Ethics among underground

Started by accidental, May 15, 2022, 04:02:55 PM

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You bought some tapes, you received something suspect, you questioned the seller about their legitimacy and they told you otherwise but you're still feeling burned - yet rather than fully discussing the matter directly with the person in hand and getting things worked out, you have to dilly-dally about it on here in vague terms? I can't see this problem being resolved between us helpless few, and the questions of ethics in underground business or whatever is redundant. Hell, maybe you should have asked more questions prior to buying them, or maybe you misread a listing description and you actually got what you paid for? It's hard to say as we're only going by what you've said, and we still don't know what mysterious label you're talking about to make a rational opinion on the matter. So really, you've got two options: either move on (shit happens, get over it), or get the matter resolved properly. If it's still not amicably dealt with - a refund, a return, whatever - spread the word about what they're doing and name them to dissuade others from hopefully falling foul of the issue.

A question for you: do you plan to buy from the same seller again in the future, knowing you may get a similar bum deal? That's a good starting point as to whether you are happy with their service or not.


weird to me that people are surprised by standard market activities. oh you get ripped off? labels save stock to sell later after hype builds up? this is the fault of the second-hand collector market in both cases. why are old noise tapes worth so much? why are people incentivized to rip off the scene, whether it's thru false originals, scam projects, or hacking social media accounts? it's all money. if we want deregulation and underground then there are no rules, caveat emptor. otherwise we create systems of 'secure transaction' and become businesses. which is better?

edit: we want "originals" because we want a connection to the artist and the time and place of the thing's creation. it links us to them directly. we dont want "products." we don't want "services." we want experience.

edit2: but let's assume we can't go backwards. how do we maintain real experience when the scene becomes so heavily commodified? when we simultaneously demand easy access and also "authenticity?" we rely on the same big centralized tech platforms as everyone else. 


Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on May 20, 2022, 01:13:42 PM
Quote from: Goat93 on May 16, 2022, 06:13:37 PM
Actualy a lot of People really need this kind of Collecting to break even with their releases. The Idiotism to spend insane Money for "rare" Stuff holds many Scenes together and help to survive in the First place. Even selling old Tapes for insane Prices. I know a lot of Sellers, who finance their Label with "rare" Stuff, when the normal Stuff won't sell good.

Good grief, has it really come to that?

Yes, mostly i have seen this in HipHop and Metal Scenes. In Metal is easiest to see the behaviour with selling different Versions of the Same Music in the First Place.

craziest i have ever seen were some Metal releases as "Limited Exclusive Ebay Editions" directly from the Label, next to the limited Edition and the standart edition.


Or Sound Of Pig. From time to time he makes new dubs, reasonably priced, as new tapes. Or , till some months ago he was selling them for 7 -he doesnt sell them anymore i see- , and was very kind to provide me info when i asked him , some are dubbed years ago , some more recent, covers+labels from the old unused stock. Nothing to complain about with these guys !

So price is the key when there is no transparency. And almost always when there is transparency, price is as it should. If you sell new dubs as 30YO tape at collector price, and you dont mention the fact that is a new fresh tape, that's misleading and scam ! That goes for second-hand sellers as well. For example if you intent to sell a 2020 Nails Ov Christ SOP tape for 50, you better mention it, and after you mention it sell it as much you want. I bet you know noone will buy it for 50, so i guess you will set a fitting price instead. But even an insane price on a product with accurate description would still be honest, insane but honest.
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"



Don't really contribute to any online forums, but just wanted to pipe in here as I was made aware that my name ( or, at least, initials ) cropped up in the conversation.
Just to clarify the collection I'm selling online is mine and I am not copying cassettes or making dodgy bootlegs, etc. I wouldn't be so bold as to create new editions of any artists work. I don't even own a cassette deck anymore.
Sure there's a few people on here who have picked up items from me over the last few months without any issues.
Finally - re; high prices. Yea, so what. I've pumped thousands of pounds into records, events, etc over the years so now I'm gonna claw some back. I've a retirement to enjoy ! Also, all prices are open to discussion.



Quick addition ; Maybe the original poster could clarify the label / artist / whatever that he is discussing so it stops others pointing at or suspecting others...


Quote from: theotherjohn on May 20, 2022, 02:34:46 PM
yet rather than fully discussing the matter directly with the person in hand and getting things worked out, you have to dilly-dally about it on here in vague terms? I can't see this problem being resolved between us helpless few,

Maybe i wasn't clear enough in my original post? I'm not looking for your or anyone elses advice on how to deal with or resolve my purchase. I know what was sold, paid for and what was received etc.

What i wanted to hear was others opinion on label printing up new copies of limited cassettes sold out 20+ years ago. Selling them as originals. But turns out most of them are not originals but newly made copies marketed as originals.

Many replies have dealt with this in broader terms. Talking about when something has been kept in print (on demand etc). It's worthing talking about the grey area of the term "original". But in the case i presented there is no such grey area. And that was what i wanted reactions on.


Quote from: nusjut on May 20, 2022, 01:42:30 AM
Hi accidental, I put my speculation/question (S.U. (from the UK, not KO again!)) hopefully as cryptic as possible, and yes, SFCR is a legend, but when ordering some rather highly priced discogs tapes from SS today, you'll get most likely a brand new copy (J-card leftover on "craft paper" + new tape w/o labels). I bought from, and talked about this with him. Just tell your facts, so others can decide for themselves and maybe avoid disappointments while saving some bucks.

I'll comment on this since i've already replied on SFCR. I didn't know who you meant by SU at first. I've bought from SU/UK with total satisfaction. I've also bought from SS in recent years and i have not experienced what you describe at all. But i'll keep what you wrote in mind when doing my next deal. My experience with both of them have been perfect and i'd be happy to deal with them again.