Death Squad "Intent" video essay

Started by Aether, August 02, 2020, 02:07:10 AM

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JLIAT

#15
Quote from: Theodore on August 18, 2020, 12:14:21 AM
Quote from: JLIAT on August 17, 2020, 08:38:34 PM
So if the intentions of Artaud was to cause sensation by actual threats as part of some critique, as is Death Squad, how are they different to any terrorist group, or any state which employs fear to some aim?

Ways, means, result. Terrorists KILL.


Not all, high-jackers can merely seek publicity, freeing hostages. The killing and suicide attacks are a more recent development. The aim is publicity, which IMO is similar to those who use shock tactics in what they think is art. When the CIA et al torture they seek not to kill, merely create that illusion in order to gain information. So if Death Squad had no intention to kill, merely create that illusion, again what difference is there?
Quote from: Theodore on August 18, 2020, 12:14:21 AM

The artist may hurt your ... feelings or scare you. It's not the same, is it ? Not with killing, not with torture. - If an artist comes to me with a gun i am -almost- sure he is not going to shoot me.

If you were sure the artist's aim was just to shock and not kill the intent would fail. Hence the artwork would fail. And Death Squad if he takes his idea from Bennett is interesting. In an interview Bennett says his aim was to shock, but it became difficult as audiences got to know what to expect, so he sort out new audiences who did not. I don't know how true this is, and i've said before I think the mistake is that because some avant garde art shocked audiences – shocking audiences is avant garde. Its not. You can take candy from little children, and cause upset, or expose yourself in public. It should be obvious that to shock you can simply advocate what your audience would find shocking. Only care needs to be taken not to go too far. The Chapman's early work used paedophilia themes, now hard to find. As for feelings being hurt rather than killing, in some cases it could be considered not the same, less or worse. What if the 'artwork' is so shocking it causes a permanent mental condition.  Zarathustra consoles the dying tight rope walker with the idea that death is an end. The great 'artworks' of religion need the prospect of immortality to shock and scare.

Quote from: Theodore on August 18, 2020, 12:14:21 AM


Cause i havent ever heard an artist to kill the audience as part of his performance. -

yet? I would suspect there might be cases.*
Quote from: Theodore on August 18, 2020, 12:14:21 AM

On the other hand if i listen allah akbar and see an unknown holding a gun, well, i wont stay standing still.

It's like you to make equal a threat, a 'performance' , a thought with the actual action itself.

No – its not me, its Death Squad. If those in the audience didn't think it was equal, they would have not run for their lives. Again, as I said, in theatre the aim is to cause emotion in an audience that knows the performance isn't real. They do not run, but sit and get some pleasure from experiencing powerful emotions in relative safety. Thus the term 'Art'.  

*This.  "The Sorrows of Young Werther turned Goethe, previously an unknown author, into a literary celebrity almost overnight. Napoleon Bonaparte considered it one of the great works of European literature, having written a Goethe-inspired soliloquy in his youth and carried Werther with him on his campaigning to Egypt. It also started the phenomenon known as the "Werther Fever", which caused young men throughout Europe to dress in the clothing style described for Werther in the novel.  Items of merchandising such as prints, decorated Meissen porcelain and even a perfume were produced.

The book reputedly also led to some of the first known examples of copycat suicide. The men were often dressed in the same clothing "as Goethe's description of Werther and using similar pistols." Often the book was found at the scene of the suicide."

Death Squad has a way to go!

theotherjohn

In regards to terrorism, I'm almost certain that Death Squad would have aligned himself more with the so-called "aesthetic terrorism" school of thought (see Adam Parfrey's essay in the book Apocalypse Culture)

Related anecdote: Joe Coleman who painted the cover of AC also performed in his early 'Professor Mombooze-o' days a terroristic intervention of sorts in an art gallery where as part of the finale he aimed a loaded gun at point blank range against the event organiser's temple. It's mentioned in the introduction/opening essay to The Book Of Joe, but I don't have it on hand right now to copy and paste the relevant passage.

The song Gloomy Sunday (also known as 'The Hungarian Sucide Song') has allegedly been connected to several suicides too.

JLIAT, do you have the source for the Bennett interview/quote?


JLIAT

Quote from: theotherjohn on August 18, 2020, 11:58:22 AM
In regards to terrorism, I'm almost certain that Death Squad would have aligned himself more with the so-called "aesthetic terrorism" school of thought (see Adam Parfrey's essay in the book Apocalypse Culture)

Related anecdote: Joe Coleman who painted the cover of AC also performed in his early 'Professor Mombooze-o' days a terroristic intervention of sorts in an art gallery where as part of the finale he aimed a loaded gun at point blank range against the event organiser's temple. It's mentioned in the introduction/opening essay to The Book Of Joe, but I don't have it on hand right now to copy and paste the relevant passage.

The song Gloomy Sunday (also known as 'The Hungarian Sucide Song') has allegedly been connected to several suicides too.

JLIAT, do you have the source for the Bennett interview/quote?

i think it was this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Htl5JArfmkI

From this i think at the beginning he talks of an interest in the figures such as The Yorkshire ripper, but latter talks about concerns being more for the victims?


There is another where he discusses music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IL5qrPlfmk





Theodore

Quotes from JLIAT :

QuoteWhen the CIA et al torture they seek not to kill, merely create that illusion in order to gain information. So if Death Squad had no intention to kill, merely create that illusion, again what difference is there?

The difference is that anyone who has been tortured for info would beg to go to that Death Squad performance instead ! Do you really cant see the difference ? I think you do. Amazes me how you even compare these two ! I dont get it, sorry. Thus i have nothing more to add on this. To instantly scare you and make you run away is not torture !

QuoteIf you were sure the artist's aim was just to shock and not kill the intent would fail. Hence the artwork would fail.

I am sure his aim wasnt to kill, i dont even know if to shock was an aim either. You call it failed artwork. I call it a performance, failed or not i wasnt there to have an opinion. A performance like the theatre you describe, thus art :

QuoteIf those in the audience didn't think it was equal, they would have not run for their lives. Again, as I said, in theatre the aim is to cause emotion in an audience that knows the performance isn't real. They do not run, but sit and get some pleasure from experiencing powerful emotions in relative safety. Thus the term 'Art'.

I really dont want to be too harsh with the audience who ran away cause, i dont know, different times. I guess i wouldnt run. Not now for sure, at least not till the first shot. But for example if there were fake 'terrorists' in the audience as part of the 'happening' started screaming islamic bullshit and holding guns or 'guns' , i wouldnt stay a second more to figure out what is happening ! So i dont want to be harsh on them. - Why you think an 'avant-garde' show is or has to be real. More real than a theatre ?

QuoteWhat if the 'artwork' is so shocking it causes a permanent mental condition

Too ridiculous to discuss about it. If we say there are such cases then the mental condition already exists ! Guys like these :

QuoteThe book reputedly also led to some of the first known examples of copycat suicide
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

JLIAT

Quote from: Theodore on August 19, 2020, 01:24:16 AM


I am sure his aim wasnt to kill, i dont even know if to shock was an aim either.

I'm sure putting a loaded gun to someone's head is to shock, to cause terror. If you cant see the difference between a theatrical performance where the violence is acted, there the audience can 'enjoy' a cathartic experience, ergo art, which dates at least to the Greek drama, and actual threats against ones person, then you are duty bound to accept Stockhausen's claim that 911 was a great artwork.

And there are laws preventing people from encouraging suicide and murder, for the very reason that ordinary people can be manipulated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#:~:text=The%20Milgram%20experiment%28s%29%20on%20obedience%20to%20authority%20figures,perform%20acts%20conflicting%20with%20their%20personal%20conscience%20.

And any number of religious suicide cults... People can be manipulated,  esp by artists, why Plato banned them.

And yes, i've also finished.




Bloated Slutbag

#20
I think one of my questions with respect to some of the criticism is the necessarily, um, "armchair" relation. That is to say, until I'm actually, physically, put in the moment, I'm not sure I'm fully qualified to offer criticism. By this I refer not a recording but to an event, as it is happening. Not having leave of all the "facts" we can at best speculate. One can speculate but cannot say, in-my-never-even-slightly-humble-opinion, with any conviction, whether this is art. Armchair criticism can only get us so far. After that time to invoke the nike ad.

I can only speak to the facts as they have been presented. And the "woman on yahoo" is a necessary part of that. The "woman on yahoo" helps define how I feel about it, but I think it fair enough to question whether this woman on yahoo is part of the performance. After all, this commentary and criticism is not taking place in the moment, it is taking place in the context of the (late) re-presentation of the moment. It is taking place in the context of all-too-easily misrepresented impressions of the moment. Ergo, the facts are fleeting at best.

I don't feel qualified to offer a proper criticism and therefore, the critique of the performance needs to thread that needle. In other words, you'll very probably have to bull your way through my skepticism. Good luck.
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

JLIAT

Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on August 19, 2020, 06:29:48 PM
I think one of my questions with respect to some of the criticism is the necessarily, um, "armchair" relation. That is to say, until I'm actually, physically, put in the moment, I'm not sure I'm fully qualified to offer criticism. By this I refer not a recording but to an event, as it is happening. Not having leave of all the "facts" we can at best speculate. One can speculate but cannot say, in-my-never-even-slightly-humble-opinion, with any conviction, whether this is art. Armchair criticism can only get us so far. After that time to invoke the nike ad.

I can only speak to the facts as they have been presented. And the "woman on yahoo" is a necessary part of that. The "woman on yahoo" helps define how I feel about it, but I think it fair enough to question whether this woman on yahoo is part of the performance. After all, this commentary and criticism is not taking place in the moment, it is taking place in the context of the (late) re-presentation of the moment. It is taking place in the context of all-too-easily misrepresented impressions of the moment. Ergo, the facts are fleeting at best.

I don't feel qualified to offer a proper criticism and therefore, the critique of the performance needs to thread that needle. In other words, you'll very probably have to bull your way through my skepticism. Good luck.

I'm not actually making a negative criticism (or positive) of Death Squad's performance. What i'm saying is that if it is to be considered as art, in the same way as Bennett, wanting to shock and make people run into the woods to paraphrase him, then it qualifies as art.  As for qualitative judgements again is it the amount of shock, originality (Bennett might make this claim) or number of shocked.
And given that for some the artist's intention is insufficient, 'works' such as 911 could included, as sketched by Stockhausen who I think claimed the devil as the artist. In effect 911 or even WW2 is no different to Duchamp's ready mades. The latter being now considered as art.

If however one defines art differently, like a theatre production isn't 'the real thing' but 'acted' then Death Squad's performance might not be accepted, whereas a production of Macbeth, in which the murders and daggers are all fake, might be. Just as a painting of say a haystack might be considered as art, but an actual haystack not.

Given post-modernity and the failure of  modernity's criteria either of the above is now the case, "if someone calls it art its art". If Bennett and Death Squad see the causation of terror as art it's OK by me, but I cant see in that case why an act of terrorism isn't therefore by the same criteria art also.

And lastly given ready mades such as field recordings,  4' 33" etc the art object (like a bottle rack) need not be actually the product of the artist.

Bloated Slutbag

I should probably avoid words like "criticism" and replace with something like, "have a coherent idea of what it is supposed to mean to me". Because I don't- have a coherent idea of what it is supposed to mean to me- because I wasn't there and I think in some instances, and this might be one, you would simply have to be.
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

JLIAT

#23
Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on August 20, 2020, 11:18:56 AM
I should probably avoid words like "criticism" and replace with something like, "have a coherent idea of what it is supposed to mean to me". Because I don't- have a coherent idea of what it is supposed to mean to me- because I wasn't there and I think in some instances, and this might be one, you would simply have to be.

That's a perfectly reasonable attitude for you to hold about such work, and yet this work was recorded   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=031jdFhXGwI  presumably for others to watch? and so react to? Moreover the original post has " I'm sure many of you have heard about it but I thought I would give my take and go a bit more in depth researching it. I'd love to start a conversation about it."  So while you might rule yourself out of a conversation others do not. Do you think such a performance rules out ANY conversation? I.E. the extreme 'tactics' found in PE. Because i cant see why. And surely it follows then that other historical events may likewise be lost to ANY discussion.

And a coherent idea for me is that PE via its originators set out to shock audiences, and this 'work' is an example.

theotherjohn

When you write statements like "In effect 911 or even WW2 is no different to Duchamp's ready mades", then all reasonable conversation goes out of the window, JLIAT.

The original Death Squad video on YouTube has comments disabled, so you won't find discussion there.

As for this derailed discussion/digression, it just stemmed from a young guy still finding their feet in this scene, promoting their modest opinion of some noise history through a YouTube video format and, I guess, potentially trying to get the algorithm to work in his favor if he used a sensationalist title, warning card and an provocative opening question with these keywords. Unfortunately for him, most of the discussion and interaction has taken place AWAY from that video and its comment section (this forum post currently has 3x views than said video essay), and none of us are any closer to what this performance was about (and certainly, Michael Nine is not going to explain or justify it). Or even, if Intent was indeed "the most extreme artistic performance of all time" (answer: no it's not, in more ways than one).

I don't feel the blame is necessarily on the original poster as I was more than happy to gently encourage him to keep making more videos and certainly I hope he does, but I'm not sure whether he still feels compelled to do so in the future after the direction this thread has taken. He's not been keeping up with the conversation on here himself which speaks volumes.

As for Bennett, please refer to an interview such as this one instead of using misquotes, paraphrases and incorrect assertions: http://www.susanlawly.freeuk.com/textfiles/whinterview01.htm

I would encourage a moderator to lock this thread if it is within their discretion and they see no further significant posts stemming from it. This has once again become a circle jerk for JLIAT's myopic interests.

JLIAT

#25
Quote from: theotherjohn on August 20, 2020, 12:50:25 PM
When you write statements like "In effect 911 or even WW2 is no different to Duchamp's ready mades", then all reasonable conversation goes out of the window, JLIAT.
Did you read my reply in which I outlined Stockhausen claiming 911 was an artwork?  As for the Bennett interview i'm not aware of my miss-representing what he said. I will re-listen and read the one you outlined. But when one of the most significant avant garde musicians makes a statement I think it deserves being addressed.

Stockhausen re 911 - "What happened there, is – now you must all reset your brain – the greatest artwork ever. That spirits accomplish in one act something that in music we could not dream of  ..."

Yeh 'short-sighted'

theotherjohn

Yes, I'm fully aware of that statement. Damien Hirst said a similar thing too. Both were moronic and ignorant remarks, and thankfully both distanced themselves from their words later on. I would encourage you to do the same.

The problem again, as we've run into countless times in the last month or so with recent forum discussions, is the casual bandying around of loaded and highly reductive words like "extreme", "shocking" and - perhaps the most divided term of them all - "art", when justifying awful actions, opinions or motives committed by persons who aren't right in their mind or judgment. And we're never going to reach a conclusive answer, as said words have been corrupted so much overtime into sensational stereotypes that they are near-useless, precisely because they have been used repeatedly as a measure for prior awful actions, opinions or motives committed by similar dysfunctional people. You only need to mention concepts like "modern art" to your average everyman for them to bring up ghastly associations of it with soiled unmade beds or piles of rubbish in an art gallery setting (which through such an association apparently elevates it to something deserving of respect and attention), be it out of ignorance or media programming. And even though I could waffle on tirelessly too about the merits of Tracey Emin, Gustav Metzger or any other cause célèbre or iconoclast, who am I to correct your average Joe/Joanne when such ideas have been reinforced to the point of them becoming lowest common denominators?

Personally I would much rather seek out the greater moral good in people rather than their lowest points, even if not the fashionable thing to do in these current times. Thus, I would rather regard Stockhausen by his musical compositions than his ill-informed 9/11 outbursts, much as I would rather uphold the victims of 9/11 by the lives they had lived than their untimely demises at the hands of terrorists. Then again, numerous critics or theorists of a bombastic nature might also assert that Stockhausen or Cage or whoever's progressive/regressive approach to music was a tragedy on an equal scale for the later developments they inspired. No need to name names and go on any further with this tired topic, as yet again we're already missing the point of this thread... so I suggest we both step away from the computer and go outside for a change. It's quite sunny where I am here in the UK.

Bloated Slutbag

Well if we're just talking the video re-presentation of Intent my opinion is plain: fucking great!

I've enjoyed all the videos on the Michael Nine youtube channel, from Almost Dead In Chicago 1999 on through. All excellent, but my favorite I think is Waiting Room. It's clear the man's talents are not limited to the sounds, any one of the videos could stand alone as a solid piece of work.
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag


Rubby



[/quote]

The other way round is more common

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Way_killings
[/quote]

If I could go back in time I'd commission Mania to do an album about this.