Because I previously had these items for sale on Discogs I received an automated message this morning claiming the following items where no longer permitted from sale on the site:
https://www.discogs.com/Deathkey-Doctrine-Of-Intolerant-Hatred/master/299287
https://www.discogs.com/Grey-Wolves-Division/master/293334
My first inclination was that they are purging 'extremist' releases from their database on the back of the Orlando shooting; I have no way to verify this though.
Does Anyone know what prompted the bans this time?
There is a Massive Ban going on, some NSBM Stuff is banned, too.
Streicher banned too.
https://www.discogs.com/Streicher-Annihilism/release/6528516
Quote from: Goat93 on June 14, 2016, 04:04:35 PM
There is a Massive Ban going on, some NSBM Stuff is banned, too.
All this petty censorship is quite infuriating but since they can set their own terms with impunity I suppose we have no option but to tolerate it.
Ebay will probably become the go to place for such items in the future; until such time as when some SJW cuck tries to get them banned there too.
Quote from: Olegh Kolyada on June 14, 2016, 05:34:15 PM
Streicher banned too.
https://www.discogs.com/Streicher-Annihilism/release/6528516
Shit, I was was just looking at Streicher stuff on there yesterday.
Bandcamp is still OK with that.
https://oldcaptain.bandcamp.com/album/streicher-annihilism
Who decides what will be banned or not ? Is it based on users' reports or someone from their stuff -who think he knows- does it on his own ? Stupid in any way ! So you can post a message [?] under the release telling "For sale, PM me" but you can't sell it via their sales' platform ?
Not to mention, that the database is built by users, so when something is build by users, based on users and for users, how do you explain censorship ? From what i see industrial / noise / PE / BM fans are very active there, releases from these genres usually are in the top-10 of expensive sales. I bet that releases from these genres have big percentage of total sales too. Ban BM releases, they promote satanism. Ban PE, it promotes violence. Ban noise, it's noise. Ban industrial, the root of evil. Ban rock, they are junkies. Ban ban ban !
Curious about what Discogs stuff is thinking. "We destroy fascism, nazism, extremism" ? Well, keep dreaming PC crusaders.
There is a Forum for the Discussions, after all the Discogs Stuff decided and i guess the Problem lays in the "Middleman" Seller Status of this Place. Its actualy like Ebay, who can sued for making a Transaction possbile for Illegal Stuff. Its easier to claim a Political Crusade, but in the End, its the fear of the Problems they get. And Discogs have some new rules to follow, who are in the same direction, like this new VAT'S System ect.
So, would you hold up Freedom of Speech if you have something to loose with Music you don't even know by yourself?
Quote from: Theodore on June 14, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
Curious about what Discogs stuff is thinking. "We destroy fascism, nazism, extremism" ? Well, keep dreaming PC crusaders.
I think (or hope) it's more to do with PR than an actual moral agenda. I mean, the last thing a company wants is to be seen promoting what is seen as hate speech, especially in this extremely tense moral climate we live in. Obviously, its bullshit, trying to censor any form of art is retarded and never works, but I think that they are really just looking to distance themselves from racism or whatever, because the PC crusaders, as you put it, would come down harder than ever.
get a life
Quote from: Theodore on June 14, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
Who decides what will be banned or not ? Is it based on users' reports or someone from their stuff -who think he knows- does it on his own ?
It's users reporting as far as I can tell. Someone reports said release and they investigate and slap a ban of future sales.
I doubt they have a program running or a person going through releases with flagged words like "nigger", "rape" or "antisemite" for example as there is plenty of records which you can still sell / buy that are more than worthy of being banned.
Quote from: Theodore on June 14, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
Not to mention, that the database is built by users, so when something is build by users, based on users and for users, how do you explain censorship ?
Well I assume the owners can do pretty much want they want to be fair. Their forum/database. Their rules. Lets say Mikko wakes up tomorrow and decides any user types the phrase "black metal ist krieg" is banned from forum or any user with a isp coming from France is banned. Is there anything anyone can do? No. His forum. His rules. Same applies to Discogs.
Quote from: Theodore on June 14, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
From what i see industrial / noise / PE / BM fans are very active there, releases from these genres usually are in the top-10 of expensive sales. I bet that releases from these genres have big percentage of total sales too.
Nope. Not even close. You have your Mayhem and Burzums knocking in big figures....a couple of grand down to 300-400 euros with just over 300,000 black metal releases for sale. There is 100s if not thousands of records for sale / sold that go for 3000-4000 among professional sellers and collectors on the site. Also at the moment just counting house (1 branch of dance music) releases there is just shy of 3 million. Thats the same as the 4 main metal sub genres added together. Lob all metal, industrial and noise together and you just pass the house music section. Add in techno, leftfield, electronica and goodbye metallers you're not even half of our database....
I sold the copy of "Day of the Rope" by Organized Resistance on Discogs today. I was surprised when they still allowed it to be sold.
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 14, 2016, 08:56:56 PM
I sold the copy of "Day of the Rope" by Organized Resistance on Discogs today. I was surprised when they still allowed it to be sold.
It was me who purchased that from you, lol! Was surprised to see it was still for sale; thought I'd grab that before the purge caught up with it - a classic! :D
Quote from: Duality on June 14, 2016, 07:14:36 PM
I think (or hope) it's more to do with PR than an actual moral agenda.
That's even worse !? I don't know really what's worse of those two. Having / setting that agenda cause of your beliefs / strategy or following it cause of PR and fear ?
About legal issues, grey area indeed. What's legal here is illegal elsewhere or could be illegal here too in the future and the opposite. No company can follow these changes, expect some very common laws like about child pornography's one.
Yes, obviously the owners can do however they want, but how they explain their decisions to the users their site is based on ? Same way, they will steal the database people build and will ask users to pay in order to have access. Sure they can, legaly, but what about morality they care so much for ?
I find it quite good that stuff gets banned from discogs. Of course it is convenient method, but this had a lot negative effects for underground. I don't advocate that things should be difficult, but still... it is quite odd situation in history when one gigantic marketplace/platform dominates over everything. It creates false ideas of exaggerated value. At the same time also utmost decrease of value. So many seems to shift from having distro list, website or any sort of identity, just to be one of countless merchants of discogs. Or trading changed to everybody being seller.
I'm pretty sure that for a lot of items, this won't mean that they will be way harder to get. Perhaps it will return that many albums would be priced more realistic and sold with classified ads etc. I wouldn't mind that I could get some release I missed, for realistic price instead of only seeing dealers who wait for one fool who pays 5 times more than item is worth. Only because it's listed at platform that reaches all music consumers of world, instead classified ad at forum (for example).
There is no shortage of places to deal outrageous music. You got tons of labels dealing with potentially problematic materials and lots of closed social media groups focused on trading & selling & buying records you can't publicly access. One could guess that few years of discogs open policy was just anomaly in situation.
Just some weeks ago, major players of internet and European union agreed on suppressing "hate speech". According to deal, all the places, including facebook, youtube, microsoft, etc. agreed to investigate and deal with every report of misuse within 24h and delete content etc. Meaning wrong kind of content posted on youtube. Hateful stuff at facebook. etc. I would not be surprised if suddenly we'll start to see certain types of power electronics disappear from such services. What can you do? Cry for free speech? Fuck that.
Some material what has been banned is clearly just misunderstanding. Others are totally correct choices if one is really aiming to ban "hateful music".
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 14, 2016, 09:13:52 PMWhat can you do? Cry for free speech? Fuck that.
exactly.
some stuff gets banned on discogs.
who gives a shit.
Quote from: aububs on June 14, 2016, 09:47:20 PM
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 14, 2016, 09:13:52 PMWhat can you do? Cry for free speech? Fuck that.
exactly.
some stuff gets banned on discogs.
who gives a shit.
Can't really argue with this logic... Suppose I've become too accustomed to convenience.
Still, it's frustrating that these crybabies continue to get their way, for whatever reason.
It's a business, first and foremost, not a service. Protecting their interests. Avoiding potential hassles, which take time and energy, which costs money and resources. Not all that difficult to understand. If it squeezes your testies that much, don't use it. Take a stand.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 14, 2016, 10:35:38 PM
It's a business, first and foremost, not a service. Protecting their interests. Avoiding potential hassles, which take time and energy, which costs money and resources. Not all that difficult to understand.
No, it isn't hard at all. My original point though, was to find if there was a impetus for these recent bans; after all they've been quite willing to allow transactions of 'questionable material' to take place even since the XE & clandestine blaze bans a while back.
It just seems to me that some pressure is being applied from somewhere, and was basically trying to find out if anyone knew anything of it.
Though, it now seems that it's probably just a case of Lizzy Veldon and her legion of offendable trannies doing what they do best...
Time for set up a new method for trade/sale :) I am happy that it happened!
Time to say goodbye to Discogs....this is a great example of concentrated stupidity and prejudice which is criticized by the whole industrial culture since the late 70's.
Quote from: Guldur on June 14, 2016, 11:28:57 PM
Time to say goodbye to Discogs....this is a great example of concentrated stupidity and prejudice which is criticized by the whole industrial culture since the late 70's.
Yeah!! Share this opinion! There is only need creating something instead of that :)
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 14, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
I find it quite good that stuff gets banned from discogs.
This.
80% of the time I usually just set up all my transactions on discogs and then just pay directly through paypal to bypass their shit eatting fees anyway. There are methods and loopholes around everything.
deal directly with seller, send cash.
Quote from: Zeno Marx on June 14, 2016, 10:35:38 PM
It's a business, first and foremost, not a service. Protecting their interests. Avoiding potential hassles, which take time and energy, which costs money and resources. Not all that difficult to understand. If it squeezes your testies that much, don't use it. Take a stand.
When something is more or less monopolized by a single business (discogs, facebook), this distinction becomes largely irrelevant. Also, few people seriously entertain the view that private companies can do what they please. If Discogs banned the sale of homosexual/muslim/whatever artists, the argument that they wanted to avoid potential hassles would silence exactly zero of their critics, so there is no reason for offended industrial fans to be silent either, if they dislike what the company is doing. I think one of the reasons why idiots are winning is that non-idiots are refusing to act like idiots, but keep on pretending that there are common sense principles to which most people adhere. There may have been for a brief period, or in some transcendental domain of Rationality & Wisdom, but in the present, real world of politics and culture, there are none. Stupidity and exaggeration are possibly better than violence?
That being said, I think FreakAnimalFinland's assessment of the Discogs situation is spot on. I already found mint copies of "Remember" and a couple of classic tapes I wanted. For new stuff, I'm fine with flyers, zines and tape trading, if necessary.
I assume the bans are because of complaints from the same trolls that plagued the troniks forum calling for BU and Deathkey boycotts, or those responsible for the slimelight DIJ protest. I doubt many normal discogs users stumble upon noise, industrial or pe type stuff. The problem is within our own "scene".
The ironic thing is that they allow the sale of NIN album with songs like Hurt or stuff by M. Manson which probably inspired far more impressionable young people to self harm and that you can easily buy skrewdriver records or copies of Body Counts cop killer. I think that if it matters to a discogs user, and they want to voice an opinion we need to figure out a way to contact the moderators or discogs directly and articulate intelligently why this stuff shouldn't be banned.
I am no great supporter of a lot of nsbm, sexism or whatever. But acts artist aren't being fairly targeted and artistic expression should be respected even if the opinion is unpopular.
They should just make some filters for naziphobic users and similar wimps who can't dealt with extreme themes and not to ban all people to buy that kind of releases. I just wanted to purchase Con-Dom - All In Good Faith and fuck damn discogs assholes! They should ban whores like Miley Cyrus not good old extreme industrial or black metal!
Worried about this anonymously exaggeration of "fighting against fasicsm" ways wherever it may come from, banning (anti)cultural art.
No matter how graphic or offensive an artistic expression is, it shouldn't be allowed to be mindlessly treated without giving the perspective of doing it.
Sometimes, it's the human mind trying to find alibis on art just to find "excuses" and "blames" for executing crimes not just the media, according to past and present atrocities that happened and happening all the time, not referring only to the Orlando incident.
What should be next, nazisploitation or any exploititive-themed movies?
I think if enough of the people upset about this were to take equal action and collectively write to discogs with their counter argument and complaint you may see some kind of new dimension to these actions develop.
Bottom feeding record nerds and music fans on all sides of the political spectrum can fight among each other about whose voice is most representing a worrying shift in whatever societal direction, but we're nothing but demographics to the major websites and services that allow us to articulate and circulate our cultures. Right now, PC left brigade are shouting the loudest and waving their pound notes about more furiously, so either compete on that level or find alternatives, cos whining about other people's whining doesn't seem to be helping.
Quote from: Duncan on June 15, 2016, 12:55:34 PM
... whining about other people's whining doesn't seem to be helping.
No, but you can't blame people for venting a bit of spleen.
This is true. Guess I'm just interested to see what, if any, of that turns into practical forward movement.
Just so everyone understands the priorities at stake, the last readily obtainable comment from discogs proper dates back at least 9 months, referencing comments some months earlier via someone with (the typically non-binding handle of) "joshm1979". (google it/him/her) The individual in question appears to be a techie with no interest in / knowledge of the broader legal repercussions - but I would wager is an accurate representation of discogs proper. You say amateur hour I say the world in general. None of these people has a clue but a five minute legal "consultation" (possibly over a couple of buds) would probably make an instant convert out of even the most retarded joshm1979.
I read some older threads on the topic on the Discogs marketplace forum, and found claims that after each shooting spree in the US they ban some more or less random albums with controversial content. That is, provided it doesn't sell too well (https://www.discogs.com/sell/list?artist_id=175037&ev=ab), or is popular among the wrong groups.
Considering certain aspects of the latest tomfoolery in the US, one would have thought they might have had a look at, say, the dancehall scene.
https://www.discogs.com/Mega-Banton-Shot-Batty-Boy-/release/5692789
https://www.discogs.com/TOK-Chi-Chi-Man/master/239944
https://www.discogs.com/Red-Dragon-Batty-Boy-Fi-Die/release/3342405
To "contextualize": http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/06/jamaica-music-anti-gay-dancehall-homophobia
"When all the factors were taken into account simultaneously, the two that were most reliable were a preference for dancehall music, and gender."
Obviously, I won't go on their forums and try to compensate for censorship of things I like by trying to promote censorship of things I don't like (or actually, I also like). It's still pretty goddamn retarded to block random maybe-racist industrial records in response to a virtual gaynocide, when there's plenty other music that would lie closer at hand for a bit of Indizierung .
Thanks to the thick patois, its almost impossible to decipher what the hell they are singin about. Probably helps in averting controversy, unlike having flyers with ski mask toting man super imposed onto 'SAY NO TO DEMOCRACY' text.
Quote from: F_c_O on June 16, 2016, 12:20:43 AM
Thanks to the thick patois, its almost impossible to decipher what the hell they are singin about. Probably helps in averting controversy, unlike having flyers with ski mask toting man super imposed onto 'SAY NO TO DEMOCRACY' text.
Obviously, it's virtually unintelligible. However, this is not some obscure or unknown detail from the outskirts of the underground; the whole controversy has been ongoing for years. A random sample of articles discussing the subject:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/lesterfeder/jamaican-dancehall-star-sizzla-banned-from-music-festival-fo?utm_term=.js6G6E7vj#.pxNZEXPb8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batty_boy
https://www.queerty.com/dancehall-homophobe-beenie-man-calls-gays-child-molesters-in-advocate-apology-20120801
I love these guys. And so does Discogs. ;D
They have already banned certain dancehall records for their content, such as Buju Banton "Boom Bye Bye". It might seem like noise, metal and skinhead releases are the only thing getting banned but more likely they are simply the ones being noticed by ourselves and our surrounding peers because little to none of our peers are selling/buying dancehall reggae 12"s.