NOISE THAT GETS OLD?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I was visiting today record store and talking with owner who showed wall filled with rare Vertigo label titles and mentioned that this is becoming problem in near future. Meaning, that a lot of rare and expensive titles that used to be like trophies of record collector scene, are now quickly turning into stuff that nobody knows and nobody cares. Of course there are the bands that are so huge classics that they remain sought after and wanted, but a lot of stuff is something new generations never heard of, don't have any emotional attachment, no nostalgic value, plus its not like they are exceptionally good and relevant anymore.

Not long ago in some of WCN episodes was the talk about G.R.O.S.S. Tapes and Oskar saying they're nice and all that, but he doesn't really care. Not into hunting 90's tapes, not really knowing that stuff either. I would estimate this is the feeling of especially newer guys. If one joined into noise for example 2010, been around for 15 years which is pretty long time already, but how likely it would be that there is obsession to collect tapes that came out 30 years ago, perhaps by artists who are dead and gone?

In noise, a lot of stuff IS relevant and may be killer stuff, but I do wonder if notion of "noise classics" can and will change? Well, lets say, it already has. Many times I end up into discussions where I notice guys are not obsessing about Pain Jerk, MSBR or don't really listen to Hijokaidan or Aube or whatever. If they'd see original NORD LP available for 50 euro, they'd be like "blaaah... don't know, don't care". It was funny to talk with one friend who was commenting one "best noise of the year" with sarcastic "what a boomer noise listing!". It is kind of funny, but related to topic that does people see that noise indeed is moving on more than before and some of formerly celebrated names are becoming old, in a way that most of current day noise listeners don't feel much connection to them? Just like with vintage Vertigo titles, suddenly there is nobody who is convinced Yellow Cab GROSS tape is worth of 30 euro.

Not saying is it good or bad, just that it appears that phenomena of noise recordings is old enough and generations are passing, that it will have an effect and perhaps shift in near years might become faster?

[ballerinainblood666]

If someone has no interest in older noise, they are a casual or a tourist. 
I don't care if they run a label or are a noise artist or anything like that. 
You don't see this "boomer noise" attitude in hardcore or black metal or death metal. 

We cherish the old and the new. 
I buy albums from newbies. 
I buy reissues of 70s noise.  And everything in between. 
I go to shows where I know no one on the bill because they are newbies.  I go to see legends like The Haters. 
And everything in between 

This attitude of rejecting "old" noise is the attitude of posers. 
No true jazz fan rejects Miles Davis or Charlie Parker or John Coltrane just because they're "old".

I literally just today bought the first album ever from a newbie & an 80s Merzbow reissue.
I love noise. I live noise.  I immerse myself in the world of extreme sound.
No one is required to do what I do, but if you don't I will consider you a poser.

But also who cares what I think?

[thatonekidatshows]

Fixating completely on "old" or "new" noise and largely rejecting the other is 100% symptomatic of being a tourist. I've known both types (i.e., "old" and "new" noise tourists), and I find them insufferable. If you're not snagging a Nord LP for 50 euros because it's "no longer relevant," what are you even doing? Good, worthwhile noise is eternal.

[BirdBolt]

It could be a noise tourist thing, but maybe also people who are relatively new to the genre.

I remember when I first got into noise (20+ years ago), it was through live shows and hearing about new releases. And that's what excited me - touring bands and people putting out new albums. There was so much stuff happening (the USA 2000s noise boom) that I didn't even think about the roots of where everything came from. I was too busy trying to keep up with everything that was current / new.

It wasn't until a year or two later that I really started digging into the past, but my knowledge of it was pretty limited. Just the big / obvious names.

It took another year or two again until I had a good knowledge of the more obscure classics.

Everything's a lot more accessible now and information is a lot easier to come by. But it's important to give people time to get excited about the new stuff that got them into noise in the first place before expecting them to know about Sounds for Consciousness Rape releases. The people in it for the long game will always go back and discover gems from the past - they just might not be the same gems we think are classics.

[Stipsi]

"blaaah... don't know, don't care".

I never understand this kind of formula.
Probably, in my case, it is the opposite (I don't know, i care)!

[theotherjohn]

I'm a bit amused that the discussion has led to so-called "noise tourists" being at fault, especially given all the examples Mikko listed are releases made in different countries to Finland and then seemingly exported to foreign lands where they feel lost and unwelcomed. Who do you think bought -and brought- those releases over here in the first place? You guessed it - tourists! So I personally find fault with that term, given tourists, explorers, expats or other outsiders are often the ones willing to spend considerably more money to travel to different lands, buy artifacts at inflated costs, redistribute them from a homeland to another place (or "loot" even, if you perhaps consider taking these cultural items from different lands as a form of colonialism), and relay the information to more enlightened types overseas who would appreciate it more than the savage locals. Maybe when you say "noise tourist", you mean "noise migrants" or "noise vagrants" instead?

Anyway, there is something to be said about Old (as in out-of-date, stale, expired, rotting etc) noise, in the sense that all products have not just a cultural lifespan, but a physical one. Either the audience dies, or the product does. It starts its lifespan as something purchased, handled, experienced and in rare instances, maybe even enjoyed repeatedly or celebrated from release day. Then it gets shelved, maybe revisited and savored in special times as a form of nostalgia or to put in context with successive releases. Finally though, if it gets lucky, it gets relegated to that preservative, polythened status as an "artefact" or "collectors item" worthy for museums, libraries or that sad wall on the record shop or retirement fund. A few REALLY lucky ones might even get that coveted "reissue" status for those savvy, self-righteous posters above me who will settle for a simulacrum of the original. But for the most part, all products get forgotten about, dented/damaged/scratched over time, falling out of fashion as technologies similarly falter and fail, swapping hands in ever-more desperate circumstances with ever-diminishing Discogs condition grades (and maybe even being seen/understood by later [de-]generations with euphemisms ranging from outdated to "culturally inappropriate" to Entartete)... until eventually they are landfilled or destroyed. Dementia Noise. It'll happen to us all eventually, it's just a matter of time.

[Cranial Blast]

If someone has no interest in older noise, they are a casual or a tourist. 
I don't care if they run a label or are a noise artist or anything like that. 
You don't see this "boomer noise" attitude in hardcore or black metal or death metal. 

We cherish the old and the new. 
I buy albums from newbies. 
I buy reissues of 70s noise.  And everything in between. 
I go to shows where I know no one on the bill because they are newbies.  I go to see legends like The Haters. 
And everything in between 

This attitude of rejecting "old" noise is the attitude of posers. 
No true jazz fan rejects Miles Davis or Charlie Parker or John Coltrane just because they're "old".

I literally just today bought the first album ever from a newbie & an 80s Merzbow reissue.
I love noise. I live noise.  I immerse myself in the world of extreme sound.
No one is required to do what I do, but if you don't I will consider you a poser.

But also who cares what I think?

I concur. I completely agree with your first paragraph, that those whom don't have any interest in the old stuff are more than likely tourists. I see that same tourist/casual mentality in metal too once in awhile, but it's more of the opposite in metal with the older metal heads, mostly the big 4 whiffle thrasher type being not as open to the newer bands and or some of the newer metal heads who are only into the older bands, as if if there isn't anything as good today. Good example of that is those cunts on the YouTube, I can't even remember what their shits called, anymore bangertv or something, it's a collective of a bunch of poser twats who post up the most cliched bands and here and there say "Pestilence" which should mean nothing to an average true metal guy, but maybe something obscure to the casual metal person. This channel from what I seen was very annoying posting up band logos in the background like it's some ESPN fucking sporting broadcast. It's awful, cringy, seems like something the corporate world tried to leech onto...just awful, but again going back to the point. I agree, you're either dig it all, or you're probably most likely a casual listener and it's hard to believe there could even be a casual listener of noise in the first place.

[Sonicgeist]

I've noticed that certain individuals can be blocked by production, which is sometimes judged to be of lower quality than today's standards. This is not only true for noise, but also for films, etc.

They reject the old by default and settle for the new. The old doesn't match their standards, and that scares them.

Perhaps it's also a question of background: for example for those coming from black metal, audio quality won't scare us!

However, to get to know what's being done today, you need to know the roots, which is why I believe that (sound) exploration is a necessary step for those seeking to understand the subject that interests them.

Noise is not fashionable (at least not yet!?).

Besides, there may be sonic trends that mark a time, an era, the Sonic Zeitgeist, some people may want to seek out this sound for various reasons, but do they want to remain stuck in this temporal space...

[BatteredStatesofEuphoria]

I do think an attitude of "I don't care" is pretty poor, no matter what the reasoning. And, in fairness, as some of have already pointed out, this can go the other way as well, ie, someone only wants to listen to "the classics" and refuses to give anything newer a fair chance.

I think there's degrees of nuance too. Is it that someone just doesn't care about experimental artists and labels from the 80/90s in general, or they just don't want to go through the hassle of trying to track down all those tapes? Especially when a fair number have more readily available reissues or at least a Youtube rip somewhere? I totally can understand the latter attitude. Sure, those old packagings can be really nice, but its not everything.

It could be a noise tourist thing, but maybe also people who are relatively new to the genre.

I remember when I first got into noise (20+ years ago), it was through live shows and hearing about new releases. And that's what excited me - touring bands and people putting out new albums. There was so much stuff happening (the USA 2000s noise boom) that I didn't even think about the roots of where everything came from. I was too busy trying to keep up with everything that was current / new.

It wasn't until a year or two later that I really started digging into the past, but my knowledge of it was pretty limited. Just the big / obvious names.

It took another year or two again until I had a good knowledge of the more obscure classics.

This as well. This pattern played out for me for pretty much any new genre/style I got into. I think there's some degree of "trepidation" with exploring older music too, at first, a belief that the old stuff is going to be somehow not as interesting, clunkier, or just not "so cool" as contemporary artists. Most people get over that.

I don't believe anything will truly "die" as long as labels are doing a good job of keeping releases alive, and with noise, especially over the last decade, labels are doing a fantastic job reissuing stuff for new fans.

[Cranial Blast]

I understand that too that people don't want to bother to track down old tapes and in some cases those old tapes might not of been stored properly, might just be too old and maybe don't even play properly anymore and then it could hardly be worth investing too much money into, however with the wonderful reissues out there is no reason for anybody to miss a blast from the past anymore. I'd love to obtain some old Zero Cabal tapes, because there is a certain nostalgia about having something from era in time, but it would be more of less as something I'd store away, than actually repeatedly play, because we've already got those wonderful Streicher reissues through Industrial Recollections and not to say that the reissues take away from the originals, but they are more practical for the listeners and can give the potential to gather up new listeners because of it being more widely available. I wouldn't go through the energy, money and time to track down G.R.O.S.S. tapes, but I would certainly love to see and hear more reissues from the past label.

[Moran]

It is kind of funny, but related to topic that does people see that noise indeed is moving on more than before and some of formerly celebrated names are becoming old, in a way that most of current day noise listeners don't feel much connection to them? Just like with vintage Vertigo titles, suddenly there is nobody who is convinced Yellow Cab GROSS tape is worth of 30 euro.

This partly depends on the reasons said releases were celebrated. If they were celebrated because they were old, rare and competently made, then they could become "old". Classics like the best Incapacitants releases probably will continue being celebrated. Current social, political and economic circumstances are making tracking down obscure releases less attractive.

[accidental]

I pray for this. I was so happy to see Soddy give two of the greatest tapes ever, compiled on one CD, a C grading in another thread. I hope that means he stay clear of the next BF-sale.

I think Mikko should sell most of his tapes from 80s & 90s. Shit is getting outdated. The new tapes at Fusty or Filth & Violence with heavy "subject matter" (ha), or should we say "spicey stuff" is where it's at guys.

[Theodore]

I was thinking about it recently based on that this tape https://www.discogs.com/release/1830142-Various-Idealistic-Idiot-Wienerblute-Vol-1 $20 priced copy is there for a year now, unsold. I was wondering people give that money for new releases but they don't for stuff like this ?! They just don't know or they just don't care ? I don't have an answer ...

Still prices for old stuff aren't going down. So those who care, care a lot, it seems.

[host body]

I'm personally very much interested in old GROSS releases, and in general 90s Japanese noise more so than current artists, but with the exception that I think the Finnish scene right now is similarily interesting. It seems like there's a common thread, a common sense of noise to Japanese artists from the 90s as there is to Finnish artists now. It's a bit self contained, with artists listening to each other and having a strong personal style but also sharing something, a spirit or a vibe thats hard to define but that I think I recognize. I think this sort of spirit, a shared creative energy is very interesting in music. It's the same with kosmische musik I think, experimental but with a shared vision and close collaboration.

USA naturally had a similar thing in the 90s that I really like and love to explore.

[WCN]

I don't think I've heard of anyone who isn't interested or appreciative of older noise, or who are solely interested in "new noise." Older noise is constantly being reissued and reintroduced to newcomers - and we see that some of the most popular labels have that in their main focus - Tribe Tapes, Industrial Recollections, etc. If anything, I think the opposite is true - there are a lot of noise fans, both older and newer to the genre, who maintain the attitude that older noise is inherently superior, and new noise is somehow misguided or derivative.

Not long ago in some of WCN episodes was the talk about G.R.O.S.S. Tapes and Oskar saying they're nice and all that, but he doesn't really care. Not into hunting 90's tapes, not really knowing that stuff either.

For the record, and I can't remember exactly what I said there, but my point wasn't that G.R.O.S.S. tapes etc. aren't wonderful and important, but just that with my limited resources, I'm more interested in purchasing something new from an active artist, or an affordable reissue of something classic, than spending 5-10x the money on a rare OG copy of something that came out 30+ years ago. To each their own, and maybe my habits will change some day, but I don't agree with the sentiment that older and rarer is inherently better, and I also don't like when these older trophies become generic status symbols.