How do you think, has industrial music (noise, pe, postindustrial etc.) changed our reality, art, culture and people? I don't mean mainstream, only the micro world in which we are living. If so, what exactly?
It's an incorporated part of a whole for my life that has definitely had an influence upon it, just as my life has had an influence on what I record and occasionally perform. "Real life" is a fucking shitshow that needs strong medicine to palliate it.
i think that it has an influent on the "microworld" as you said, but i also think that the micro world, where we started had influent on the industrial music, and this genre will be feeded by the world and society for a long long time
It's a two-way line of influence between "real life" and the stuff that goes into my ears. "Industrial music" happens to center around many of my areas of interest, witch can be explored more conveniently when being exposed to things by music. On the other hand, I find myself being inspired by my areas of interest in real life to explore them in the form of music. It's just a nice niche I've not found in other areas of music and in only compartmentalized areas of my personal life. Pretty much functions as an aggregate of things I'd like to be aware of.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 06, 2016, 04:45:49 PM
"Real life" is a fucking shitshow that needs strong medicine to palliate it.
Hear, hear!
Nonetheless, I think industrial has changed my reality certainly. I mean, its made me lead a slightly more isolated life, as it tends to go hand in hand with all my other people alienating hobbies. But I think it also feeds my incessant need to create. I can sit down at my gear and make something half listenable most of the time, and that keeps me at a base level of sanity that I would probably lose if I couldn't just scream into a microphone every day.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 06, 2016, 04:45:49 PM
It's an incorporated part of a whole for my life that has definitely had an influence upon it, just as my life has had an influence on what I record and occasionally perform. "Real life" is a fucking shitshow that needs strong medicine to palliate it.
I see that industrial music has created your taste and shaped your world view.. but... If we see industrial music as the best form of misanthropy world view, are you misanthropy man in ordinary day too? How is this misanthropy in relation to activity here, on forum? Besides, does industrial music influence on your relation to women? Or, maybe industrial music has affected only on your general aesthetics?
Anyway, I am just curious, how such music like industrial music is able to change men, their relation to other people, environment, and last but not least, value system and ethics.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PM
does industrial music influence on your relation to women?
There's a very obvious joke to be made here.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PM...are you misanthropy man in ordinary day too?
Yes, but unfortunately to have a hassle-free life I have to compromise, which means in practice not going around punching everyone out. To quote the comedian Kate McCartney, "I spend my days not being an arsehole".
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PMHow is this misanthropy in relation to activity here, on forum?
You don't have to be a misanthrope to be on this forum but it helps.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PMBesides, does industrial music influence on your relation to women?
It hasn't.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PMOr, maybe industrial music has affected only on your general aesthetics?
It more
fits in with my general aesthetics, but originally it helped by allowing me to question and eventually reject a lot of previous notions I had adopted out of stupidity. My values and ethics I work out for myself, but since I indulge in a lot of Noisetc., it would be impossible for it not to have an effect at least subconsciously.
It's hard to say what tendency comes from where, but I will say that my appreciation of an arbitrary sense of real life certainly seems to be going strong. Industrial culture may or may not enhance this sense, but the pull cannot be denied. Possibly the only sure fire way of resisting the pull, no irony intended, would be jumping off a bridge; that soaring feeling once posited by Illusion Of Safety.
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 01:32:39 AM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PM
does industrial music influence on your relation to women?
There's a very obvious joke to be made here.
Not intended. I didn't mean only "relation" which we know from noise/PE aesthetics. I can imagine that deep engaging in listening to industrial music is able to change (or accelarate) personality.... I think we could find examples with that.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 07, 2016, 06:00:31 AM
It more fits in with my general aesthetics, but originally it helped by allowing me to question and eventually reject a lot of previous notions I had adopted out of stupidity. My values and ethics I work out for myself, but since I indulge in a lot of Noisetc., it would be impossible for it not to have an effect at least subconsciously.
I see. So, we can say that "industrial music" didn't change anything to you... maybe only it accelarated some attributes ?
Recently I think a lot about art, as phenomena in our life. How is it important for artist, and how important for receiver? I suppose that art is more important tool for a creator than for a receiver. I suppose it may be a source of crisis in industrial music (in art generally).
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 07, 2016, 07:18:42 AM
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 01:32:39 AM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PM
does industrial music influence on your relation to women?
There's a very obvious joke to be made here.
Not intended. I didn't mean only "relation" which we know from noise/PE aesthetics. I can imagine that deep engaging in listening to industrial music is able to change (or accelarate) personality.... I think we could find examples with that.
he's calling us all virgins mate. HE'S LAUGHING AT US.
Quote from: aububs on May 07, 2016, 10:16:12 AM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 07, 2016, 07:18:42 AM
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 01:32:39 AM
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PM
does industrial music influence on your relation to women?
There's a very obvious joke to be made here.
Not intended. I didn't mean only "relation" which we know from noise/PE aesthetics. I can imagine that deep engaging in listening to industrial music is able to change (or accelarate) personality.... I think we could find examples with that.
he's calling us all virgins mate. HE'S LAUGHING AT US.
Yep.
But I know it isn't true and I listen to prog which is a far more reliable form of contraception. Funny side note - I was purchasing a Wrong Hole 7" the other day and my girlfriend said 'it's surprising that a noise guy would think there could even be a wrong hole'. She's right.
To answer to question though: I suppose if listening to noise/industrial/pe has done anything for my own life it's to have made me feel far more comfortable in my own views and the ability to deal with the fact that people and viewpoints that I disagree with exist. I'm a pretty liberal and left leaning person and I feel a lot of that has been strengthened by listening to music which tackles 'controversial' themes. To embrace the darker side of things - by which I don't mean getting excited over images of KKK members or nasty words pertaining to rape, but more accepting and looking at the part of the human psyche that wants to either avoid or dwell within such things - one is able to hone a particular kind of dialectical approach to their life and politics which might otherwise be stifled by fear. It's often a conclusion that the result of this is to turn into a pissed of misanthrope and while I, like anyone else, have my moments, this is far from the whole picture for me.
All of this is to say nothing of the network of people involved in such music which is probably more influential than anything - direct contact with other people based upon a similar interest...but I suppose that is more obvious and should remain a separate discussion.
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 11:48:38 AM
I feel a lot of that has been strengthened by listening to music which tackles 'controversial' themes. To embrace the darker side of things - by which I don't mean getting excited over images of KKK members or nasty words pertaining to rape, but more accepting and looking at the part of the human psyche that wants to either avoid or dwell within such things - one is able to hone a particular kind of dialectical approach to their life and politics which might otherwise be stifled by fear. It's often a conclusion that the result of this is to turn into a pissed of misanthrope and while I, like anyone else, have my moments, this is far from the whole picture for me.
All of this is to say nothing of the network of people involved in such music which is probably more influential than anything - direct contact with other people based upon a similar interest...but I suppose that is more obvious and should remain a separate discussion.
This is hedonistic way. Of course there are many reasons why people decided to listen such music and every way should be accepted. My question(s) didn't suggest how people/listeners should treat industrial music, or how industrial music should shape its listeners... I was wondering this relation, its range and problem which I could describe: if there is any power in industrial music which is able to change people today?
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 11:48:38 AMTo embrace the darker side of things...one is able to hone a particular kind of dialectical approach to their life and politics which might otherwise be stifled by fear.
yeh that's the positive side of listening to industrial, and how it can change your life, reality, general aesthetics etc.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 06:42:44 PMIf we see industrial music as the best form of misanthropy world view
and while there's nothing at all wrong with a bit of misanthropy, that's getting at the negative side, which can lead to the kind of close-minded, conservative, bigoted bullshit that so-called industrial fans often adopt, and that we see often on this very forum.
it's not what you asked, but the way in which you let Industrial music affect your life really depends on how much of an idiot you are.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 07, 2016, 07:41:11 AM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 07, 2016, 06:00:31 AM
It more fits in with my general aesthetics, but originally it helped by allowing me to question and eventually reject a lot of previous notions I had adopted out of stupidity. My values and ethics I work out for myself, but since I indulge in a lot of Noisetc., it would be impossible for it not to have an effect at least subconsciously.
I see. So, we can say that "industrial music" didn't change anything to you... maybe only it accelarated some attributes ?
The more I think about it, the more it seems like a chicken-and-egg question. Who's attracted to such sounds/imagery/ideas in the first place? There'd have to be at least some kind of morbid curiosity in someone, even if they did fancy themselves a good lefty liberal or whatever. So if there's an attraction in the first place, it's pretty much because there'd be something in the person that's attracted.
Quote from: theotherjohn on May 07, 2016, 03:06:07 PM
No. Is that the answer you wanted?
I wanted your answer only :)
Frankly speaking, I wanted to read more answers with declarations this music has got huge influence on life, especially among younger people, at least on this forum.
Quote from: aububs on May 07, 2016, 04:35:06 PM
but the way in which you let Industrial music affect your life really depends on how much of an idiot you are.
And your opinion can be confirmation how art is weak in confrontation to life. It speaks that one of the biggest value of art is positive (or negative, it depends on situation) capability changing human minds, their sensitivity, not mention knowledge about world and their psychological aspects which can led to transgression.
The problem you have, ImpulsyStetoskopu, is that you're falling into the trap of believing that industrial music - when viewed at the level of a musical subculture - has something more profound to offer than any other kind of musical subculture. Of course there are messages in music that can be influential and the opportunities to be exposed to other kinds of culture and people will have direct and lasting effects on people and their lives, but really this is just what it means to take part in an appreciation of some kind of art or, perhaps more accurately, a hobby.
Appreciation of music is, for the most part, an inherently social thing which I think is excellent. Why, only a few hours ago I was sat having a beer or two with a music pal and shooting the shit about all kinds of stuff. For me, these are some of the precious moments in life. But to imagine that something different is happening among he and I to, say, a load of Prince or Motorhead fans is more or less foolish. I can't think of a single person who is demonstrably effected by industrial music outside of these cultural & social things at least alongside a love of the music. To be honest, most people I love who I have met through music are interesting to me because they have fully formed and compelling characters, not just because they demonstrate some kind of epitomised lifestyle of that music. In fact, the very few people I've met who have very little else to say or do without reference to being into noise and power electronics have usually been really awkward, crushing bores who don't seem all that happy and fulfilled in their own lives. Nothing to do with their chosen genre, of course, but more to do with a limited amount of things in life which give them pleasure and, sadly, perhaps a limited ability to express themselves socially.
I don't know...I get why you've asked this question but I think there is very little to be discovered in how a love of industrial music shapes the lives of its listeners that you wouldn't ultimately discover in anyone who is a devout fan of anything.
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 05:50:23 PM
The problem you have, ImpulsyStetoskopu, is that you're falling into the trap of believing that industrial music - when viewed at the level of a musical subculture - has something more profound to offer than any other kind of musical subculture.
Bullshit. I didn't write or even suggest about that anywhere. We take part in forum which is dedicated to industrial music, not rock, jazz or disco. I could ask about art (in general) but who would like to answer?
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 05:50:23 PM
I get why you've asked this question but I think there is very little to be discovered in how a love of industrial music shapes the lives of its listeners that you wouldn't ultimately discover in anyone who is a devout fan of anything.
Only reason was to know how other people from this forum feel this problem (if it is problem at all). I hope you accept this reason.
Hmmm, interesting question. I suppose I haven't, in the same way that I would actively try to not let other musical scenes "influence" me in how I think, look or act - given that that "scenes" are just made up of people who I may or may not like, get along with and identify with. Ideologically I don't think so either. I would never want to be "defined" by a subculture and truth be told I'd be wary of people who do.
I do really identify with the confrontational/challenging/outsider aspect of it, but I think a lot of other things I'm into eschew those same sensibilities, so it's not "industrial music/culture" that shapes that but rather is part of things that I can identify with. The older I get I'm more interested in removing myself from things - I mean ha ha I get it, I signed up for facebook a few months ago so I'm not going full Walden here, but I'm losing interest in living in a big city and constantly being surrounded by people.
I used to really appreciate when a band/project attempts to document the more horrific underbelly of society, however I'm a lefty liberal Canadian so I don't really have any interest in glorifying it. There's something that was so intensely perfect about TG and their aesthetic, that's so rarely replicated, so I'm quite picky about what I'm listening to. I mentioned this in another thread, but I've spent the last 8 years working in a psychiatric hospital so I see a lot of human misery in my day to day life - so typically hearing "concept" records about serial killers or a badly dubbed tape with a cumshot pic on the cover isn't exactly anything interesting to me. I guess I'm much more interested in a project like Hum of the Druid or Einleitungszeit than I am anything to do with power electronics....
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 05:50:23 PMI don't know...I get why you've asked this question but I think there is very little to be discovered in how a love of industrial music shapes the lives of its listeners that you wouldn't ultimately discover in anyone who is a devout fan of anything.
I think that perhaps fans of ice hockey, monster trucks or Mitt Romney might have their lives shaped differently by their interests than fans of industrial music by theirs.
Quote from: theotherjohn on May 07, 2016, 03:06:07 PMI don't know how one goes about in life with the notion that they're more industrial-than-thou, or has let industrial music or culture influence or truly defined a new way of how they lived their life (unless a life-changing injury is involved, and really that's probably more to do with stupidity than fitting in.
Quote from: aububs on May 07, 2016, 04:35:06 PM
conservative, bigoted bullshit that so-called industrial fans often adopt, and that we see often on this very forum. ...the way in which you let Industrial music affect your life really depends on how much of an idiot you are.
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 05:50:23 PMThe problem you have ...
Touchy.
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 08, 2016, 04:39:43 AM
Quote from: theotherjohn on May 07, 2016, 03:06:07 PMI don't know how one goes about in life with the notion that they're more industrial-than-thou, or has let industrial music or culture influence or truly defined a new way of how they lived their life (unless a life-changing injury is involved, and really that's probably more to do with stupidity than fitting in.
Quote from: aububs on May 07, 2016, 04:35:06 PM
conservative, bigoted bullshit that so-called industrial fans often adopt, and that we see often on this very forum. ...the way in which you let Industrial music affect your life really depends on how much of an idiot you are.
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 05:50:23 PMThe problem you have ...
Touchy.
Sorry, you're right.
What I meant to say is that it has taught me how much to hate the world and all its people.
Quote from: Stoa on May 08, 2016, 01:01:44 AM
I think that perhaps fans of ice hockey, monster trucks or Mitt Romney might have their lives shaped differently by their interests than fans of industrial music by theirs.
Yeah, I think so. Though it can depend on some factors... I know or rather knew some people who were listening to industrial / experimental music but their life was shaped in traditional way. I suppose their connection with this music was on aesthetic level only (and I don't value that).
I would like to explain strongly that (for me) shaping and spiritual identification to industrial music (for example) needn't to mean that somebody should be a ripper, a die-hard misogynist or misanthrope, serial killer and so on. It is funny for me if somebody (like a Pavlov's dog) associates these cases so easy. I consider spiritual identification to industrial music more like living with values against widely binding rules in society/cultur. Full control under our life, living/recording/creating according OUR rules, not by society doesn't mean that we should kill other people and practise all sexual perversies. That's all popular icons of antisocial phenomenas which are mindles linked to industrial music are only aesthetic overstatement, what is obvious act in creation process of art.
Quote from: aububs on May 07, 2016, 04:35:06 PM
it's not what you asked, but the way in which you let Industrial music affect your life really depends on how much of an idiot you are.
This suggest what industrial music has to offer, is
idiotic? That the less you actually cherish substance sometimes presented within industrial music, less idiot you are?
Already commented by many, but:
Quote from: Stoa on May 08, 2016, 01:01:44 AM
I think that perhaps fans of ice hockey, monster trucks or Mitt Romney might have their lives shaped differently by their interests than fans of industrial music by theirs.
Which to me, seems obvious. All you need to do, is go out and meet people outside underground scene, and you see distinctive difference. Of course, the "scene" itself, is already vastly heterogenous. Still, I'm pretty sure within industrial people, I tend to find more personalities to associate than I would find from... let's say among Iron Maiden fan meet. As soon as we get beyond the small-talk and surface level fandom, there are many traits which are if not unique to industrial, at least very common. For example:
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 08, 2016, 07:42:26 AM
I would like to explain strongly that (for me) shaping and spiritual identification to industrial music (for example) needn't to mean that somebody should be a ripper, a die-hard misogynist or misanthrope, serial killer and so on. It is funny for me if somebody (like a Pavlov's dog) associates these cases so easy. I consider spiritual identification to industrial music more like living with values against widely binding rules in society/cultur. Full control under our life, living/recording/creating according OUR rules, not by society doesn't mean that we should kill other people and practise all sexual perversies.
What probably returns back to first quote. I'm pretty sure what was meant with
"close-minded, conservative, bigoted bullshit", but I simply wouldn't agree on such perception.
To re-evaluate (moral) values or reality, starting from very core of human condition. To be open for new ideas and new interpretations of old ideas. Close-minded. Conservative. Bigoted. Oh yes, I can see what it probably refers to, but to me it appears many times accurate words would be rather exact opposites: Revolutionary. Open-minded.
It is merely intellectual laziness to simply file all one's personal dislikes under "incorrigible bigots". In history of industrial music, I feel that process of evaluation has been one of the key elements. To present things without clear agenda, and allow people look at the beast from eye to eye without offering template how to react. I'm sure the part of the new generation will just drop conclusions as "racists", "sexists", whatever. Fine. While the current mainstream society in west may be content with this conclusion, I would guess that in industrial music one would merely follow with questions such as: "...and?"
This approach can be the approach in this so called "real life", if you want to separate it from what you do within "industrial music".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 08, 2016, 09:52:34 AMThis suggest what industrial music has to offer, is idiotic?
I'm hardly painting it all with the same brush. I noted the positive aspects of it too, as mentioned by Duncan and further detailed by yourself.
As with anything else, Industrial is GREAT, and also SHIT. It's down to the individual to decide how they'll let it affect their "real life" and what aspects of it they'll adhere to.
Quote from: aububs on May 08, 2016, 01:43:13 PM
As with anything else, Industrial is GREAT, and also SHIT. It's down to the individual to decide how they'll let it affect their "real life" and what aspects of it they'll adhere to.
Yeah... And what individual from your personal "real" life did you adopt from the "great industrial", if I may ask?
Is "open-minded" like we say "open legs" ? "Progressive" to where ? You know ? ... I think i prefer to stay "close-minded" and "conservative".
All it takes for the average lefty to brand people conservative and closed minded is to not fit in with their dogma. One may not be any of those things but commies don't like dissent so they try and demonise you. In the good old days it was enemy of the state/people/working class etc and off to the Gulag you go. Today it's bigot/racist/misogynist etc and you may lose your job or if more high flying have your career destroyed. While their methods to suppress are different today the intolerance is the same.
Industrial as it was and is is bound to clash with the left. That's also why it's still an important and relative genre.
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 08, 2016, 01:48:35 PM
Quote from: aububs on May 08, 2016, 01:43:13 PM
As with anything else, Industrial is GREAT, and also SHIT. It's down to the individual to decide how they'll let it affect their "real life" and what aspects of it they'll adhere to.
Yeah... And what individual from your personal "real" life did you adopt from the "great industrial", if I may ask?
I think this has been addressed...
Quote from: Duncan on May 07, 2016, 11:48:38 AMTo embrace the darker side of things...one is able to hone a particular kind of dialectical approach to their life and politics which might otherwise be stifled by fear.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 08, 2016, 09:52:34 AM
In history of industrial music, I feel that process of evaluation has been one of the key elements. To present things without clear agenda, and allow people look at the beast from eye to eye without offering template how to react.
I'm afraid I didn't understand your latest whole comment, but these two sentences I liked very much. And I share this opinion completely. I think this "allow look at the beast from eye to eye" is possible only when people will accept/find they are beasts too.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 08, 2016, 02:48:08 PM
Industrial as it was and is is bound to clash with the left. That's also why it's still an important and relative genre.
On a more general note, I think scenes like industrial and black metal are important in the sense that they are repositories for ideas and concepts completely shut out of mainstream culture. Even when these ideas are now rejected as "on the wrong side of history" or just plain insane, it is still good that they subsist somewhere, in case circumstances might warrant their resurrection. This is something the left should perhaps appreciate a wee bit more, given the current political developments in the world. European "political correctness" is mutating to amend its blacklist with such things as islamist ideology (in fact much of islamic beliefs as a whole), arguments comparing Israeli politics and nazism, "economic populism" and a number of other previously tolerated or encouraged staples of leftist sociopolitical thought. The left should worry far less about repressing its real or imagined political fringe enemies, and far more about the fact that it is about to become completely irrelevant, or perhaps even repressed itself. When that happens, they may need Unrest Productions to release their albums expressing frustrated fantasies of reestablished welfare states and open borders, since the mainstream media will be busy cheering Geert Wilders. I doubt they will understand this, though, and frankly I couldn't care less.
I think, on the discussion of close mindedness vs open-mindedness in industrial, I've always seen industrial as open minded as a whole, even if one project is very set in its ideology. Take Snuff, if a newcomer listened to "Male Supremacy", even in the few moments before shutting it off in disgust, they are forced to open their mind and live in a world where woman are less than men. In this way, I think that industrial is good, because it forces you to stare in the face of something that you might find abhorrent. When I listened to the new GO LP, I was forced to think about the South African guerrillas, which I hadn't given much thought to before, and it opened my mind to what was happening. This is why I think industrial is one of the most powerful music genres, because most projects are still not afraid to take on ugly topics. Whether one ends up burning down a synagogue after listening to Brethren or merely writing an angry blog post, they are still made to think about why people believe in such things.
Being relatively apolitical myself, I still enjoy political PE and noise because I have to exist in the world of the politically minded for a short time. Just some thoughts that probably don't make much sense anyway.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 08, 2016, 02:48:08 PM
Industrial as it was and is is bound to clash with the left. That's also why it's still an important and relative genre.
A controversial statement. Was GPO and his TG or SPK against to left circles? I don't think so. CV, NOCTURNAL EMISSIONS, ZOVIET FRANCE, TEST DEPT, LE SYNDICAT, TNB and many more were rather leftists (some of them even in radical politics views like NE or TEST DEPT). Of course there were some with right views, but are we sured it was their true statements, not artistic provocations?
Anyway, there isn't point split people involved in industrial music on left or right thinking enemies. First of all because of art is lie... We are able to find only what contents has been used in this art, not individual preferences in politics of artists. Besides, enjoy all of them (left and right contents) in the industrial music, each of them can be worth and necessary in our life.
The left imagines it has the answer to everything and not least has a monopoly on the morals of our time. The left also has a choke hold on academia and culture and actively excludes those who don't belong to the club. Industrial with its ambivalent stance, even as an outsider culture/music genre, clashes by default.
The left in the days of TG was a very different left to the one we endure today. TG is a fucking museum piece now and are not relevant to industrial anymore. TNB is an alcoholic has been who uses younger people who have the talent he lost down a bottle and fucks them over for their efforts. Who cares what he stands for? Nocturnal Emissions as a champion of Who Makes The Nazis is a good example of a lefty at odds with what he was once a part of. Ex members of the industrial community are often the ones who become its biggest detractors.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 09, 2016, 09:05:30 AM
The left in the days of TG was a very different left to the one we endure today. TG is a fucking museum piece now and are not relevant to industrial anymore. TNB is an alcoholic has been who uses younger people who have the talent he lost down a bottle and fucks them over for their efforts. Who cares what he stands for? Nocturnal Emissions as a champion of Who Makes The Nazis is a good example of a lefty at odds with what he was once a part of. Ex members of the industrial community are often the ones who become its biggest detractors.
Yeah, of course... I have the same impressions, but then 35 years ago, they were shaping industrial music successfully.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 09, 2016, 09:05:30 AM
Ex members of the industrial community are often the ones who become its biggest detractors.
And this is sad. But there are artists from the "right" side (or consciously used controversial right-wing iconography) who are mockery of industrial music now. For example Boyd Rice, Blackhouse, Blutharsh, William Bennett, DIJ or LAIBACH. The defective elements are people here, not ideology.
Those too are clowns and as irrelevant as the others mentioned. Museum pieces and/or cynicals milking their legacy to make a buck while keeping the nice lifestyle going. Don't forget to include Consumer Electronics with their current "oh how awful it is with violent men" threnodies. The Wire probably loves it but enough of us see it for the opportune bullshit it is. Latin beat added for extra weakness.
So a few individuals have lost their way but Industrial still remains on collision course with the left and because of the nature of the modern left more so than before. Also, the left, but this goes for any ideology that eventually grows too powerful, doesn't deal with individuals or people, it deals with ideology and those who don't fit are to be silenced.
If there is such a word, outsidership. That's the drug of industrial. It can be very intoxicating and I've seen some lose themselves to it in both tragic and pathetic ways. Those of us who know how to indulge it in a responsible and adult way find it a very useful tool and fuel indeed.
Quote from: theotherjohn on May 09, 2016, 11:05:55 AM
I can't place a specific drug to it. Body modification? Perhaps, but even industrial was relatively late to the game with that, and I certainly don't see it applied to the noise scene. Are spray paint fumes and PayPal our drugs?
I think the "industrial music" has never been a standard genre and subculture (though I know some people who say this music was dead when it was considered as standard type of music). I suppose that it wasn't any of that, and maybe this was one of reasons that (young) people weren't able to identication with that through drugs, fashion or lifestyle.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 09, 2016, 09:05:30 AM
The left also has a choke hold on academia and culture and actively excludes those who don't belong to the club. Industrial with its ambivalent stance, even as an outsider culture/music genre, clashes by default.
I would agree on this. I doubt many would claim there is something overtly extreme right in industrial music in general. It is enough that there is something what appears
confusing enough, and it is not apologized or explained.
I would guess most people in association of genre, barely fit into traditional political directions. It can be hard to really judge whether their political stance is actually merely sarcasm, even (or especially!) if they explain it.
Quote from: theotherjohn on May 09, 2016, 12:42:33 PM
it felt like the prior rules of what a music culture should have had been torn up. That's also why I don't feel any particularly strong affinity to the "scene" and reject most notions or concepts placed upon it. It's a true anti-art. Rejecting it only strengthens its power.
I'd assume it's question what is scene? If it would be tightly connected club, it would called as such. Scene to me merely indicates what you see out there. You look phenomena of industrial music, and it's somewhat active participants doing what they do. That's the
scene. It's hardly important if the individuals feel like being part of something.
Original opening question was how industrial changed our reality, art, culture and people. It could be also thought that perhaps question was needed to be simple enough without any need to remind that industrial isn't merely something that is given, but one often actively shapes it by involvement. It's been said by several people, how dull it is that industrial people look the same, listen the same, read same books, watch same movies, are interested in same fringe cultures, etc. I don't think it is actually true, but looked from distance - that's what it looks like.
I don't know ANYONE in Finland, who say they feel like belonging to "scene". Or lets say, one or two. Still this element must be one of strongest common thing. Everybody is outsider, everybody rejects everything, everybody has different stance on matters, yet...
If one would ask me, Theotherjohn seems like prototype of UK industrial scene guy, heh. No offense at all. Just looking from this perspective. It seems like in quoted message he clearly replied the mentioned original question how
industrial changed our reality, our art and our people.
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 09, 2016, 05:04:32 PM
Everybody is outsider, everybody rejects everything, everybody has different stance on matters, yet...
To me this is the most important point and its reason. I would also say that the whole discussion about left vs. right is pointless, because old prototypes of left and right have no meaning and no relevance anymore. It is more like predator and prey and I rather stick to survival.
Agree with most of what has been said here. Think the championing of Industrial music fandom as a site of relative free thinking, marginalism and individuality as opposed to this general idea of 'the left' is a bit faulty though and that is without really having any disagreement with what it is we're attributing to this 'left'.
theotherjohn as typical UK industrial guy had me smiling though! I get Mikko's point entirely about it only being appearance and impression but I'm glad to know better in person, heh.
I never said anything about industrial as a beacon of free thinking and individualism. I merely pointed out that industrial for its inherent traits is on a natural collision course with the left as it is today. The repressive dominant left that holds the media, academia and culture in a vice.
Theotherjohn strikes me as a typical once UK industrial fan. A bit jaded, decidedly left wing and now considers it all a bit beneath him. Not quite as bad a HongKongGoolamong though who's just a condescending prick. Maybe I'm wrong.
Not that it matters that much. I have what I have, I like what I like and more pressing I have a studio to build. Quarrel on gentlemen!
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 09, 2016, 10:17:31 PM
Not quite as bad a HongKongGoolamong though who's just a condescending prick. Maybe I'm wrong.
Cheers for that Martin, I saw Shift once and thought you were great and have releases on your label given to me by the artistes - some of whom have questions about your own character, ha!
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 09, 2016, 10:17:31 PM
I never said anything about industrial as a beacon of free thinking and individualism. I merely pointed out that industrial for its inherent traits is on a natural collision course with the left as it is today. The repressive dominant left that holds the media, academia and culture in a vice.
Theotherjohn strikes me as a typical once UK industrial fan. A bit jaded, decidedly left wing and now considers it all a bit beneath him. Not quite as bad a HongKongGoolamong though who's just a condescending prick. Maybe I'm wrong.
Not that it matters that much. I have what I have, I like what I like and more pressing I have a studio to build. Quarrel on gentlemen!
Can't argue with any part of that first paragraph, fair enough and well put.
As for the definition of a typical jaded industrial fan, well, I get that...but do his left wing politics fit in with the left as it is today, as you said? Does John strike you as the kind of person that will cover his eyes and ears when confronted with something that doesn't fit with his own views? Seems to me he has very much engaged with the debate here. And, speaking only from my own experience now, I'd like to think there is a bit of a difference between thinking something is beneath you to having perhaps just run out of interest in something which seems to repeat itself quite a bit?
I dunno...beyond all this it comes down to listening. I enjoy a good fat chew about what it all means and will admit to my share of sarcastic smart arsery (which, for the little it's worth is by no means reserved only for industrial music and its more devout, involved fans) but at the end of it all I enjoy playing a hell of a lot of 'this music' for what it does to my ears and gut and tend not to think much else about it when doing so. I should imagine it's the same for John.
Beyond all else though, I'd love to hear your definition of a CURRENT industrial fan, UK or otherwise!
Hope that studio build is swift and fruitful.
To me whats interesting is if you replaced "industrial" with "black metal" the discussion would look strikingly similar if not identical. That's 2016 though, both seem to be increasingly polarized by people applying their definitions of what is and what isn't to the greater whole. And most likely thats the reason there are so many "disenfranchised detractors" as people just aren't finding what they're looking for. It's no longer possible to live in a micro-bubble thanks to bandcamp, forums, facebook and the realities of what the "scene" consists of are increasingly visible.
One observation: if we limit the discussion of "the Left" to anti fascists of the type that commonly hold opinions on Industrial music(ians), that type of person has always boggled my mind. I get that one could be opposed to major political and social trends, being against "the power" and all that. I don't get why one would bother with the opinions or political art of an extremely obscure scene - musical or otherwise. If I see some stalinist communist sect (they do still exist) distributing pamphlets, I find it funny and a bit interesting. I might talk to them, ignore them or at worst tell them to go fuck themselves. On no account would I register a blog to detail the lives of the individual members, or start some retarded social club to "fight stalinism". If this wasn't even a political organization, but some band whose members possibly helt communist, or any other absurd, views, I can't really think under what circumstances and in what name I would feel the need to prevent them from playing for their marginalized and politically irrelevant audience.
It is a disgusting mindset, completely alien to me, and I'm not a particularly liberal guy. The dominance of values I find to be shit - that can make me angry. The existence of small, peculiar groups of people with opinions I don't share cannot. I think you have to be a somewhat disturbed person with actual potential for totalitarian sadism to even feel the need to "fight" or destroy such groups.
HG: One MAJOR difference between BM and industrial is that BM was usurped by hipsters and trendies - even that abomination of a human being Thurston Moore got his hooks in to the genre for a while - who made it cool and safe enough for them and their asshole friends to pretend to be into. Among many great and serious bands and projects sprung up hipster frivolities ready to piss in the well. Industrial, thank fuck, remains uncool and (hopefully) too uncomfortable for that lot. Not that that couldn't change of course. Fingers crossed it doesn't because I'd have to go out and hunt them down with the Finnyxan.
Duncan, caveat for "I could be wrong". Left wing tends to follow as a natural attribute. Not that it makes a person inherently evil, not always, but it often follows the smuggard who knows better than thou. It feels a bit odd to discuss someone (I think) I've never even met and making assumptions as to who he is but I started it so let's say I doubt it's a covering of ears and eyes and a more "yawn, saw this 25 years ago and it was better, but live and let live". Like I said, better than HongMong who I maintain is just a cunt with an opinion to peddle because that's all his sad life has amounted to. He embodies a UK kind who are legion and all are wankers.
I'd like to imagine a current industrial fan as one who doesn't listen to the condescending opinions of older generations telling them how everything was better in the old days. I'd like to picture them as clean slates with an appetite to explore the current and the previous on equal terms without the snobbery I've encountered from many jaded old (old of body but more so of mind) UK person. Do they exist? I think seeds have been sown and some new weeds have shot up. That's my impression from the third edition of UFoI anyway. I hope to build on that.
Thank you. The studio is slow and painstaking but even at snails pace it'll get there. It'll make a good extension to my industrial lifestyle out here in the sticks.
Nobody in this thread has stepped away from the personal and actually considered the effects the subculture of industrial has had on the real world.
I am old enough to remember how Depeche Mode suddenly had metal bashing mixed in to the background of their '80s chart hits and S&M themed lyrics like the great Master And Servant after Martin Gore had a good night out at some SPK gig in 1983.
In the '90s, Marilyn Manson took a hell of a lot from Pink Floyd's The Wall and from Bowie, but the sick genius that is Antichrist Superstar wouldn't have been the same without the Throbbing Gristle influence. Right down to that Oswald Mosley logo.
Likewise the often brilliant Rammstein who took so much from the equally camp Laibach. What a bunch of perverts, love 'em.
In more recent years, the deliberately 'offensive' videos for female mainstream artistes like Ke$ha and Nicki Minaj have been deeply rooted in the most shocking aspects of industrial culture - admittedly it has been the older male video directors aware of the history who've introduced this but the gals don't exactly seem to be opposed to this schtick.
Personally? I don't honestly know if being an obsessive TG and Whitehouse fan has made me any different from how I may have turned out as a human being. They turned me on to some good books, that I can say.
The original question was "I don't mean mainstream, only the micro world in which we are living". Nothing to do with Kesha or Minaj. Might just as well talk about Zola Jesus (http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=2450) (click for link).
As for politics, fuck politics. As for drugs, they're alright, some of them. As for the real world, fuck the real world.
I will speak at personal level.
Industrial culture somehow accompanied me on a path I already started of building my own life according to my own rules, without peer pressures present in other subcultures I am/have been interested in. There are strong energies flowing from different "scenes", but the non-judgmental/morbidly curious approach of (several) post industrialists who did projects, wrote zines, etc. fitted my attitude and interests from the very beginning.
Once passed the fascination for the often cheap shock value, the complete devotion to getting deeper in certain specific subjects without the moralist/pc overtones led me to rejoice instinctual interests without having to subscribe to a church/party/ideology as many other subcultures.
Scene is a wrong term in such a fluid environment where everything and the contrary of everything often coexist under the same roof, without turning into a tree-hugger, hippie-loving pussy, yet there are people I relate to more often than others and I feel strong alliance, affection, respect, friendship and admiration. I work mostly with them, with some of these I share personal experiences, etc. Does this make us a "scene", maybe but without the jealousy involved in other environments where whenever you piss 5 cm out of the same bucket you are seen like a traitor, etc.
PC is my main hate-pet at the moment, and I want it to see murdered in an form.
I could write for hours regarding the personal experiences. Thanks to industrial I discovered many great projects, movies, books, interests, I got engaged, I got friends, but there have been some flaws as wells. Rip offs, backstabber, some legal issues, unwanted avoidable physical confrontations with PC cunts in several occasions, some gigs banned, but I guess that is part of the fun.
No drugs for me, they are the economical backbone of people I tend to often complain about in my work and are often sold on the streets by morons. Personally, I love to be always in control and I like to be blamed of every mischief I am responsible for, not contributing to be a burden to the health/social system I pay taxes for eheh
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 09, 2016, 05:04:32 PM
Original opening question was how industrial changed our reality, art, culture and people. It could be also thought that perhaps question was needed to be simple enough without any need to remind that industrial isn't merely something that is given, but one often actively shapes it by involvement. It's been said by several people, how dull it is that industrial people look the same, listen the same, read same books, watch same movies, are interested in same fringe cultures, etc. I don't think it is actually true, but looked from distance - that's what it looks like.
totally agree on this
Has industrial music influenced me to work for free in an old Cable layer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_layer) or would I be there regardless.
I think it must have nudged me in that direction. Working and moving around in an enviroment that I find aesthetically enjoyable is a no brainer.
Couple of years ago I decided there is good money to be made in steel, its all intersting stuff and I have given Fe offerings that pleases it. I have a few weeks of freelabour I have to perform but after that its time to make bread with a subject matter that has at times been practically a fetish.( I have not wanked with rebar cockrings but a ton of mental energy has been dedicated to the matter)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee29/vulpesprod/laiva_zpsweyhwy3o.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/vulpesprod/media/laiva_zpsweyhwy3o.jpg.html)
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee29/vulpesprod/laiva%202_zpsdwppzryk.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/vulpesprod/media/laiva%202_zpsdwppzryk.jpg.html)
I cut a hole for a door and made a railing boom, stickwelding and plascmacutting. tons of fun
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee29/vulpesprod/laiva%204_zpsn1kjibgi.jpg) (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/vulpesprod/media/laiva%204_zpsn1kjibgi.jpg.html)
heavy ambience of the engineroom
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee29/vulpesprod/th_laiva%203_zpsanrgbdaa.mp4) (http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee29/vulpesprod/laiva%203_zpsanrgbdaa.mp4)
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 10, 2016, 03:50:16 AM
As for politics, fuck politics. As for drugs, they're alright, some of them. As for the real world, fuck the real world.
It (or something like that) could be used as nice motto for my t-shirt (and not only for that) :)
Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on May 09, 2016, 10:29:24 PM
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 09, 2016, 10:17:31 PM
Not quite as bad a HongKongGoolamong though who's just a condescending prick. Maybe I'm wrong.
Cheers for that Martin, I saw Shift once and thought you were great and have releases on your label given to me by the artistes - some of whom have questions about your own character, ha!
You're welcome. I'm a terrible person but still of better character than the person who gave you a few of my releases. Providing it is who I think it is.
Depeche Mode had an interesting period from Construction Time Again to Black Celebration. I believe they chose Gareth Jones as producer for his work with Neubauten and production wise it's still a fascinating listen. A chart topping pop band who spent much time and money experimenting in top of the range studios.
Exactly. Loved 'em as a 'chap'/ young teenager, but quickly became bored of 'em after Music For the Masses, and started to delve deeper into experimental synth and, from there, noise.
It has been mentioned on this thread how 'industrial' and industrial fans are in conflict w/ the left. I would certainly feel that way myself, but I suspect it may be simply a contrarian stance, as has also been implied. However, the majority of 'industrial' fans I know seem to be liberal left types - certainly here in Ireland (where the 'scene' is quite miniscule). A lot of them are coming from the goth scene, and then there's also a small clique of 'anti-fa' harsh noise types.
As for industrial vs. real life - well, personally, it's only one facet of my life, and I have other interests. Nevertheless, it has naturally led me to at least consider some associated areas - most of which I would reject quickly enough. I do have an interest in generally rightist thought, but none in sex-magick, drug experimentation, or multiple piercings. But perhaps all that is a sign that I'm just getting on a bit!!
Decided in advance that I will absolutely not remove whatever words are to the follow. Never go back and read your own spew. Never.
I tried and failed a few times to submit some thoughts on the subject, and duly removed the more poorly considered. First, a reiteration of the previously stated: it's hard to say how the culture (and sounds) have impacted me as I essentially grew up on the shit. In the shit. So where to separate what aspect of what identity? This follows through to the present and to the future. I will concede that these thoughts are informed by a crushingly myopic ability to read a given "real world" situation. I look back at any number of things that have occurred in my life and I would shudder- if I could correctly ascertain exactly what the fuck happened.
Second, we're talking about a field of endeavor whose culture implicitly and explicitly, sometimes didactically, rejects even itself, re- "That is why we reject it." At various junctures, I have probably made very clear (if possibly counter-productive) decisions to separate myself from any sense of the culture, because to formally acknowledge that I am actively "participating" (in anything beyond a bunch of sounds) goes against some very critical aspects of the initial (and possibly enduring) attraction. The idea of there existing another person who might look, think or act like me is in many ways disturbing; the instant any (micro) culture threatens to foist such a person upon me I run like hell. Or to say, I (sometimes fantasize that I) want to participate in an idealized self-destructive mutually self-hating culture. Well, maybe. Giving my own idealizations and fantasies the benefit of the doubt, there are several ironies and contradictions in play, but save at this very moment of typing poorly considered shit onto a screen I'm hardly going to dwell on such matters. Would much rather waste my time trying to establish a set of doomed-to-fail criteria that might define how to systematically approach/evaluate/differentiate this shit strictly as a listener, re- something at some remove from "Sounds like Merzbow".
Merzbow is a good referent when reviewing GEWALTMONOPOL's I think very relevant words regarding legacy. With reference to Akita's mindboggling Merztribution... contribmerztion... contribumerz... by which the serious listener could spend a lifetime indulging in the first two decades alone, to the exclusion of all other soundperv-veyors on the planet... it is frankly laughable to bother to consider whether he is "resting on his laurels" or some such. Under such circumstances, how could the serious listener possibly give a fuck? "Hey guys, I heard that Shakespeare's unpublished works from his later years were utter toss!" Dethrone the Merz or shutteth thy hole. To qualify slightly: as a listener, I'm perfectly happy to ignore a very favored soundperv-veyor for years on end, coming back every once in a while, with only academic interest in the when or where, and possibly having my mind blown (or not). It is in fact a source of great pleasure to expose myself to a great artist in reverse chronology. In this sense I think I can understand very much where GEWALTMONOPOL and any other (apparently) forward-looking person is coming from. I've only lately started getting into the catalogs of some of the more recent crop of decidedly unrestful pe heroes, mostly in reverse chronology, and I am consistently impressed with the quality (in any chronology). Brave new waves are clearly being made. But for me, at the moment, several of them are moving in the opposite direction (for a given value of "opposite").
Muttering to himself: do not read it over. Submit. Now. You wanker!
Jesus! All I did was say why I think Consumer Electronics is shit. I'm not ordering anyone not to like the poor baby. OK, I did call HongKongGoolagong a cunt but we've settled that somewhat amicably in private.
And for the record, Unrest has no intention of overthrowing Shakespeare. Not even in the face of industrial dispute.
To put it country simple: the power of industrial music to change our reality is probably not limited to what is supposedly going on in the here and now.
I am in complete agreement with you there, chief. Nothing probable about it.
Hm, many interesting, thoughtful and serious posts here. But maybe too less which relate to original questions -
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on May 06, 2016, 11:11:22 AM
How do you think, has industrial music (noise, pe, postindustrial etc.) changed our reality, art, culture and people? I don't mean mainstream, only the micro world in which we are living. If so, what exactly?
I must admit, I have to put some thoughts together first for myself and struggle with my not so good English, but then I will try to give my impression and opinion.
Everything I'm interested in, invest time into, sacrifice for, strive for, everything ties back into this polestar that my life revolves around that is an exploration and study of the beyond. Noise/PE has influenced me just as EVERYTHING does between the interaction of microcosm/macrocosm in the human psyche , I never pursued music on a trivial social basis or even in a social context of any kind (outside of trading, posting on forums occasionally, going to concerts) as NO ONE I know is into noise or industrial or other underground genres period. Having said that, noise/pe lured me into its waiting arms with it aesthetically and audibly revolving around several of my already existing fetishes/obsessions such as transcending thresholds and limitations, extreme/deviant sexuality, death, and chaos. Much like how I was drawn to black metal as a kid, the art both through visual and audio manifestation reflected and fed my already current obsessions. In many instances it REALLY fed them....I'm sure many will laugh at me for this but admittedly when I was younger I can definitely say that my fascination with prostitutes and violent sexuality was fed and fostered by listening to Taint at a ripe age and undoubtedly influenced my sexual behavior both consciously and unconciously. Did I pursue these things because of my interest in noise? No. It certainly was a factor in some sense though.
Regardless, for me art in all forms reflects deep underlying truths about the reality of existence, and something as powerful as that will influence your perception, your internalization of information, and your experience of reality as a whole whether you choose to recognize it or not, and in ways that are both obvious and at their utmost subtle.
To say that people identify with the music in any way in a subcultural context to me is absurd. I had a friend at one point asking if members of a particular band were as crazy in real life as they were rumored to be. To me that triggered a reflection of my own life....where I was obviously never striving to fulfill a subculture or counter culture based image in order to satiate my human existential/identity crisis but instead I was always indulging and chasing after my obsessions, usually at GREAT risk to my personal life, my finances, my freedom, my personal safety, my mental stability....a lot that I was willing to sacrifice in order to experience or explore at all costs. Music, art, industrial kind of reminds me of this....this is why there is no drug culture or a lot of the other usual tropes with PE/NOISE as it seems to not only transcend this normal cultural traits/traditions in a lot of ways...despite the fact that PE has cliches like any counter culture I'm aware.
*Edited to try and make my rambling nonsense slightly more coherent.
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on May 13, 2016, 06:35:54 PM
I am in complete agreement with you there, chief. Nothing probable about it.
Don't suppose that means we'll be spared further wingeing about a bunch of geezers failing to live up to standards set 35 years ago?
ps don't mind me, I'm just a tad disappointed to learn that Unrest has no intention of taking on Shakespeare. "To be or not to be
JUST LIKE A CUNT... no that is not a fucking question!" (Just thought I'd give it the old college try there...)
I don't think it's changed very much for me personally. Listening to noise has helped develop my ear to hearing/appreciating the sound world that shapes our world. I'd agree with kettu that the appreciation for certain sounds makes certain kinds of work seem extremely appealing (such as cable layer, dock work etc) but again I don't know if I could attribute that specificly to industrial, as I think I've always been interested in work that is both psychically and emotionally challenging. My appreciation for sound world began with a high school interest in photography and a desire to fragment the enviorment to make my reality more abstract.
That said I've never had any specific interest in belonging to a clique or cultural stereotype. Even when I was a young skateboarder the absurdity of covering shit in patches or cutting my hair in some goofy fashion never appealed to me. I think I'm drawn towards acts when the individual is simply representing themselves or something more environmental (ex. Hands To, Rudolf E.ber, Jaako Vanhala, Con-Dom etc) than I am to so called wp, serial killers and sexual abuse. I appreciate it in its historical context of com org (most of which was pretty funny) etc and greatly enjoy that stuff but couldn't be more bored with contemporary uses of the same themes.
I think like every form of music there is to many people that dive in head first and adopt the whole word as bond. I've noticed this especially on fourms, and I personally would like to see a little bit more free thinking individualism than the same old "transgressive" themes and another bad xerox zine dedicated to xxx themes
with lame collage art that hasn't changed in 30 years.
Well i became a machinist, so there's that...
Well I grew up in the ignorant depressing deep south full of rednecks. I resented and hated the mulleted Camaro jockeys that I was sure to join when I crossed through adolescence. When I found Punk Rock I thought I was home. Here was a place for losers, misfits and nerds like me. Except after a while I realized, I liked the people, but the music was boring and conservative.
One year I saw a punk rock band from San Francisco, "Flipper". Later I also saw this funny TV show called Night Flight.
Flipper was the only interesting punk act I ever saw. They weren't trying to be macho, aggressive or political. They just spewed nihilism and heavy weirdness.
Night Flight was a 4 hour long mini MTV which played on the USA network. They introduced me to "New Wave Theatre" and Some Bizarre. This was where I found out about Einsturzende Neubauten, Cabaret Voltaire, Skinny Puppy, Throbbing Gristle, Killer Pussy etc.
Oh, so there is a scene that is doing something besides spiking the hair and buying fancy leather.
At some point there was a punk rock record store called "Toxic Shock" which opened in my hometown, New Orleans. They started out west someplace, and this was their expansion into the southeast. Lord knows why. They were a goner in a couple years. However the owner of that shop introduced me to all kinds of aberrant bullshit. Swans, Nurse With Wound, DAF, and some funny guys from SF, Negativland.
This all influences my life in a lot of ways.
Primarily it convinced me that making music which did not 'rock' and was not 'dancey' was valid. That I did not have to buy into a genre to play music. A lot of people my age or older seem to say the same thing about the "Sex Pistols" or "Ramones" in that regard. But they were still rock and roll bands. Playing guitars, basses and drums. With fucking guitar solos.
Hearing early industrial, experimental and electronic acts that eschewed traditional 'songs' and instruments gave me courage to think the silly stuff I did with tape dubbing and a few cheap instruments could be valid.
There are a few recurring threads in this discussion I don't agree with.
I do not think that Industrial is inherently misanthropic. Most people I have met in the sparse industrial scene are pretty nice. Sure a lot of them are on drugs and some can be prima donnas. But overall they are people who are bookread, have their act somewhat together, and are conversational.
I also don't get the whole left vs right bullshit. In my experience the Industrial scene, whether it was tape traders, clubs like House of Usher, or bands in general are apolitical. This has allowed a lot of people to go off in a lefty direction as bands like Test Dept, Babyland and arguably SKinny Puppy. Or to grow a quasi-fascist scene as it seems that a lot of the neo-martialist acts have.
Frankly I think the baby-fascists are just misinterpreting Laibach and other similar acts.
Personally I think the left right paradigm is stupid. I don't think being liberal about everything is smart, or being conservative about everything is clever either. Overly simplistic.
Quote from: theotherjohn on May 07, 2016, 03:06:07 PM
The irony of course is that industrialism (i.e. the non-music side) as a concept is inherently structured with protocols.
To the point...
Quote from: calaverasgrande on June 01, 2016, 07:22:35 AM
I also don't get the whole left vs right bullshit. In my experience the Industrial scene, whether it was tape traders, clubs like House of Usher, or bands in general are apolitical.
Having any world view mustn't be politics declaration. I think that the largest problem in modern art (including industrial music) ist its void of ideology, lack of views in any case, lack of rebellion... If there isn't any rebellion in artist's mind, how we may expect something interesting in music? Should we satisfied to hedonistic, fetish sound of noise only? It isn't enough for me and I demand much more than this fetish..
In my quest to flog infinite iterations of the same shit, one such iteration will say that the exercise of politics would have to fall within the scope of fetish- even (and especially) in its most extreme indulgences. So my read of your wish is for something beyond the easily dismissed "harmless fetish". The fetish of your heart's desire is the one for which harm is (ever) clear and (ever) present. This may be contrasted with the "normal" course of "real life", for which harm is (ever) present but quite - not unconsciously - obscured (reduced, say, to a community of persons with so-called "special interests").
Damn. And mama always said I was special...
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 01, 2016, 11:43:19 AM
Having any world view mustn't be politics declaration. I think that the largest problem in modern art (including industrial music) ist its void of ideology, lack of views in any case, lack of rebellion... If there isn't any rebellion in artist's mind, how we may expect something interesting in music? Should we satisfied to hedonistic, fetish sound of noise only? It isn't enough for me and I demand much more than this fetish..
I do appreciate artists that have an agenda. I think one of the worst things about art, music, writing etc is an utter lack of attempt to communicate, and in cases where communication is not a goal, lacking even an artistic belief or rigorousness.
In the noise scene I see this manifest as a lot of directionless knob twisting. Compared to acts I recall seeing in the 80's and 90's that could inspire fear, revulsion or feelings of transgression in even the most jaded crowd.
However, I find it very mundane when someone comes at me with a top to bottom Left Wing or Right Wing ideology. This displays an inability to think critically or to think independently. One of the things that drew me into Industrial was that it ridiculed doctrinaire rigid thinking.
Many artists have mined to great effect the humor to be found in juxtaposing left and right signifiers.
Unfortunately, it seems that when removed by a decade or two, audiences do not appreciate the irony.