Message about the Political (or Ideological) Matter.
I really don't see how criticizing an artwork or something else is really that different? When you're criticizing something you always do this based on your own personal knowledge - and in this case, if you're actually agreeing with the rhetoric that CR are using, then you won't be criticizing it in the first place. Political discussion will always be subjective, albeit perhaps grounded in objective fact, but the value you apply to certain political content will always be subjective. Politics are subjectivity, there is no such thing as "objective politics".
Again, I'm not criticizing CR's political views as WP supremacists or whatever, I'm criticizing their way of expressing these views - and this critique is obviously subjective as I'm applying certain value to modes of expression, but I'm also analyzing it in a political context that is based on observation. I've never at any point said that I wasn't expressing my own views on the topic. So trying to undermine my argument based on the fact that it's based on my own subjective analysis of objective things, themes or facts is hardly a knock-down argument - my points still hold just as fine.
But let's not get into a discussion about subjectivity vs. objectivity - it's a philosophical discussion that'll take this too far off course and doesn't hold that much relevance to the discussion at hand.
QuoteThis is a Political Speech of Walter Ubricht, since before the Building of the Wall in Germany. he says "Nobody have the Intention to buld a Wall". Very Famous Speech btw.
If you only look at the Speech and NOT to that, whats behind, the Speech is normal and not really important. Only the Fact, where he is, why he said that and whats happend afterwards makes it Important at all. So i think it IS Important to look after the Intention of the Artist, Speecher or whoever to Interpret his Intention to Critism him. Otherwise the Critism is Meaningless or maybe just Personal.
As I also said earlier, then there is no one way to analyze or critique. In some instances looking at motivation and intention can be favorable and lead to clarification of things, other times it's perfectly fine to just analyze a given thing based on the thing itself.
In this case I can't look at the intention of the artist, as I'm expecting most, if not everyone else, on this messageboard can't either - because we don't know it. It's therefore pointless to try to speculate what the intention is - and seeing as this track can easily be analyzed and criticized based on just the content itself, and as my criticism is based on the way the views are expressed in the video, then the intention behind it is really not important.
QuoteWhats a Bonehead Quality?
The Video i linked is from this Bonehead Scene and other Folk Musicicians like Frank Rennicke are there as well. There is no "W hate all 24/7" Music Scene in the WP Movement. For example the Singer one of the Biggest WP/RAC Music Group (Stahlgewitter) have had played in a Metal/Fun Band before and this Band went into Right Winged Music really fast. As Right Winged Metal/RAC Music Group they have songs about:
The "bonehead quality" is here a quality that was applied to CR's rhetoric & track, to point out a line between it and the aggressive, crude side of WP rock. This was done to try to "legitimize" the rhetoric in the track and try to apply this WP rock attitude to the suspected intention of CR.
Again, since the focus was on the aggressive, crude side of WP rock and it's hateful expressions, then it's fairly irrelevant that there's WP bands that have songs about fun stuff like crabs.
Also, again, since I'm not trying to analyze the intention of CR, then this doesn't matter too much to me.
QuoteYeah, but nothing more than a Personal View. Most ( Ideolocal )Music works about repeating. See in Chart Music at its best. So, on one Side you have Innovative and Intelligence Music, but to be true there won't be much people to reach with it. Otherwise you have Overused and Simple Music with Simple Lyrical Structure and thats the Point where you reach People. So, if someone want th reach much people, he have to use Simple Music. Thats a Fact. Otherwise since it is a P:e Act, i don't think, that the Artist really want to reach many People with it as a Political Doctrine. For that the Music is not Rythmic and Easy enought. Here is again important to check up the Intention of the Artist. Your Critism Points may be Aspects what the Artist actually himself want instead of avoid.
As Example, how much people would listen to John Zorn instead of Lady Gaga?
There's a couple of objections here. First off, most of the chart music isn't strongly political in the sense that for example CR or a lot punk or whatever groups are, it should therefore also be analyzed on a different basis - the critique is based on the fact that this CR track is of political nature with a political agenda. And just because you're choosing to work within a niche genre, I think you should be careful to conclude that the artist or political statements aren't made to express something bigger and reach a bigger group of people.
Take Crass for example: they chose to work within a very niche (at the time) genre, yet had strongly political views and expressed and advocated for political change - they were strongly activist and made strong use of intelligent information and propaganda. Would it be fair to say that because they chose to play punk, then they weren't trying to change the political climate of the time and weren't trying to reach out and reach as wide an audience as possible for them?
Also intelligent and innovative isn't something that exclusive to fringe genres, it can easily be applied to chart and pop music. For example a lot of Lady Gaga's success, just to use your example, is exactly because she makes innovative use of pop music. She incorporates intelligent and provocative/challenging dynamics, structures and visuals into an otherwise fairly generic mold of music. She still creates danceable, mainstream-suitable music, but she does so with an edge that challenges the common listener and has an image that causes discussion (and gossiping, obviously) ... mission accomplished. So actually she's a pretty good example of my above point.
nidding:
To shorten it up a little bit, your View of Critism seems to be a Public sense and its not false at all. But for that the "Meanings like Assholes" works perfect. All is Emotional and Subjective. But if you want to make a Critic about the Doing and interpretation of this doing, you must have a Point in it. Otherwise i don't understand why you should make it anyway. You say they should be innovative and don't use Overused Ideas, but for what should this changes be? And here are we at the Point, where you must ask the Actor if he really intent to do as you want to do. And i think he doesn't at all.
Specially in Politic, Science,Religion and Culture it is really Important to put all Emotional and Subjective aside. You should build only on Facts and nothing else.
Quotegain, since the focus was on the aggressive, crude side of WP rock and it's hateful expressions, then it's fairly irrelevant that there's WP bands that have songs about fun stuff like crabs.
There were no "focus" you mentiont it as generally so as you wrote and this is false.
To Crass:
Would it be unfair to say, that they changed Punk in the Direction it takes afterward into Mainstream Music?
QuoteShe incorporates intelligent and provocative/challenging dynamics, structures and visuals into an otherwise fairly generic mold of music. She still creates danceable, mainstream-suitable music, but she does so with an edge that challenges the common listener and has an image that causes discussion (and gossiping, obviously) ... mission accomplished. So actually she's a pretty good example of my above point.
You think the Music of Lady Gaga is innovative. Wow. thats news of the Day to me. She creates a Show like thousands of other artists and is in the Mainstream Agenda, so it works. And of course she causes discussions, like thousands of others before and afterwards, since it brings Money. The Point is, she does nothing new, but she uses the old structures again for good. And there will be others who runs the same old train in the same old direction again. But its nice and interesting that you talk one side about Overused Structures and sais here that overused Image are Innovative. That shows, how good the Business works.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 09, 2011, 11:18:08 AM
So, in that context, I salute bands such as Control Resistance or Brethren and from the left, bands like Militia or such, who don't just "reflect". They tell you loud and clear their own opinion about this particular subject matter based on their own political convictions. In times when nobody wants responsibility and nobody wants to be "outcasted" from little success there could be in "noise/industrial", these bands just say what they say and don't apologize. With all the bands that say nothing, it is most of all HEALTHY than someone just says it. No matter how little artistic or political merit the actual opinion has. In case when band does express their actual view, no matter how trite, how lame it might be, it's still MORE than a lot of other non-substance pasted over noise.*
I agree 100% with you. Unfortunately we live in an age where having opinions (and stand up for them) is neither usual nor desirable. So, thumbs up for C.R. on that point.
Anyway, putting C.R. aside and talking a bit about the critics we read on this topic, most of the time the problem with highly ideological people is seeing the world on black and white.
I spent most of my teenage years in a hardcore/punk environment. Growing up, I started to loose interest on it mainly due to the paranoid behaviour of some of those guys. If you weren´t an anarchist - or, even worse, if you dare to criticise anarchism -, they would just assume you are a nazi or sympathizer. They see nazis everywhere: politicians, cops, media owners, writers, bands.
So I think that is pretty funny, in fact, to see that people on the other side (should I say the "right" side?) suffer from the same plague. They see jews and leftist propaganda everywhere (including politicians, cops, media owners, writers and bands). Just try to disagree from them, they will promptly shout that you are jew, or a red, a liberal pig, blahblahblah...
All in all, both - right and left - are two sides of the same coin. And History proves that both have failed miserably so far. But this is another topic...
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
@ Nidding
Any objective thinker will recognize your verbal strategies/techniques and hamster wheel debate tactics. I am not interested in breaking down every one of your comments and exposing the numerous inconsistencies. Waste of valuable time! Once again I would have left you alone had you just been honest from the beginning and admitted you were offended and opposed the views in the video. Instead you lied and tried to claim neutrality and then attacked the creator of the video. That's like saying you strongly oppose the extermination of Jews by gas chamber but if it's done in a new, innovative or creative way you're okay with it. According to your philosophical hippie bullshit nothing is right or wrong- it's all a matter of opinion. If I break into your house and bludgeon you to death and feed you your own dick- is that right or wrong, good or bad, or just simply a matter of opinion? For those interested in deciding who is right or wrong on the subject of just media ownership alone try reading the following link rather than listening to LIARS trying to intentionally mislead you. http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
"THOSE WHO STAND FOR NOTHING WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING"
Quote from: ShillKill on July 10, 2011, 06:16:20 AM
@ Nidding
Any objective thinker will recognize your verbal strategies/techniques and hamster wheel debate tactics. I am not interested in breaking down every one of your comments and exposing the numerous inconsistencies. Waste of valuable time! Once again I would have left you alone had you just been honest from the beginning and admitted you were offended and opposed the views in the video. Instead you lied and tried to claim neutrality and then attacked the creator of the video. That's like saying you strongly oppose the extermination of Jews by gas chamber but if it's done in a new, innovative or creative way you're okay with it. According to your philosophical hippie bullshit nothing is right or wrong- it's all a matter of opinion. If I break into your house and bludgeon you to death and feed you your own dick- is that right or wrong, good or bad, or just simply a matter of opinion? For those interested in deciding who is right or wrong on the subject of just media ownership alone try reading the following link rather than listening to LIARS trying to intentionally mislead you. http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
"THOSE WHO STAND FOR NOTHING WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING"
I consider myself a relatively "objective" thinker most of the time, and I have to say that in my "subjective" opinion, Nidding's posts have been interesting, intelligent, and well thought out. I don't see why it's apparently so difficult for you to accept that N. may well not be "offended" by the ideology of the Control Resistance video, yet be able to critique it's aesthetics and tactical merit from a dispassionate, "objective" perspective.
I'm not offended by the rhetoric of the song's lyrics and the video's imagery, yet as I've previously posted, I certainly find the simplicity and triteness of the song's lyrics and "philosophical" stance tiresome and laughable, and the style and content of the video seriously lacking. You seem doggedly invested in the notion that anyone criticizing or "objectively" analyzing the delivery of CR's message is a dishonest "ZOG" dupe, no matter how many times they try to spell it out to you that they're strictly commentating on the quality and potential effectiveness of the method of message delivery. For instance: I certainly don't agree with or subscribe to the majority of Crass's messages and sociopolitical positions, yet I can still appreciate their unique and intelligent musical delivery of those ideologies, and the apparent sincerity behind the music. Beyond that, if the CR video we've been discussing is an official one made by the band, or created by a third party, with the endorsement of CR, it hardly speaks well of "white supremacy" -- in the assessment of a viewer
outside the video's assumed target audience. Again -- CR's propaganda may very well be readily accepted by and encouraging to the intended demographic, and that's perhaps where Nidding's critique of the video comes up short; to the typical white power dumbass/P.E. aficionado the video may be perceived as fucking awesome and spot on, but to many viewers
outside the targeted audience the material will come across as lame, overly familiar, and cliche.
So, you actually believe that there is an objective, universal "right" and "wrong"? Upon what do you base this assertion? Who is the arbiter of right and wrong, "good" and "evil" in your world view/philosophy? God? The president/prime minister? Your next door neighbors?
"NOTHING IS FORBIDDEN, ALL IS PERMITTED."
Quote from: ShillKill on July 10, 2011, 06:16:20 AM
@ Nidding
Any objective thinker will recognize your verbal strategies/techniques and hamster wheel debate tactics. I am not interested in breaking down every one of your comments and exposing the numerous inconsistencies. Waste of valuable time! Once again I would have left you alone had you just been honest from the beginning and admitted you were offended and opposed the views in the video. Instead you lied and tried to claim neutrality and then attacked the creator of the video. That's like saying you strongly oppose the extermination of Jews by gas chamber but if it's done in a new, innovative or creative way you're okay with it. According to your philosophical hippie bullshit nothing is right or wrong- it's all a matter of opinion. If I break into your house and bludgeon you to death and feed you your own dick- is that right or wrong, good or bad, or just simply a matter of opinion? For those interested in deciding who is right or wrong on the subject of just media ownership alone try reading the following link rather than listening to LIARS trying to intentionally mislead you. http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
"THOSE WHO STAND FOR NOTHING WILL FALL FOR ANYTHING"
Discussion is obviously completely wasted on you.
QuoteI don't give much of a shit what political standpoint you have, if you're being an idiot about it, then I oppose you.
A good discussion has run it's course, once one of the discussers has started resorting to personal attack and insult - is that really the best comebacks? By now it seems your only resort, is to get upset about me not agreeing with you and start calling me "Jew-lackey". Is your case that weak?
I think our discussion is done.
Quote from: Goat93 on July 09, 2011, 05:25:28 PM
nidding:
To shorten it up a little bit, your View of Critism seems to be a Public sense and its not false at all. But for that the "Meanings like Assholes" works perfect. All is Emotional and Subjective. But if you want to make a Critic about the Doing and interpretation of this doing, you must have a Point in it. Otherwise i don't understand why you should make it anyway. You say they should be innovative and don't use Overused Ideas, but for what should this changes be? And here are we at the Point, where you must ask the Actor if he really intent to do as you want to do. And i think he doesn't at all.
Specially in Politic, Science,Religion and Culture it is really Important to put all Emotional and Subjective aside. You should build only on Facts and nothing else.
I don't understand what you mean here. I have an very consistent point to my argument and I also put up points as to what I'd see as preferable to what they are doing. So what is it my argument is lacking?
And actually it seems more often that not, the public tries to conceal their opinions as
objective, which is no matter what bullshit. Once you start to delineate any judgment call, political valuation or aesthetic decision it'll be apparent that it's subjective at it's core, even if it's based on objective facts. So of course there is such a thing as objectivity, but in a discussion of politics and aesthetics it's pretty impossible to stay in the objective scale - even your arguments are highly subjective and based on your preferences and ideas (just notice how many times you're making assumptions about intention and the like, for example).
QuoteThere were no "focus" you mentiont it as generally so as you wrote and this is false.
What's your point here? FreakAnimalFinland was the one who brought up WP rock and the crude, unmusical nature of it? So the original focus was, at least if I read FreakAnimalFinland correctly, on that side of WP rock.
QuoteTo Crass:
Would it be unfair to say, that they changed Punk in the Direction it takes afterward into Mainstream Music?
Yes. Sex Pistols.
Quote
You think the Music of Lady Gaga is innovative. Wow. thats news of the Day to me. She creates a Show like thousands of other artists and is in the Mainstream Agenda, so it works. And of course she causes discussions, like thousands of others before and afterwards, since it brings Money. The Point is, she does nothing new, but she uses the old structures again for good. And there will be others who runs the same old train in the same old direction again. But its nice and interesting that you talk one side about Overused Structures and sais here that overused Image are Innovative. That shows, how good the Business works.
I think you're way too caught up in an idea about innovation and intelligence being exclusive to niche genres. Even if the genre is fairly dumb to begin with, and we can agree that pop music is compared to say 12 tone music or musique concrète, then this doesn't mean that a musician within this genre can't do something that's innovative within that formula.
Last time I checked the whole intersex/hermaphrodite image hadn't been used by other pop musicians? And that did seem to stir up quite a lot of people and actually challenge the preconceived idea about what a "popstar" could be. And soundwise, she is actually doing something that breaks with the mold and hasn't been done by a million pop muscians before here - I'm hard-pressed to find any other chart musicians that are using as "ugly" and dissonant vocal delivery as she does at certain points, something that definitely breaks with the trend. It's not because I actually like her music, but I'm not afraid to actually find positives in it - I don't have to enter "I hate Britney" mode every time someone say "pop music".
QuoteI have an very consistent point to my argument and I also put up points as to what I'd see as preferable to what they are doing. So what is it my argument is lacking?
Your Argument is lacking your Intention.
I asked you:
Quotebut for what should this changes be?
Thats an important Point
QuoteSo of course there is such a thing as objectivity, but in a discussion of politics and aesthetics it's pretty impossible to stay in the objective scale
Why should it be Impossible to Stay Objective?
Quoteeven your arguments are highly subjective and based on your preferences and ideas
In which way are my Arguments Subjective?
Quote(just notice how many times you're making assumptions about intention and the like, for example).
Repeating is first step in Memorising. But whats Subjective within talking about Intention?
QuoteThere were no "focus" you mentiont it as generally so as you wrote and this is false.
What's your point here? FreakAnimalFinland was the one who brought up WP rock and the crude, unmusical nature of it? So the original focus was, at least if I read FreakAnimalFinland correctly, on that side of WP rock.
I talk about your Focus/Argument, nothing else.
QuoteAnd even if this is merely the intention to present a barrage of hateful vocal assaults, then (correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't the point of WP/RAC rock also to challenge an established order and/or provoke?
QuoteWhereas the "bonehead quality" comes into play
i answered to this Arguments.
QuoteYes. Sex Pistols.
Exploited
QuoteI think you're way too caught up in an idea about innovation and intelligence being exclusive to niche genres
I think you misunderstood something, since YOU where the one who want innovation in this P:E Act, not me
QuoteEven if the genre is fairly dumb to begin with, and we can agree that pop music is compared to say 12 tone music or musique concrète, then this doesn't mean that a musician within this genre can't do something that's innovative within that formula.
Pop Music is just Popular Music and nobody can really say, whats under this monicker. Heavy Metal to Black Metal, Noise/Rythm Noise to Rave, Punk to RAC Music, all is POPmusic in its sense it is Popular. Most of these Genres entered the Charts btw. Goth and so much others also. There were so much Innovative and New Music about it....
So you switch from Lady Gaga to whole Popmusic genre, this switching is often within your writings and its, to be critism, not really good to consider with it as writer. Lady Gaga is a Madonna Clone with some other nice Influences. No new Images, no new Music, no new scandals, no new discussions, nothing new. But since most people forgot about Chartmusic after 1 Year, it is normal that 2 ore more years will for sure be forgotten. Little nice example from Popchartmusic. Its seems now Trendy with SM stuff in Chartmusic like lady gaga, Rihanna, kate perry a little bit and so on. Little Dark Goth clichee too. Same stuff were done by Madonna and Christina Aquelera some years ago. Now its total BRANDNEW. great, or?
To Focus it a little bit:
Your argument is to change the Music from CR. My Question is, for what purpose should be made this changes and it is in the end of the line really the Intention of the Artist to changing something in it?
Quote from: Goat93 on July 10, 2011, 02:40:18 PM
Your Argument is lacking your Intention.
I asked you:
Quotebut for what should this changes be?
Thats an important Point
And I said right from the beginning that I found it to be lacking political ambition, challenging expression of ideas etc etc - obviously what I'd like the changes to be, is exactly for it to include those things. How hard is that to figure out?
Quote
Why should it be Impossible to Stay Objective?
Politics and aesthetics are based on human valuation and judgment - they're human constructs, not nature-given objects, therefore making objective calls are not possible. If you're discussing a political topic, then your opinions on this topic will be based on your own political values (or lack thereof) which are
subjective. When you're not just stating complete facts (such as 1+1=2, black people have darker pigmented skin), and therefore making judgments then you're doing nothing more than trying to feign objectivity.
QuoteIn which way are my Arguments Subjective?
The above and as I wrote:
Quote from: myselfjust notice how many times you're making assumptions about intention and the like, for example.
You're applying your own ideas and presumptions, when you're making judgment calls about other people's intentions, without having them first-hand from the person himself.
QuoteI talk about your Focus/Argument, nothing else.
Then I don't understand what you're talking about. Care to explain?
QuoteExploited
Seriously? The Clash.
QuoteI think you misunderstood something, since YOU where the one who want innovation in this P:E Act, not me
Yes, I do want that in connection with this PE act. I don't see it as exclusive to niche genres, such as PE. But you seem to be very focused on there being no innovation/intelligence in pop music.
QuotePop Music is just Popular Music and nobody can really say, whats under this monicker. Heavy Metal to Black Metal, Noise/Rythm Noise to Rave, Punk to RAC Music, all is POPmusic in its sense it is Popular. Most of these Genres entered the Charts btw. Goth and so much others also. There were so much Innovative and New Music about it....
Yeah, to some extend, that's right. And a lot of genres have entered the charts. In the general use of the work "pop music" though, it's not really applied to black metal or hardcore techno, is it? So aren't you just quibbling here?
Lots of real pop music has been highly innovative though, for sure.
QuoteSo you switch from Lady Gaga to whole Popmusic genre, this switching is often within your writings and its, to be critism, not really good to consider with it as writer. Lady Gaga is a Madonna Clone with some other nice Influences. No new Images, no new Music, no new scandals, no new discussions, nothing new. But since most people forgot about Chartmusic after 1 Year, it is normal that 2 ore more years will for sure be forgotten. Little nice example from Popchartmusic. Its seems now Trendy with SM stuff in Chartmusic like lady gaga, Rihanna, kate perry a little bit and so on. Little Dark Goth clichee too. Same stuff were done by Madonna and Christina Aquelera some years ago. Now its total BRANDNEW. great, or?
No, I'm really not switching from Lady Gaga to the whole pop music genre, I'm making no generalizations about the genre as a whole, except saying that innovation/intelligence applies to it too - I really don't get where you see this switch? She's just a fairly good example of innovation seen in the context of a fairly homogeneous genre - so innovation in this sense is mainly just breaking the mold of your run-of-the-mill pop musician and challenging preconceived ideas about what a pop musician is supposed to be, it's not reinventing the wheel.
Madonna didn't really have the hermaphrodite thing going either did she, eh? As far as I've observed, then Lady Gaga has effectively put the subject of gender up for discussion in a broad mainstream sense, which hardly any other popstar before had done and certainly not in as radical a way. Again, she's not reinventing the wheel - pop music is always trendbased - but the ones that make it really big with pop music seem to always be the ones that have an intelligent or innovative edge to it.
QuoteTo Focus it a little bit:
Your argument is to change the Music from CR. My Question is, for what purpose should be made this changes and it is in the end of the line really the Intention of the Artist to changing something in it?
Again, how the hell should we know what the intention of the artist is? Except the artist himself and whoever he expressed his intentions too, then we can't make assumptions about it.
And right from the beginning my critique was that the political content had no real political impact or value, due to it's use of rhetoric etc etc (see the previous posts, restating my points is starting to get
really boring), so the purpose of the changes would obviously be to actually obtain a quality of political value/impact/usability. I have no idea if the artist wants this and quite frankly I don't care, I criticize the track based on the expression it actually has and actually displays.
http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
Quote from: ShillKill on July 10, 2011, 08:11:24 PM
http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
diversionary straw man
The piece at this link goes on too long, undermining some of the humor, but I can't help think of it at this point in the CR video thread:
http://simplyleftbehind.blogspot.com/2006/07/how-conservatives-argue.html
Hey, guys, you´re walking on circles, aren´t you?
@ nidding, AC and Litharge
Forget Control Resistance and explain to the readers at Special Interests the inaccuracy and insignificance of the information expressed in the article at this website:
http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
Quote from: ShillKill on July 10, 2011, 10:02:34 PM
@ nidding, AC and Litharge
Forget Control Resistance and explain to the readers at Special Interests the inaccuracy and insignificance of the information expressed in the article at this website:
http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
Again -- you're offering a diversionary straw man argument. The main gist of this thread is the Control Resistance video, and re-issues of their recordings, and their political and aesthetic merit/effectiveness. If you want to argue the validity of conspiracy theories regarding Jews and their roles in American politics, finance, and culture you should probably start a new thread dedicated to that topic. Speaking for myself, I have no particular interest in debating that claim at the moment, but would considering reading material discussing the issue if it seemed to hold out the potential for intelligent, reasonably un-biased analysis.
@ Letharge
After noticing the link to the blatantly kosher ACLU in your blog and hearing your admission of your Jewish ancestry I'm certainly not surprised. You suggest starting another blog to discuss the significance of the article on Jewish domination of America. Who is the diversionary straw man now???
@ nidding, AC and Litharge
My offer still stands unanswered!
Forget Control Resistance and explain to the readers at Special Interests the inaccuracy and insignificance of the information expressed in the article at this website:
http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
Quote from: ShillKill on July 10, 2011, 11:46:00 PM
@ Letharge
After noticing the link to the blatantly kosher ACLU in your blog and hearing your admission of your Jewish ancestry I'm certainly not surprised. You suggest starting another blog to discuss the significance of the article on Jewish domination of America. Who is the diversionary straw man now???
@ nidding, AC and Litharge
My offer still stands unanswered!
Forget Control Resistance and explain to the readers at Special Interests the inaccuracy and insignificance of the information expressed in the article at this website:
http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/
Heh, now I know you're just trolling at this point. Do you even know the meaning of a "straw man argument"? Either trolling, or you're like one of those socially ill-equipped, painfully oblivious fanatics who obsessively turns all discussion towards his bete noire. The twitchy, too-tightly-wound guy at the party, cafe, or other casual gathering who never fails to derail any conversation within earshot towards the Federal Reserve, or the United Nations, or how citizen don't -really- have to pay taxes, or the Jews, THE JEWS, THE JEEEWWWSSS!!!
At any rate, yes, I'm glad the ACLU is around, and I renew my basic membership annually. And hey -- thanks for the additional view at the blog.