Noise gentrification?

Started by FreakAnimalFinland, October 05, 2019, 01:23:32 PM

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Commander15

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on December 30, 2023, 04:53:37 AM
Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

I'm almost impressed with that level of bullshit.

Pretty bold statements from those people, i have to say.

Stipsi

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on December 30, 2023, 04:53:37 AM
Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

I'm almost impressed with that level of bullshit.

Ok. So i have to quit noise and do something else.
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EXU

#62
Quote from: Confuzzled on December 29, 2023, 05:51:41 PMwow. I always considered noise to be the most budget friendly form of expression. As an outsider what is a low income route for producing sound in Brazil?

Anyone can produce sound for free with a smartphone, computer or some cheap recorder, I guess you are coming from this angle, and there are plenty of bedroom projects scattered across a giant country with no scenes per se. You got the rich academics circle jerk that have some kind of structure but the underground experimental is pretty much a bunch of islands, hard to connect physically, usually broken people with no time and a lot of problems, with no place to play, no labels to release outside of digital and a lot with the language barrier to deal with. Maybe I'm playing the victim here but even sustaining a normal band is very difficult around here, too much territory, too little money, and not enough interest in any kind of alternative culture. Travelling outside is too expensive and other South America countries face similar problems so a gig is too costly, etc.
Making noise is one thing, but being heard and creating a "scene" is another, no one cares about a bunch of weirdos doing digital releases, there's too much of that, this forum is an example: do you think Finland is the greatest noise country? Not shiting on finnoise, just kinda jealous of the level of unity and forward thinking, also the means to be able to consume and produce physical items.

Atrophist

#63
Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

That's such a tiresomely 2023 take. Shouldn't the fashionable new thing be, if you don't hate Israel then noise isn't for you?

If you want to wage your own Kampf on insta/Twitter 24/7, then have at it. On some level it isn't any more absurd than putting your music out on cassette tapes in editions of 25. What I find intolerable is the sanctimony and the self-righteousness.

Atrophist

Quote from: EXU on December 30, 2023, 07:48:12 PMMaking noise is one thing, but being heard and creating a "scene" is another, no one cares about a bunch of weirdos doing digital releases, there's too much of that, this forum is an example: do you think Finland is the greatest noise country? Not shiting on finnoise, just kinda jealous of the level of unity and forward thinking, also the means to be able to consume and produce physical items.


Was there a word missing there, I wonder?

Anyway, whether that statement is true or not I have no idea. The Finnish scene is certainly doing pretty well at the moment. But it has very little to do with money. Because the fact is that Finland is not a wealthy country. By that metric all other Nordic nations should have better scenes, Estonia as well, if not now, then a few years from now. Whatever the reasons are, they are somewhere else.

EXU

Quote from: Atrophist on December 30, 2023, 10:23:19 PMWas there a word missing there, I wonder?

Anyway, whether that statement is true or not I have no idea. The Finnish scene is certainly doing pretty well at the moment. But it has very little to do with money. Because the fact is that Finland is not a wealthy country. By that metric all other Nordic nations should have better scenes, Estonia as well, if not now, then a few years from now. Whatever the reasons are, they are somewhere else.

Nah, dude, that's not a metric, it's part of a big useless ranting, didn't mean to doubt Finn's street cred or something. Some reasons for me are the ones I pointed out right after the highlighted phrase.
Sorry for the bad English too.

PTM Jim

Quote from: Atrophist on December 30, 2023, 10:07:07 PMWhat I find intolerable is the sanctimony and the self-righteousness.
This. Always.

FreakAnimalFinland

I think topic is not really about "gentrification", but nevertheless interesting one:

Quote from: Atrophist on December 30, 2023, 10:23:19 PM
Quote from: EXU on December 30, 2023, 07:48:12 PMMaking noise is one thing, but being heard and creating a "scene" is another, no one cares about a bunch of weirdos doing digital releases, there's too much of that, this forum is an example: do you think Finland is the greatest noise country? Not shiting on finnoise, just kinda jealous of the level of unity and forward thinking, also the means to be able to consume and produce physical items.

Was there a word missing there, I wonder?

Anyway, whether that statement is true or not I have no idea. The Finnish scene is certainly doing pretty well at the moment. But it has very little to do with money. Because the fact is that Finland is not a wealthy country. By that metric all other Nordic nations should have better scenes, Estonia as well, if not now, then a few years from now. Whatever the reasons are, they are somewhere else.

I think Finnish scene was "noticed" abroad about year 2000. That is what some of the big boys tell me from abroad. Like guys of Tesco always mentioning how "Degenerating Finland" comp CD that established names that were just starting out and good things coming out. Already back then, there was gigs with 100-200 people attending, lots of releases, lots of artists, but within the years happens several different moments you could separate as different "eras" / "periods" of Finnish noise.

I would say some things need to grow and evolve. Someone got to start, someone got to feed energy and ideas. Someone got to communicate with people, invite people, promote ideas and ways how things are done. It might be fact that at this time of the world, a lot of things that worked well in 2000, do not work anymore. Specific moment in history is gone and idea of repeating the same won't work anyways.  Any scene, is based on collective energy and something cumulating, something emerging that formerly was perhaps even unthinkable.

My recent post on Noisextra one example. Over here, I can't think anyone who would have suggested "house gig" for noise. When I started to hear about that type of American noise scene, I was kind of amazed since in Europe there has traditionally been youth houses, squats, galleries, bars, venues to rent, etc etc. Even if idea of throwing party at your house is the most common idea, I never heard that there would have been so many of those here? Think how easy would be host ambient gig for dozen people, even in apartment?

When I started, it was in middle of worst economic depression of early 90's. Everything collapsing in Finland. Just about everybody unemployed and broke. Small town of 30000 people, no knowledge and barely ideas how and what to do and nobody to show how. Level was exactly zero-resources:  "I have no gear, nor I know what even exists" and "I have no money to buy even more than set of 3 blank tapes unless someone pays for it". What was done, was make best of that situation. When I see complaints that there is nothing here, it seems like great moment to start filling the empty space and generally creative minds start to reach each other and communicate. Of course, like I mentioned before, we live in different times now, so many times when past when people leaned to check out things just to escape boredom and feeling of nothing to do, nowadays situation might be that you do not need to awake people from "boredom", but for example, from their feeling of "being busy" or being jaded.
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Phenol

On the "gentrification" issue, just stay clear of social media and you won't even notice - works for me.

The other discussion is more interesting, I think. Why does a local/national scene thrive at a given moment and not at another? I'm situated in Denmark and have tried to organize gigs, but the turnouts have been bad - 13 paying guests for Trepaneringsritualen, 9 (I think) for Arktau Eos, both pretty big names, one would think. That has meant huge economic losses, obviously, as the artists got paid and had all costs covered as they should. Here it seems like if you're not in Copenhagen, nothing on the live scene can really succeed unless anchored locally, where the scene consists of either "old" people who don't really partake in anything anymore or PC punk-ajacent vegan types whose culture and interests are just, well...different...

It would seem on that background that now is the perfect time to do something and (re-)fill the void and bring some real industrial/noise to the people as was done in the '90s when I discovered industrial music and culture via a series of gigs with DIJ, Blood Axis etc. which opened up to a lot of other stuff. But organizing shit for empty venues becomes both tiring and expensive in the end.

So how come it can be done in the neighbouring countries, even in smaller towns? I would love to know the recipe. We have a few good recording acts scattered across the country, but even though we all kind of know (of) each other, we can't seem to make things come together for live events which, at least to me, is a crucial element of having a thriving national scene. The result is that we all look outwards and release on international labels, big and small, and play live in other countries if at all (this is partly a good thing, but it means that there is not much going on nationally).

We'll see, maybe I'll try again this coming year to get some stuff going, mainly because I'd like to go to more gigs and they're simply not happening. Just my perspective from Jutland, Denmark where there is only a handful of people into this kind of shit who all seem to prefer the home listening experience over actively participating.

burdizzo1

Heh! Maybe you need social media for spreading the word a bit!

However, I'm in the same boat in Dublin. Have been doing a small bi-monthly club night for neofolk, martial industrial, power electronics, noise, etc., for the last seven or eight years. Also organised a couple of gigs on the cheap which barely broke even. As for the club night - since Covid attendance has been pretty dire, for the most part. The last one was last month, and we had about 14 people. It was fun, but you'd like to be getting more than 20! I suppose our effort would use cultural references more from the right side, and there is - or at least, was - a collective of crusty vegan types putting on the odd noise gig. This, by the way, does not qualify as 'gentrification' of noise! I went to a few, and there wasn't a big crowd, either. Maybe we need to accept that this sort of thing is just a very marginal area of popular culture! Also, are thriving 'scenes' anywhere, anymore? As you say, most people have grown older, probably don't go out as much. There don't seem to be as many 'big' gigs going on as there used to be.

Andrew McIntosh

Quote from: Phenol on December 31, 2023, 01:21:18 PMOn the "gentrification" issue, just stay clear of social media and you won't even notice - works for me.

This forum is social media, but I think you meant the more obvious suspects.
Shikata ga nai.

Atrophist

#71
Quote from: Phenol on December 31, 2023, 01:21:18 PMI'm situated in Denmark and have tried to organize gigs, but the turnouts have been bad - 13 paying guests for Trepaneringsritualen, 9 (I think) for Arktau Eos, both pretty big names, one would think. That has meant huge economic losses, obviously, as the artists got paid and had all costs covered as they should. Here it seems like if you're not in Copenhagen, nothing on the live scene can really succeed unless anchored locally, where the scene consists of either "old" people who don't really partake in anything anymore or PC punk-ajacent vegan types whose culture and interests are just, well...different...

...

It seems to me it perhaps would have been better to start small, and build up a local scene, over time, and then bring in bigger names from outside? Persistence, and regularity is the key, in my opinion. Venues are the bottleneck, everything else is pretty easy these days. Instead of putting on noise etc. shows in mainstream bars or clubs, try to think outside the box. Here in Finland it almost seems like a rule in the local scene, that the more unlikely the venue, the better the show, hehe.


FreakAnimalFinland

Long post, due it is really interesting topic that many times being discussed, but always keeps amazing.

There are different ways and reasons people do experimental/noise shows. When Trepaneringsritualen or Arktau Eos played in Finland, I feel their shows have been very often NOT among noise crowd. It's more like experimental stuff that current music guys know. I don't say that as derogatory purpose at all. Trepaneringsritualen has happened in bars/venue with bunch of slow and heavy music band and not really noise. If Aural Hypnox bands would play, you could expect perhaps more audience from metal scene than from harsh heads - even if A.H. bands have very little to do with metal music. This makes one think who should know about gigs that are being done. Where advertise, where organize etc. Who to put on the bill with them, that even people who have no idea what's up, could recognize it as event that could be interesting.

We have seen organizers who bring the BIG names related to noise. Years ago we had Consumer Electronics, Ramleh, Wolf Eyes, BDN, Bastard Noise, Pain Jerk, Merzbow, and many more, who were clearly brought here by professional organizers as names that should interest, and in combination with right kind of bands, they are the names underground alternative music listener recognizes and may go check out. Bigger venues with easy access, often sort of "freaky element" play together with bands that more usual crowd likes.

Too small name wouldn't work like that, but thing is some of the older names that were great back in the day aren't that amazing compared to some guys at very top of the game right now. I think this is two different types of crowds. Some who want to catch the "artists you should see" and then there is audience who couldn't care less about someone who was at their best 30 years ago. Simply into good noise and not in need for see someone with veteran status.

On somewhat related note, when got the feeling that Grunt was sort of heading into this "name you know" / "freaky band for music event" -scene, it was among big reasons to stop gigs until more interesting noise gigs will be doable. I see very little if any value to warm up some completely unrelated music band, (unless it would be direct invitation from the band members themselves.)

I think the crucial point that realizing there are (at least) "two crowds", and even with certain amount of % cross over, it is very much possible that one has to think for who and how you are doing things. In my opinion this applies also for running label, distro, zine whatever. Very blunt and roughly made generalizations without the talking about obvious grey areas between:
The more commercial idea relies that there is existing audience and just to bring something, release something, offer to consumer, and that will be it. (as example: This can work in city or country where is already existing and established network/scene/etc. It's easy to open metal music record store in city with thousand metalheads, bands labels, gigs, etc. Less easy to do it in city where seems to be nothing and no culture where it would be related to.)

On more grass root level alternative, it is far more about personal communication. You know couple, or bunch of guys, you talk to them, you know just about everybody feels "we should do something". When you let them know this or that is coming to play if we just set up show, everybody is excited. It's as simple as thinking how going to gigs used to be talking with friends (who's coming? Who's driving?).. as opposed to now you have lots of gigs where familymen arrive alone, who have not talked to anyone in months. At least I see lots of this.

In RAC scene it used to be very common that skin clubs would arrange bus ride. Rent bus or two, and then everybody and their friends would have heavy duty road trip to see something. In noise gig, if someone would announce there is minibus drive from Helsinki to turku and back, I'm sure it would be full quick. With guys who otherwise skip going as they don't bother to use public transportation -most often the return trip in middle of night.

Social aspect can not be underestimated, and for a lot of shows, I feel nowadays would be benefit to return back to days when people would actually contact their friends, ask along, remind their friends, mention others someone is organizing show. I think there is huge gap in information where things are happening, but you will only hear afterwards, since most appear to assume everybody follows social media. I don't think noise show is merely the act of distortion from speakers. Just like noise release isn't just sound from speakers, but relation to so many things in life.

Back in the day, to solve some challenges, in Finland was "crew" called S.I.C.K. - Suomi Industrial Chaos Kollektive, hah.. there was talk about it in Finnish Noise topic that originally was about SICK reports as far as I remember. I wasn't even involved in early gigs, but later did little things in favor of kollektive. Idea was simply that if there is like 5...8..10 guys, who will chip in 50 euro, and as a result, there can be brought things like Wertham or Mutant Ape or something that would be unlikely to be profitable. If some money actually remains, it will be used to fly over something again that makes very little sense financially, but gets done. And certainly, things got done and several gigs organized. Crew itself being almost enough to qualify as minimum crow show needs, hah, you wouldn't need more than bunch more people to get it work out perfect. Lots of killer shows that had... 20.. 30? 50 people? I guess hard to say eventually when SICK ended and when it just wasn't necessary. Mostly same guys did more shows after kollektive had put things in motion and then things started to work out just fine without it. When "network" existed and was drawing new people in.

Nowadays there is not so much absolute NEED for such collective plus these days the also you'd need to weed out any potential drama queens instantly to keep things working. That would be my advice for anyone wanting to do something in situation where nothing is happening. If you are living in city where exists even a little phenomena of some kind of alternative culture, it may be enough. I know it is horrible task for introverted guys to be asked to reach out to even moderately likeminded people and communicate with them, but that's what one has to do. It's the reality outside virtual world. (If one prefers virtual scene, then there is no shortage of things to experience virtually.)

I personally can't believe that if there is city where exists other music cultures, art scenes, and so on.. that noise could not flourish if leg work is done, so to say.
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Manhog_84

Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

What labels are actually doing this? I only follow a few, so I'm not aware of all irritating shit that's happening in social media.

Leewar

Quote from: Manhog_84 on January 03, 2024, 06:14:26 PM
Quote from: Leewar on December 29, 2023, 12:59:41 PMI find Instagram is particularly entertaining for this. Various labels/artists posting such hilarious statement's as "If you dont support trans rights then noise isnt for you!"

What labels are actually doing this? I only follow a few, so I'm not aware of all irritating shit that's happening in social media.

As far as i remember mostly labels that consist of opening a Bandcamp account and releasing 100 'noise' compilations a week.