Tape vs CDr

[Analogan Smrt]

I am sorry if this is a topic already covered elsewhere.
Yesterday I was checking tape dubs after work and I was wondering why people and distros still prefer tapes (hiss, always-almost perfect dub, ferric or at best chrome) over CDr. We all know CDr sucks as a format but in the 90's people were running away from the analog format even if it was still cheaper to produce and put out. Moreover the CDr is unlikely to have seconds cut off because either something happened or because pro services are unreliable (but only rarely I must admit).
What are your thoughts?

[antipure]

Tape seems to have a warmth similar to vinyl. Also there is a beauty in a format that degrades with time, I guess. It is somewhat easier to ship. A working cassette will work on any working cassette player, with CD there could be a risk (I think). Plus something about them feels real and different, maybe nostalgia, maybe being disconnected to some extent from the digital. Plus if you're making noise music, I'm not really sure that a bit of background hiss, or a problem with your heads is really enough of an issue to warrant using new technology. Perhaps it's just a conscious or sub-conscious "fuck you" to modernity and the mainstream, which has pretty much left both formats behind for mp3 anyway. I also just thought that perhaps cassettes have that innate ability to be recorded over multiple times but seem to contain remnants of the old, which is kind of cool I guess and ties into that degradation thing. I think the preference is driven by the scene/market, there aren't many pop stars emphatically pushing their tapes.

In regards to the few seconds shaved off and lack of pro services, I'm not sure how much of a concern/issue that is for artists that choose the format. Is this something you've experienced? Have you found a decent pro service for cassettes? I might be looking for one's in Australia. At the moment I just have a portable recorder and a bigger dual one. They both bring their own nuances and sound to the recordings, analogue feels closer to the sound.

[Analogan Smrt]

Two I know, but they are in Europe unfortunately or you. It had happened to me, around 20sec on the B side. No big deal but still quite annoying at least at first.  I like tapes though. I usually dub them at home having two pretty nice deck that are practically new. Unless you really do not have time or are working on a massive tape set/box, homedubbing is the way to go I guess.

[F_c_O]

For me it is simply the fact that tape looks much better, i find it much nicer to handle tapes, it takes actual effort to get your stuff onto tapes and it does sound bit better to me.

cd-rs simply look and feel cheap, like some five minute thing you didnt bother to put that much effort into anyways which always creeps into my perception of the format. Didnt you respect your own material enough to bother to go through the few extra hoops and expenses to get it dubbed or pressed onto real cd or something? Are you serious about this or is this just a one time joke?

[holy ghost]

I've got CDRs from 2 years ago that won't play and tapes from 1985 that still sound great. Disc rot, botched burns, general cheapness.... I've got shitty dubbed tapes too but that's rare.

Plus as mentioned above CDRs usually look like shit.

[Analogan Smrt]

You have  a point.  CDR feel pretty rushed and cheap.
But is it only a psychological factor? Like yesterday I was going through slaughter prods' CDR thinking about how perception of the format have changed...at the time many were switching gladly to digital, away from mostly home made tapes  (that actually was a mistake, tape sounded better for the music we made).
About putting enough effort...you are right. Tapes at least dictate and ask for your time and effort, it is a more work of love thing.

[Theodore]

Two I know, but they are in Europe unfortunately or you. It had happened to me, around 20sec on the B side. No big deal but still quite annoying at least at first.  I like tapes though. I usually dub them at home having two pretty nice deck that are practically new. Unless you really do not have time or are working on a massive tape set/box, homedubbing is the way to go I guess.

You had audio's duration close to tape's duration and that cut-off was at the end ? Then there is speed difference between your decks or if you were recording from digital source your deck runs faster. Anyway, to the topic ... Maybe we are sadomaso haha. No man, i can discuss any other format but not CD-r ! I don't trust them. I have old CD-r, data and music, rarely used, if ever, that look perfect and they don't play ! When rarely happens to buy a CD-r nowdays the first and only play i give them is to rip them, cause i don't trust them they will play tomorrow. And i consider them as buying digital files with the difference that CD-r i can sell it.

Shitty dubs can happen. But tape is probably the most durable format.

[Analogan Smrt]

Two I know, but they are in Europe unfortunately or you. It had happened to me, around 20sec on the B side. No big deal but still quite annoying at least at first.  I like tapes though. I usually dub them at home having two pretty nice deck that are practically new. Unless you really do not have time or are working on a massive tape set/box, homedubbing is the way to go I guess.

You had audio's duration close to tape's duration and that cut-off was at the end ? Then there is speed difference between your decks or if you were recording from digital source your deck runs faster. Anyway, to the topic ... Maybe we are sadomaso haha. No man, i can discuss any other format but not CD-r ! I don't trust them. I have old CD-r, data and music, rarely used, if ever, that look perfect and they don't play ! When rarely happens to buy a CD-r nowdays the first and only play i give them is to rip them, cause i don't trust them they will play tomorrow. And i consider them as buying digital files with the difference that CD-r i can sell it.

Shitty dubs can happen. But tape is probably the most durable format.

Could be. Need to check next time. Thanks for the tip. Anyway, 10/20 sec less is not a big deal especially if we are talking about longer track with long fade out...back in topic, badly dubbed tapes are actually a rarity as you said...it is pretty hard to badly dub one tape...it is a matter of putting effort...recycled tapes are another matter altogether.

[Theodore]

A similar discussion happened here : http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=6713.0

Edit : And here : http://www.special-interests.net/forum/index.php?topic=3929.0

[Fluid Fetish]

When rarely happens to buy a CD-r nowdays the first and only play i give them is to rip them, cause i don't trust them they will play tomorrow. And i consider them as buying digital files with the difference that CD-r i can sell it.Shitty dubs can happen. But tape is probably the most durable format.

This. I completely avoid CD-R's for the most part, unless absolutely necessary. Any format that requires me to immediately make copies of whatever I buy due to how quickly it deteriorates is a joke....the life of a CD-R is so short, especially if you play the disc a lot. I've recently been listening to a lot of these obscure Mexican black metal bands and all their releases on CD-R's so as soon as I pick up an album I immediately rip it and make a temporary CD-R so I don't wear out the original copy.

As many people have pointed out before, with analog formats there is a deterioration but the process adds a certain type of quality to the sound....especially certain types of music. I love listening to certain albums when the tape or the vinyl is worn out and played to hell....

Tape maybe isn't the most durable format in my opinion, that's CD's definitely since they pretty much last forever or at least in the climate I currently live in (no CD rot or anything).

There was an excellent SI article I remember that interviewed artists as to why they preferred or liked the tape cassette format, experimenting with splicing/reels, the potentials of sound manipulation with the format etc. and it was one of the most interesting zine reads I've ever seen.

[Zeno Marx]

Wear out a CD/CDr?  Not possible insofar as # of playbacks.  What are you people using to play them?  An angle grinder?

[Cementimental]

I think the only noise CD-r I've ever had 'degrade' was one packaged floating in a bag of water.  Maybe there's a problem in humid/hot countries? You keeping them on your windowsill?

[Fluid Fetish]

I've never had a CD degrade on me at all, but I've had multiple burnt CD-R's stop playing or stop functioning and they were stored with care and played in a high quality CD player etc. etc. Typically they were only CD-R's that I played repeatedly though.

[Theodore]

Well, maybe i sounded too much against CD-r earlier, more than i should be or really am. Meaning that yes, vast majority of the CD-r i have, they still play. But i have lost trust in them, seeing enough CD-r given 2-3 plays, then stored in their case in the closet, when i come back to them years later they look perfect but they can't be read. Disc is spinning and spinning, no recognized, in any machine. Don't know why. And when this happens, you loose it all ! Same with HDDs, i had just one died on me, just once, but lost it all. I lost trust in them, so since then i have a mirror back-up HDD. As Fluid Fetish wrote, anything that requires me to create a copy cause i may loose it anytime without warning, without reason ... well, i try to avoid it. That requirement comes ofcource of my lack of trust, but that's it anyway. HDD i can't avoid, CD-r i can ! I copy / rip stuff but when i want to and for reasons of "easy" access everywhere. I don't like doing it cause i have to or cause of my "paranoia" if you think so.

[Zeno Marx]

Typically they were only CD-R's that I played repeatedly though.

in scientific terms, they call that:  coincidence