Country NOISE stereotypes?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

There was some talk with friend who made curious question, that how many years it may take, that Finnish noise would not be associated with... shit and swastikas? As big part of stuff that is being done, what was always done, is not really about that. But that may be still impression when Finnish noise gets mentioned.

I mentioned that probably... never? I still occasionally see moments of people associating Japanese noise with bondage graphics. While what would be latest Japanese bondage pic cover noise release? Excluding reissues, could it be mid/late 90's? Haha...

And then as example, when someone says "Italian noise"... one can't help buy think corpses, morbid sex, suicide, deathlust.... And... is it? When in reality Italian noise may be more like.. Lettera 22 and maybe good old turds of Tisbor, hehe..   But morbid suffocating death electronics more like thing dating back 30-40 years in history than being reality of Italian noise of 2022?

Genre stereotypes, have they shifted? In your own thinking or observing how other people feel about what certain countries present?

[algiz]

For me, these stereotypes are always present but not necessarily want to be taken serious. Like with other topics concerning this matter it seems to be some kind of easing the issue or should be taken as some kind of joke. But the end effect seems to include some confirmation of the inner feelings if someone is deadlocked on some bands/projects

[Balor/SS1535]

I wonder how much the Internet might make this redundant or a thing of the past in some ways?  While past sound/thematic associations with countries are still around, they seem to mean less and less thanks to the ease of finding an listening to foreign noise online.  When there are projects directly inspired by Bizarre Uproar, for instance, active in Mexico, South America, and so on, then maybe it is more interesting and important to the noise scene nowadays to follow those connections rather than try to bother with national associations.

[Atrophist]

I wonder how much the Internet might make this redundant or a thing of the past in some ways? 

Most of the stereotypes mentioned predate the internet's ubiquity anyway, I guess. I can't really see any new ones being created anymore, or at least not to the same extent.

[accidental]

This really must be the thread FA has been lusting for since the dawn of time

[Andrew McIntosh]

The stereotypes strike me as more genre based. PE - didacticism. Wall Noise - "obsessions". Death Industrial - morbidness. Drone - blankness. And so on.

Nation by nation - I don't know. I suppose I saw Japanese Noise as made up solely by kooks with little regard for what's considered hip by anyone. Europe in general tended to have the dour, sour Industrial types. The UK I saw as the originators of PE, who set the tone with "themes" and photocopied collages and that.  The US had the more "experimental" Noise makers like Jupitter-Larson, early Non, Jeph Jerman, et al.

But things got mixed up before the internet, with tape trading, and then new comers adopted a lot of themes from innovators and just went along with them. Until we get to today, where innovation seems the exception rather than the rule (I hope no one's going to get shitty with me stating that, that's just how I see it, it's not a judgement).

[burdizzo1]

Well, there was the German 'heavy electronics' scene back in the '90s. It's more or less petered out now, I suppose. I know there's still German acts, but it doesn't seem like the hub it once was...

[PTM Jim]

Until we get to today, where innovation seems the exception rather than the rule (I hope no one's going to get shitty with me stating that, that's just how I see it, it's not a judgement).

Anyone that doesn't like that statement is just mad at it being a fact. Because that's what it is: a fact. Such an unbelievably low level of innovation and it is upsetting. There are definitely people out there taking that constant next step, but it is absolutely the exception.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

And just to mention, I added word NOISE in the original topic ;)  Topic is not meant for stirring lame bickering.

Nation by nation - I don't know. I suppose I saw Japanese Noise as made up solely by kooks with little regard for what's considered hip by anyone. Europe in general tended to have the dour, sour Industrial types. The UK I saw as the originators of PE, who set the tone with "themes" and photocopied collages and that.  The US had the more "experimental" Noise makers like Jupitter-Larson, early Non, Jeph Jerman, et al.

This is what I meant, by Genre stereotypes, have they shifted? In your own thinking or observing how other people feel about what certain countries present? As this thing you mentioned about US, being more about experimental noise makers is most likely a fact (to certain point), but when talking with most people, I have observed, and most likely been part of this, that when talking about AMERICAN NOISE, what it meant, was crunchy, brutal, harsh noise C-60 slabs of pure savagery. Or American power electronics. Stereotypically, it was the blunt, violent, perverse, vocals over noise. Neither of these are true now, but it may still be fairly widely held perception at least among those who were exposed to genre at certain time. When there is a new harsh noise tape out, and someone says it very american.. what it is? We often have surprisingly good sense what it could be, even if wasn't specified does it mean Macro, NFF era, 80's experimental tape scene etc.


Stereotype, a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of (person or) thing. One can instantly observe sort of inbuilt notion of oversimplified image what is noise. Like conclusion that Europe is more industrial and USA more about noise. And I am thinking, is it, or do we exclude the "industrial" when thinking US? From Malignant to Hospital, from Bacteria Field to Annihilvs and whatever, abundance of industrial-esque approach can be found. Interesting for me, is that why one particular association becomes so strong, and can be so long lasting? The original post question was leaning to how and in what time frame this perception seems to change? I know plenty of people who associate USA to either 1995 or 2005, even if what has been happening in USA, is barely that anymore? Will there be 2020 stereotype emerging, where podcasts and forums and such dictate some sort of new oversimplified image of what is happening?

Until we get to today, where innovation seems the exception rather than the rule (I hope no one's going to get shitty with me stating that, that's just how I see it, it's not a judgement).

Anyone that doesn't like that statement is just mad at it being a fact. Because that's what it is: a fact. Such an unbelievably low level of innovation and it is upsetting. There are definitely people out there taking that constant next step, but it is absolutely the exception.

Could it be, due... stereotype? Oversimplified image or idea of a particular type what is noise? Of course some things ceases to be noise. Remains in realm of experimental sound or experimental art music, but no stretch of imagination really makes it Noise with capital N.

Like talking about Australia. I do have some feeling what is Australian noise, but it is view distorted by handful of players from there. I do not know how accepted in part of australian "noise" would be for example something like UBOA? Is it active player in scene, is it regarded as part of noise. At times it is this bizarre digital sound manipulation reminding of Dave Phillips bursting into kind of Wiese type computer noise, but suddenly moments of drone-doom, acoustic indie muzak bits and whatever. Of course one can find certain stereotypes there, eh eh.. but musically, it seems odd that in times when one would expect this type of thing celebrated, I have never seen anyone in noise scene say a word of it, nor there is physical releases? It is something, one has to listen from beginning to end. Not start skipping to find the sweet spots of harshness:

https://uboa.bandcamp.com/album/the-origin-of-my-depression

[Andrew McIntosh]

Yea, I thought about mentioning Macronympha et al, but I tend to think of that lot as part of the wider Harsh Noise category, rather than anything particularly American, apart from maybe making the sound heavier and dirtier. But by the time those chaps were making Noise they were, as I understand it, networking a lot with the Japanese anyway, everyone inspiring each other. That's why I tend to think of Noise stereotypes in terms of sub-genres rather than countries.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Yea, I thought about mentioning Macronympha et al, but I tend to think of that lot as part of the wider Harsh Noise category, rather than anything particularly American, apart from maybe making the sound heavier and dirtier. But by the time those chaps were making Noise they were, as I understand it, networking a lot with the Japanese anyway, everyone inspiring each other. That's why I tend to think of Noise stereotypes in terms of sub-genres rather than countries.

Yet the certain subgenres seems to have country related level. Lets say, is there any american sounding harsh noise in Japan? I think MO*TE might be anomaly, that it doesn't sound particularly Japanese. Not back in 90's, nor now. If one of his blow-out saturated harsh noise piece would come out on american label...

Also subgenres, it feels also there is some country based levels. And to add angle, like why some countries there is clearly leaning to subgenres more than in some others. It may be partly coincidence, but it feels that there is other reasons too.

Stereotypes - also here, not meaning it would be NEGATIVE. It just one perception and way to be able to talk. As said, more interesting to me, is that what would be required to happen in germany, that it would become obsolete to say "ah, yes that new CD is like german heavy electronics" and people would think something else than they have been thinking for decades?

[Andrew McIntosh]

I think infamous labels seem to be an influence there - like how Filth & Violence is always going to be associated with being Finnish, even though not all the projects on that label are Finnish. So it could be suggested that Italy is thought of as prominent in Death Industrial as a result of Marco Corbelli's influence, and also towards more "ritual" sounding Industrial. The Swedes could be stereotyped with the influence of CMI projects ("post" Industrial, Darkwave, fuck, even bloody Dungeon Synth thanks to Mortis, etc), and later on Segerhuva (gritty stuff like Proiekt Hat, Blood Ov Thee Christ, et al).

On the other hand, the French, to me, seem to be known for tape-cut-up/sample based artists like Brume, Le Syndicat, Etat Donnes, maybe even the whole "musique concrete" movement.

These are all just personal impressions. I know those places have all sorts of other examples of Noise but if I was to stereotype different countries' Noise I'd do it like that.

[Bloated Slutbag]

It's hard for me to really see stereotypes as such, more just the way my assumptions and perceptions would shift as I was exposed to more and more shit. Or another way of saying it, I don't think I was ever confident enough in my assumptions to entertain whole-hog stereotypes. At least, consciously. I mean, I suppose I could attempt a retrospective psychoanalysis and try to uncover how I really felt, but uh...

Some early revelations were less region-specific, like the fact that the noiseworld was way smaller than I'd thought, or that digital tools were (then) barely touched.

It might be easier to consider stereotypes as applied to communities of fans and/or critics rather than practitioners. These are pretty much the same people, but as fans/critics they are people who have something a bit more parseable to say. For instance, it wasn't until somewhere into the early 90s and the Usenet that I decided that the most self-loathing folk were from the UK. If ever someone were to be bagging on a UK act, it would be a fellow Brit! This was new to me because where I came from everyone was just seemed incredibly positive all around. Any bitchiness was more on a personal level that had nothing to do with the quality of the work. At least according to my then still very limited perceptions.

I caught a whiff of a similar strain of self-loathing when MSBR and Govt Alpha came to town...bagging pretty hard on your fellow countryperson's shit. That whiff only seemed to intensify when I got to Japan and the opportunity to experience self-loathing more directly. Like the locals couldn't wait to tell me how crap (certain of) their music was.

   - No, really. MO*TE is fucking good. Really!
   - Snort, giggle.
   - And Crack Fierce, man he's the champ.
   - Harr-harr-harrr!
   - <sigh> Okay, so what's good?
   - Inade. Inade is very good.

So okay, these were definite stereotypes about how people in certain countries seemed to perceive (certain of) their own shit.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

It might be easier to consider stereotypes as applied to communities of fans and/or critics rather than practitioners.

In deed! Of course no practitioners themself usually feel or see resembling the stereotype.
Therefore was said in opening message: Perceptions, have they shifted? In your own thinking

Related to stereotypes, just observing characteristics in general, what may reveal something.
In my view, it is not always that looking carefully and as wide and open minded as possible in absolute biggest possible scale one has access to material to study (hah..), will make you see that there would not be shared similarity. If lumping together even the most famous names of Japanese noise, lets say, Hijokaidan, Aube, Merzbow, CCCC, Pain Jerk, Monde Bruits, and on on. In one way, quickest conclusion can be, that these bands have seemingly nothing in similar. Everything is absolutely unique take on noise. Yes. That is fact. But throw in MO*TE, and I would be surprised if Soddy for example, could not hear the way it differs not from all mentioned individually, but also differs from them as a whole?

You know, in S&W forum was topic of regional sound. Difficult topic. Also difficult to articulate, and even more difficult to really anyone to go through scale of material, to be able to spot, what is the "regional" aspect and how it becomes visible or audible. At least nobody was commenting that too much over there. When there absolutely doesn't seem to be found common attribute, nevertheless, there may be found common attribute that many of artists are missing. That is not positive or negative remark. Just observation. Anomalies in the group suddenly reveals what the rest have in common, even if they truly are unique and individual in most angles.  

[Bloated Slutbag]

But throw in MO*TE, and I would be surprised if Soddy for example, could not hear the way it differs not from all mentioned individually, but also differs from them as a whole?

Prepare to be surprised because I honestly have never felt that MO*TE were terribly far removed from the geographical roots. And what roots might these be? Well, the roots from which projects like CCCC and Monde Bruits may flourish.

Let me rephrase. At which point did psychedelia freely associate with harsh noise? Was MO*TE ever a part of that? I would not think these two questions are mutually exclusive.

Into the equation let's drop the name, because it must be dropped: Stimbox. Always part and parcel of the 'merican experience of early MO*TE. (Readily acknowledge that I may with this last be undercutting my own claims!)