How do you know when a track is done

Started by Soloman Tump, November 10, 2020, 01:06:41 AM

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Soloman Tump

I seem to spend increasingly longer on post production all the time. Listening back to tracks, tweaking levels / eq / pan.... Then I leave it alone for a while and come back and decide whether I still like it or not.

How do you finally decide that something is the best it possibly can be?

I think my problem is that as I am continually learning, I am never satisfied.

On the plus side i guess my threshold is therefore set high and I'm not flooding bandcamp with a new album every week

Balor/SS1535

I have never set out to compose tracks to sound some specific way, though I do keep general aesthetic aims in mind when I record and compile things together.  In the richest sense, I think that I know that a track is done when I realize that there is nothing that I can do to bring it closer to the general aims that I had in my head.

Sometimes I also know that I am done when I just want to be done.  The inspiration drains away, and I no longer feel compelled to work on it any more.

However, I think we might be able to distinguish between two senses of "done."  On the one hand, a track can be totally done, as in finished and never to be touched again.  On the other, I sometimes am done with tracks, but only for a time.  I keep them in the back of my mind in case anything happens that could help me truly finish them.  Tracks like those feel closer to "done" than "works-in-progress" because I can go for long periods of time without tinkering with them in any way.  They just sit there and wait.

Andrew McIntosh

Horses for courses. Personally I never got too deeply into post-production stuff, as I always settled for what kind of sound I was immediately recording. Even with non-Noise material.

I'm often a bit surprised at how long it takes some people to finally fix their work. I've recently started working with a new digital audio workspace, and am frankly amazed at the huge number of options there are for mixing alone. It seems to me that fiddling around and polishing up is the majority of what a lot of people who make their own are doing these days.

I've tried paying more attention to such matters, but in the end always found it not only boring but unnecessary. Since I started with four-tracks and always had a "record/mix-it-down/that's it, finished" kind of attitude, I've never cared too much for too much fixing up after the basic sound has been made. Laziness and apathy don't work for everyone but they work for me.

Shikata ga nai.

slagfrenzy tapes

If you're "fiddling" step away.
Once you release it, it won't be yours any more.
It's your decision to release it, which is true.

Its your artistic expression, only you can decide.

My two cents worth.

slagfrenzy tapes

Or how many bands are remastering their songs?
How many of these bands are "fiddling"?

Be a real person, this is what it sounds like.
Be tough.

FreakAnimalFinland

There is a recent Beherit interview about his electronic experimental stuff in big state owned media. Quite amusing actually, to have the Finnish state radio put out long text + 1,5 hour audio podcast about Beherit. Anyways, he concludes that after years of doing all with mouse, on the laptop, he moved back into doing analogue stuff. One of the reasons was as simple as getting it done.

Experience that when you got the option to return back to mix, and start tweaking little details, you will. If you just have to finish the track on analogue mixer, synths and such, you will basically lose the setting after session is done and moving on to next. This creates both need to focus - to be there making the track. Not just editing the track. It also creates finality. Stuff is completed, and you either like it or not. Make new take or move on to new track.

Most of stuff what I do, has same kind of element. If not in whole track, then always most of stuff appearing in track is multi-layered recording on tape deck. There is possibility to adjust a bit EQ or compress or such. Due often there are bunch of layers in one stereo (or mono) track, one just can't go back and adjust levels or any details of individual sounds.

This is totally conscious move, as it has big difference in sound, does everything sort of melt together, or is everything floating separately. One can of course start doing all sorts of tricks to get the good saturation happening later on. I feel that the real deal is better than all sorts of editing tricks to emulate result.

Especially for noise, I feel that it is almost like... metal drummers. You got the true masters, who have the skills. You got the brutal aggro players who don't really need the skills. Just energy. And then most of people, got neither. They got the basic sets of "this is how it should be done", and that averageness appears in form of not being really good enough, but also cleansing all the barbaric elements. Mistakes, odd fills, all the "what the hell just happened" -things etc. correcting drum hits on editing grid.   In old noise, even the master often had the accidental goofy sounds, things falling apart for a bit. They would leave it as is, while nowadays it seems as if only seemingly "neat stuff" remains and rest stuff is cut out. Suddenly the "neat stuff" might not be that neat. That can very easily lead into being on same category as "average modern metal drummer". I would prefer not to be in such category.

So when track is done? It is just a gut feeling, BUT, I like to create this situation where things happen. There is the drive, motivation and energy to want to record, then there is recording process where things get done. If aim of session is not source sounds, but to play tracks, I generally play things until things worth to record emerges from speakers. Then I hit the rec button.  That recording, with all it's flaws that may happen during live-mix that happens on the stop, will be the core of track or even ready track as is. When options are either keep it, or reject the recording, you know it far easier than when toying around if some particular layer should be +1dB or -1dB or if the envelope curve of echo is perfect now, or should you tweak it...   I want noise to happen - not to be just editing.
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

JLIAT

#6
Quote from: Soloman Tump on November 10, 2020, 01:06:41 AM
I seem to spend increasingly longer on post production all the time. Listening back to tracks, tweaking levels / eq / pan.... Then I leave it alone for a while and come back and decide whether I still like it or not.

How do you finally decide that something is the best it possibly can be?

With any 'live' performance this is obviously not possible. So does this mean all this post production kills anything which can be considered 'live'. Might the ability to tweak be  then a curse, an endless process...? and one for much of history was not possible.  And if Music is organised sound, then the more you organise the less it is 'spontaneous' noise.

As for judging the work by if you like it or not, once you have produced it surely it exists in the world. That is you might not like it but others may, if the criteria is amusement, and you may come to consider it differently at some future point.

I think there might be a danger here in seeking the 'perfect' track, a promise offered by technology... and maybe in future the 'perfect' human...

and some works now considered 'great' works were often not 'liked', not even produced to be liked...

Quote from: Soloman Tump on November 10, 2020, 01:06:41 AM

I think my problem is that as I am continually learning, I am never satisfied.

A dangerous addiction, hope etc?

Quote from: Soloman Tump on November 10, 2020, 01:06:41 AM

On the plus side i guess my threshold is therefore set high and I'm not flooding bandcamp with a new album every week

Yesterday I flooded Youtube with 50 new works. Today i'll do the same on my soundcloud account.

https://soundcloud.com/jliat/sets/genus-siqiiaratopijik    :-)

(looking out of the window I see many tress, some still with leaves, golden yellow, hundreds of leaves, and squirrels, magpies, finches, neighbours cats... a crow is calling high in a tree.. all this yet another 'ordinary' far from perfect day..)


WARNING:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27%C5%92uvre

QuoteClaude moves to the country to soak up more of the 'Open Air' atmosphere he revelled in as a child and to create more masterpieces...  He is unable to project his ideas successfully or combine them into a meaningful whole. He begins adding incongruous elements (like a female nude bather), reworks and repaints until the whole enterprise collapses into disaster, then starts over. His inability to create his masterpiece deepens his depression....

Post Script.  OFSTED an education inspection body in the UK which has been responsible for many break downs and suicides in its rigorous inspection regime, in a remarkable Orwellean way issued the command...

                                                    "SATISFACTORY IS NO LONGER SATISFACTORY"  

JLIAT


urall

Deadlines help for me.
I usually have an idea where i want to go with a track, but don't finish it in one take. That was more before when i did everything real time, straight to 4track tape.
Now i can have a couple of unfinished tracks laying around for months, where i know it needs something but i don't know what exactly.
And for example when i get a deadline i can finish them all in a week or 2. For me it's a mix of inspiration and purely 'hard work'. But fun alltogether.
I don't like the tweaking too much, it's usually editing the length of something and try to EQ/master it in a DAW.
Hope it makes sense

TS

Used to have this problem. Now we record everything "live". A studio session is usually a few hours of preparing a track, all instruments, lyrics, vocal sound etc and then it is recorded. Kind of like preparing for a gig. It takes away the endless second guessing of DAW's and I also think the added pressure makes for better vocal performance on my part.
Kropper uten Mellomrom

Thermophile

Setting a deadline to yourself works for me. After all we are finite beings with finite time and finite goals.

As for the actual "when" can be within a single day, a month or eventually abandoned and picked up at some later moment.
Depends a lot on what is the concept and the idea. Then this idea degenerates in the process of making it and only the very broad general outline of that idea remains.
It's an open conflict between concepts and the actual experience of doing it. The latter takes you to different paths which can prolong, finish or abandon the creation of a track.

I try to avoid as much as possible machines and equipment dictating the frame hence I prefer a hybrid analogue/digital setup and highly modular connectivity  between my low-end analogue equipment (the patch bay is my most important tool).
The digital aspect is important if your concept requires editing at a finer detail but there is the danger of being overwhelmed by the endless options. Using tools in a greedy way just because you have so much and you want to use everything.



A-Z

Used to fiddle a lot and spend more time doing post than recording. Then asked myself what I really wanted, to record the sounds that I enjoy or to turn myself into a professional audio engineer?
Decided it was the former and went old school...
Now I just try to record everything in such a way that nothing needs "fixing" at the mixing stage, and the track already sounds good after I simply set the levels of individual stems. A part not working? Re-record, replace with something else, or simply discard.
Then I send the stems to a professional mixing engineer, he does his thing, we discuss revisions, which are usually very minor, then I get the final mix and send it to a mastering engineer.
This way I end up with tracks that sound x10 better than anything I'd be able to produce myself and take x10 less time to complete.
Also, there's an added benefit of increased quality control. Since I'm paying actual money for mixing & mastering, I have to be sure that what I record really merits financial investment.

Soloman Tump

#12
Thank you one and all, was not expecting so many replies so quickly.

I guess my main issue is that my recording process is currently done in headphones in my garage - my neighbour doesn't really like blasts of noise and electronics.  I have been recording "live" by sending instruments and effects into my mixer and recording the resulting .wav

As mentioned above - there are a few tricks for tweaking EQ here and there but once the recording is done this way there is only so much that can be done to alter it.    As the saying goes - you cannot polish a turd!

I want to keep working on my recording process and I would like keep as much of the original recordings as possible, to retain the raw and as intended product.  Mixing together live has taught me a great deal about levels and giving elements room to breathe so I can adjust them afterwards if needed.

W.K.

#13
no no no.


Straight murkin' riddim blud, absolute vile gash

JLIAT

#14
Quote from: Soloman Tump on November 10, 2020, 04:46:34 PM

I guess my main issue is that my recording process is currently done in headphones in my garage - my neighbour doesn't really like blasts of noise and electronics.


But its very likely the same will be true of any listeners to your material.

And we are talking about noise! But its not anyway just a case of having studio monitors... what is the media you prefer, cassette, in which case what will be your audience's most likely playback be? Not Hi Fi? CDR ? Again – if not via headphones then maybe Hi Fi or more likely in a Car stereo. (I used to make CDRs of my work and listen in the car...) Most likely work these days ends up on smartphones... or computer.

OK if you are making recordings of material which aims at re creating a live sound again in the noise scenario its going to be in some room with a relatively poor PA and hopefully the engineer will push everything into the red anyway... its very different to a string quartet in a concert hall with excellent acoustics ...

And think about the recordings of classic 60s and 70s rock and metal... on 4 and 8 track tape setups... played back on Dansettes and cassettes pre dolby.


A couple of final thoughts- what do most here use to listen to noise?  And if an expensive Hi Fi, how loud? loud enough to destroy the tweeters?  (happened to me with a Terry Riley track... )