I am sorry if this is a topic already covered elsewhere.
Yesterday I was checking tape dubs after work and I was wondering why people and distros still prefer tapes (hiss, always-almost perfect dub, ferric or at best chrome) over CDr. We all know CDr sucks as a format but in the 90's people were running away from the analog format even if it was still cheaper to produce and put out. Moreover the CDr is unlikely to have seconds cut off because either something happened or because pro services are unreliable (but only rarely I must admit).
What are your thoughts?
Tape seems to have a warmth similar to vinyl. Also there is a beauty in a format that degrades with time, I guess. It is somewhat easier to ship. A working cassette will work on any working cassette player, with CD there could be a risk (I think). Plus something about them feels real and different, maybe nostalgia, maybe being disconnected to some extent from the digital. Plus if you're making noise music, I'm not really sure that a bit of background hiss, or a problem with your heads is really enough of an issue to warrant using new technology. Perhaps it's just a conscious or sub-conscious "fuck you" to modernity and the mainstream, which has pretty much left both formats behind for mp3 anyway. I also just thought that perhaps cassettes have that innate ability to be recorded over multiple times but seem to contain remnants of the old, which is kind of cool I guess and ties into that degradation thing. I think the preference is driven by the scene/market, there aren't many pop stars emphatically pushing their tapes.
In regards to the few seconds shaved off and lack of pro services, I'm not sure how much of a concern/issue that is for artists that choose the format. Is this something you've experienced? Have you found a decent pro service for cassettes? I might be looking for one's in Australia. At the moment I just have a portable recorder and a bigger dual one. They both bring their own nuances and sound to the recordings, analogue feels closer to the sound.
Two I know, but they are in Europe unfortunately or you. It had happened to me, around 20sec on the B side. No big deal but still quite annoying at least at first. I like tapes though. I usually dub them at home having two pretty nice deck that are practically new. Unless you really do not have time or are working on a massive tape set/box, homedubbing is the way to go I guess.
For me it is simply the fact that tape looks much better, i find it much nicer to handle tapes, it takes actual effort to get your stuff onto tapes and it does sound bit better to me.
cd-rs simply look and feel cheap, like some five minute thing you didnt bother to put that much effort into anyways which always creeps into my perception of the format. Didnt you respect your own material enough to bother to go through the few extra hoops and expenses to get it dubbed or pressed onto real cd or something? Are you serious about this or is this just a one time joke?
I've got CDRs from 2 years ago that won't play and tapes from 1985 that still sound great. Disc rot, botched burns, general cheapness.... I've got shitty dubbed tapes too but that's rare.
Plus as mentioned above CDRs usually look like shit.
You have a point. CDR feel pretty rushed and cheap.
But is it only a psychological factor? Like yesterday I was going through slaughter prods' CDR thinking about how perception of the format have changed...at the time many were switching gladly to digital, away from mostly home made tapes (that actually was a mistake, tape sounded better for the music we made).
About putting enough effort...you are right. Tapes at least dictate and ask for your time and effort, it is a more work of love thing.
Quote from: Analogan Smrt on October 28, 2016, 03:15:58 PM
Two I know, but they are in Europe unfortunately or you. It had happened to me, around 20sec on the B side. No big deal but still quite annoying at least at first. I like tapes though. I usually dub them at home having two pretty nice deck that are practically new. Unless you really do not have time or are working on a massive tape set/box, homedubbing is the way to go I guess.
You had audio's duration close to tape's duration and that cut-off was at the end ? Then there is speed difference between your decks or if you were recording from digital source your deck runs faster. Anyway, to the topic ... Maybe we are sadomaso haha. No man, i can discuss any other format but not CD-r ! I don't trust them. I have old CD-r, data and music, rarely used, if ever, that look perfect and they don't play ! When rarely happens to buy a CD-r nowdays the first and only play i give them is to rip them, cause i don't trust them they will play tomorrow. And i consider them as buying digital files with the difference that CD-r i can sell it.
Shitty dubs can happen. But tape is probably the most durable format.
Quote from: Theodore on October 28, 2016, 04:14:54 PM
Quote from: Analogan Smrt on October 28, 2016, 03:15:58 PM
Two I know, but they are in Europe unfortunately or you. It had happened to me, around 20sec on the B side. No big deal but still quite annoying at least at first. I like tapes though. I usually dub them at home having two pretty nice deck that are practically new. Unless you really do not have time or are working on a massive tape set/box, homedubbing is the way to go I guess.
You had audio's duration close to tape's duration and that cut-off was at the end ? Then there is speed difference between your decks or if you were recording from digital source your deck runs faster. Anyway, to the topic ... Maybe we are sadomaso haha. No man, i can discuss any other format but not CD-r ! I don't trust them. I have old CD-r, data and music, rarely used, if ever, that look perfect and they don't play ! When rarely happens to buy a CD-r nowdays the first and only play i give them is to rip them, cause i don't trust them they will play tomorrow. And i consider them as buying digital files with the difference that CD-r i can sell it.
Shitty dubs can happen. But tape is probably the most durable format.
Could be. Need to check next time. Thanks for the tip. Anyway, 10/20 sec less is not a big deal especially if we are talking about longer track with long fade out...back in topic, badly dubbed tapes are actually a rarity as you said...it is pretty hard to badly dub one tape...it is a matter of putting effort...recycled tapes are another matter altogether.
A similar discussion happened here : http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=6713.0
Edit : And here : http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=3929.0
Quote from: Theodore on October 28, 2016, 04:14:54 PM
When rarely happens to buy a CD-r nowdays the first and only play i give them is to rip them, cause i don't trust them they will play tomorrow. And i consider them as buying digital files with the difference that CD-r i can sell it.Shitty dubs can happen. But tape is probably the most durable format.
This. I completely avoid CD-R's for the most part, unless absolutely necessary. Any format that requires me to immediately make copies of whatever I buy due to how quickly it deteriorates is a joke....the life of a CD-R is so short, especially if you play the disc a lot. I've recently been listening to a lot of these obscure Mexican black metal bands and all their releases on CD-R's so as soon as I pick up an album I immediately rip it and make a temporary CD-R so I don't wear out the original copy.
As many people have pointed out before, with analog formats there is a deterioration but the process adds a certain type of quality to the sound....especially certain types of music. I love listening to certain albums when the tape or the vinyl is worn out and played to hell....
Tape maybe isn't the most durable format in my opinion, that's CD's definitely since they pretty much last forever or at least in the climate I currently live in (no CD rot or anything).
There was an excellent SI article I remember that interviewed artists as to why they preferred or liked the tape cassette format, experimenting with splicing/reels, the potentials of sound manipulation with the format etc. and it was one of the most interesting zine reads I've ever seen.
Wear out a CD/CDr? Not possible insofar as # of playbacks. What are you people using to play them? An angle grinder?
I think the only noise CD-r I've ever had 'degrade' was one packaged floating in a bag of water. Maybe there's a problem in humid/hot countries? You keeping them on your windowsill?
I've never had a CD degrade on me at all, but I've had multiple burnt CD-R's stop playing or stop functioning and they were stored with care and played in a high quality CD player etc. etc. Typically they were only CD-R's that I played repeatedly though.
Well, maybe i sounded too much against CD-r earlier, more than i should be or really am. Meaning that yes, vast majority of the CD-r i have, they still play. But i have lost trust in them, seeing enough CD-r given 2-3 plays, then stored in their case in the closet, when i come back to them years later they look perfect but they can't be read. Disc is spinning and spinning, no recognized, in any machine. Don't know why. And when this happens, you loose it all ! Same with HDDs, i had just one died on me, just once, but lost it all. I lost trust in them, so since then i have a mirror back-up HDD. As Fluid Fetish wrote, anything that requires me to create a copy cause i may loose it anytime without warning, without reason ... well, i try to avoid it. That requirement comes ofcource of my lack of trust, but that's it anyway. HDD i can't avoid, CD-r i can ! I copy / rip stuff but when i want to and for reasons of "easy" access everywhere. I don't like doing it cause i have to or cause of my "paranoia" if you think so.
Quote from: Fluid Fetish on October 29, 2016, 01:18:24 AMTypically they were only CD-R's that I played repeatedly though.
in scientific terms, they call that: coincidence
Quote from: Zeno Marx on October 29, 2016, 02:41:52 AM
Quote from: Fluid Fetish on October 29, 2016, 01:18:24 AMTypically they were only CD-R's that I played repeatedly though.
in scientific terms, they call that: coincidence
Odd that coincidentally then none of my regular CD's have suddenly stopped working like some of the CD-R's....but even those were the exception, most of CD-R's I have held out. Ultimately I do not care about formats and will listen to music any way I can...
Cdr suck! Certainly the worst format ever.
Is there a correalation between the length of a track and the propensity to skip on a cdr?
It might be due to my old stereo, but I get the feeling that the cdrs I´ve had with problems have more often than not been ones with one long track on them.
Tapes are of course nice!
When I've burned masterfiles onto cdrs I've always had to make it one long track instead of several separate tracks, so it's been the opposite for me.
Nothing against buying a cdr for 3€ though, just that no artists I follow release cdrs anymore.
Cdr's that have fucked up? I've had vinyl albums that have scratched and warped and cassettes that have snagged and snapped. Spooky, eh readers?
Word
There's a lot of shit that can go wrong with CD/CDrs and the process of burning and handling them. No argument. They're a flawed medium. Onward...
Before it was common to file share and torrent, I did quite a bit of trading for both data CDrs and audio CDrs. I'll take a stab and guess I have maybe 250. Those are all 10-15 years old now and have seen lots of use. I probably have another 100 audio CDrs that I burned for road trips, travel, and whatnot. Never had a single problem with any of them. They've played in every car and stereo. Never lost any data, either. Writing on them. Stickers on them. Mailed in folded up newspaper. As far as I know, they all still work.
The only time I've had consistent problems with CDrs is of the audio CDr variety. I've had consistent problems making backup copies with EAC and even Foobar's ripper, which is nowhere near as sensitive to read and sync errors. I could bitch for an hour about how so many CDr demos and limited editions were written at 1200Xs speed with some shitty software, making them impossible to back up with a perfect, exact copy. I trust the medium just fine. I don't trust the people burning, ripping, and using them...or really, how most people haphazardly approach digital media and files in general.
A lot of my CDs pre-1993 have issues. All my Slayer, Morbid Angel, Metallica and Terrorizer CDs have stopped playing in players. I've heard the term "disc rot" bandied about a lot, and that newer CDs have a "coating" that prevents this. I wouldn't put it to far to guess this same thing happens to CDRs even now? Just a guess, I'm no scientist....
Quote from: holy ghost on October 29, 2016, 10:32:36 PM
A lot of my CDs pre-1993 have issues. All my Slayer, Morbid Angel, Metallica and Terrorizer CDs have stopped playing in players. I've heard the term "disc rot" bandied about a lot, and that newer CDs have a "coating" that prevents this. I wouldn't put it to far to guess this same thing happens to CDRs even now? Just a guess, I'm no scientist....
Disc rot is real. I've found it on a couple of my oldest CDs (makes torrenting that much more necessary; active archives of original recordings before artists and labels went at their recordings with new technologies and lack of knowledge...or the asinine, dreaded urge to revise their work). It could be a lot of things why this is happening. Sony and Philips didn't likely do a whole lotta research into chemical and environmental reactions, nor into plain ol' oxidation. How does the disc react to all the printing chemicals and agents from the booklets? How does the disc react to various climates and exposure to various pollutants (like pizza fingers or household dust)? Then you have manufacturing inconsistencies and fuckups. I'm not too sure about coatings on your average discs, but it is possible. Everyone has certainly become aware of disc rot, though. With how prevalent
planned obsolescence is everywhere in our business culture, I'd be surprised if they didn't see the potentially short life span of a CD to be a virtue of the format, thus doing not a lot to change it. There are CDR outfits that have specifically tried to fix this problem. Museums, like The Smithsonian, still use hard copies for archiving, so there was a demand for disc blanks that could last for several decades. I believe Taiyo Yuden has some that they guarantee for 100 years that were tested with light, heat, exposure to this and that, etc. They don't cost $.10 each, though.
As I understand it, the "warmth" of a cassette (and vinyl) is real. It is printed on somewhat organic matter. The wave forms are rounded, but the dynamic range is obviously much smaller than that of a CD. A CD or CDR, however, "squares off" the waves, making them "blocky", even if it is at a much higher quality. The subconscious notices, apparently. I personally release things with that sound quality in mind: "warmth" vs. clarity, depending on the content.
I only recently experienced disc rot by ordering a copy of The Portable Altamont (for $1) because I wanted the art, knowing that the disc was rotted. Other than that, I haven't experienced it. That said, I bought solely cassettes until around 2001, so maybe that's not long enough. And also, I have certainly experienced CDRs that were burned too fast or with crappy software/quality. It's pretty rare and it's usually poorly packaged, given to me, sent as a demo, etc, which doesn't rank high in my listening queue anyway.
I would be curious the difference between a replicated CD and a duplicated CD, VS. a CDR of varying types, plus that of a "studio quality" CDr, and how DVDs/DVDRs match up, for that matter.
Ultimately, it is not jewelry. I buy the work of an artist I like regardless of the format. If I don't care for the cover art, I might prefer a smaller format than vinyl, but other than that, I think these biases are largely herd-like and moronic.
I would buy more CD-R.
I have 2 currently.
1 is normal cd-r (3+ years old).
1 is pro-cd-r (7 years old).
They both sound just fine.
Also had 3rd cd-r that I gave away because I didn't like that music. It didn't have any problems sound-wise. It was few years old as well.
Some tapes from the '80, even when gain is turned up I can't make up any of the music due to magnetic degradation.
Some cd-r from 2 years ago don't play because someone doesn't knew burning at 48x isn't a good thing, so there where to much errors at the burning process.
I don't see why degradation of a medium is a bad thing. Yes it might sucks because it costed money, but music doesn't need to be available for always, forever. It shouldn't.
Quote from: monotome on November 15, 2016, 10:09:54 PM
I don't see why degradation of a medium is a bad thing. Yes it might sucks because it costed money, but music doesn't need to be available for always, forever. It shouldn't.
What an odd thing to say. Why would you not have the expectation that something should last if you've purchased it...
Quote from: monotome on November 15, 2016, 10:09:54 PM
I don't see why degradation of a medium is a bad thing. Yes it might sucks because it costed money, but music doesn't need to be available for always, forever. It shouldn't.
Next time you ll buy a reissue, you ll listen a classic album, your 80s tapes, an album you loved and still do, think about what you said above. It's not fast food, neither snapchat. Degradation of a medium after years is not bad thing indeed. We degrade too. But that's totally different than the "music doesn't need to be available for always" rule / belief. For sure not every shit deserves to live forever, also it's fine to be rare releases, old or new, to hunt, to wish to have. But why music shouldn't last forever ? Good music. Then for how long is OK ? Most of the music will "die" sooner or later, shall we kill it before its natural death ? Why, when ?
Maybe why should it be available forever ? was a more correct way to phrase it, but it doesn't make a huge difference for what I meant. The fact that we can't have everything makes me want to create. If everything is already here and stays always here, there is no need to create or hunt for something new.
I will leave it at that.
Quote from: monotome on November 18, 2016, 09:29:57 PM
If everything is already here and stays always here, there is no need to create or hunt for something new.
what?
without going into which one is better or not.. i have "real" cd's which have turned yellowish and play like shit/don't play at all, i have cdr's which don't play, i have some tapes that sound like shit nowadays.... but i also have most of them still workin, so for myself all is good as long as it works.. if there are doubts about a CDR crippling up, then theres always the option to rip the audio to computer
Quote from: pentd on November 19, 2016, 03:30:40 AM
without going into which one is better or not.. i have "real" cd's which have turned yellowish and play like shit/don't play at all, i have cdr's which don't play, i have some tapes that sound like shit nowadays.... but i also have most of them still workin, so for myself all is good as long as it works.. if there are doubts about a CDR crippling up, then theres always the option to rip the audio to computer
nothing is forever.
treasured releases will be on going
forgotten releases will be recovered and rescued
random shot will be part or both.
just look to film arceology to see the future of sounds.
I'd rather buy a mediocre tape/vinyl than a brilliant CDr..... well, not really, fuck that.