Hypothesis: metallers can't make industrial, discuss!

Started by Phenol, August 11, 2022, 07:35:17 PM

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Phenol

See BDN topic for context. And sorry for my first topic contribution being a negative one, or well, let's see...maybe there's a positive spin...

Metal and industrial have been neighbouring genres for many years and for a long time they seemed to co-exist and have a bit of crossover, especially with metal fans showing up for industrial/neofolk gigs, less the other way around. But they didn't really merge until NIN and such fused terrible Nu Metal with equally terrible dance beat "industrial" (my opinion, and I stand by it!). Fast forward: it now seems like everyone is listening to everything because everything can be easily consumed via the internet and you don't have to invest any identity in it. Okay, that's all fine. I'm guilty of listening to both and other genres as well. But can you make good industrial if what you really like is rock approaches? Do metallers know the meaning of sound experiments, textures etc. Can they appreciate the techniques. Do they know the history. Should they, is it a must?

As I said in the BDN thread, I can only mention a few artists who can do both, these are f.ex. Chad Davis (but his metal output is rather bad, I think...he is a metaller who makes good industrial nontheless), Grunt (Clandestine Blaze is great), and eh...who else? They must be out there, right...?

A good example of metal simply being ridiculous compared to industrial (again, my opinion which I satnd by) is the Zoe Dewitt talk where s/he shows that Hate Eternal video that was allegedly inspired by Zero Kama. I just love how s/he laughts at it. I feel exactly the same. Fucking clowns. Simply ridiculous and trashy cartoon occulism straight from the fucking halloween supermarket consumerist sewer!

Examples of metallers making bad industrial, well, Puissance immediately comes to mind here to name a big name. They embody all the metal bro clichés with a bad keyboard soundtrack added to them. Recently the Denial Of God frontman released an absolute stinker of an "industrial" album under the name Mindflesh - industrial made by someone who is clearly completely clueless about the genre and incompetent in terms of creating industrial sounds, but has certainly listened to Puissance and probably also Laibach and such. Sunn as well, what a neat little package of utter shit. Boring ass drones with crappy horror visuals. I could go on but will leave room for all your "love-to-hate-thems".

So my question is, again, can metallers make industrial music? Let's hear your thoughts!

locustfurnace


Phenol

Don't go ruining this perfectly black and white premise with truth, haha, but yeah, was thinking about how I excluded Godfleh from the discussion. There's probably tons of good metal/industrial hybrids I forgot about. But still - was JB a metaller or an idustrial guy? I'm not sure - he has a lot of dub influences too, and has had such a broad output with so many different people through the years that he can't really be put in any specific category or scene. He might just be the odd one out, who proves all stereotypes wrong.

W.K.

Puissance might be piss weak but those first few Arditi albums will always be classics.
Straight murkin' riddim blud, absolute vile gash

Phenol

Quote from: W.K. on August 11, 2022, 11:18:10 PM
Puissance might be piss weak but those first few Arditi albums will always be classics.


Will have to go back and check. I bought the first Arditi CD when it came out but also got a bit tired of the martial industrial trend that was happening at that time, so I haven't really listened to it since, say, 2004-5 or something like that and never bothered checking anything more out with them. Maybe that was a mistake.

FreakAnimalFinland

#5
(Depending how strictly we talk of "industrial", but if its used in wider umbrella that contains also noise, power electronics etc..)

In a way, since I always had absolutely love/hate relationship with "metal", I kind of agree in a way that it feels likely, that if someone says to me there is metalhead making for example... "black noise", I tend to be highly skeptical. There is a idea, what it really is, when metalheads make noise.

I think there was discussion in WCN podcast topic after Jason Crumer episode. Crumer concluded that metalheads ruined the noise. His thesis was that Relapse doing Merzbow stuff turned harsh noise into... predictable garbage? However, when listening vast amount of podcasts of american harsh noiser's it seemed that there was prodominantly hardcore people who made the types of noise Crumer was skeptical of?

Who are noise guys who listen metal, who are metal guys who listen noise. Or same as makers, is another question. I tend to have also slight skepticism towards for example Black Metal made by "noise dudes". As example: I'll take some boneheaded east european BM any time over neatly done distorted raw boutique BM.

But, and that might fairly large but: when you actually know something about makers, suddenly these all mentioned ideas may look strange. I know few nuggets of information about Finnish noise and Finnish metal, and when you look at it in light of examples, could throw few example:

Will Over Matter, long history of metal bands, since 90's. These days most notable Ride For Revenge
Contortus, long history in BM, as visual artists, listener and also vocalist in band
Totenslaut, I was blown away by his recent material that made into CD on FA. It's done by Satanic Warmaster.
KSNK, ABSOLUTE KEY, AMEK-MAJ, MOGAO, GENETIC WOUNDS, TEMPLE OF TIERMES, UL.TH.Nekrolatria, BLUTLEUCHTE, CLOAMA/STROM.EC, VANHALA, AEOGA, ARKTAU EOS,  and so on and on... they all have played, or currently do play in (black) metal bands too.  If you go into route of not demanding actually playing in a band, but that you just listen and own metal records. You may ask KERÄNEN, MOOZZHEAD,... well, I guess you can pretty much at this point realize where this is going? haha.. So in other words, it may be difficult to find people who would not be into metal, even if they do not consider themselves as "metalheads".

Of course, one could debate that this is reason why Finn noise sucks ass. That is one perspective, but I would think it probably would be so for some other reasons, not that it would sound like Puissance, or you'd automatically know what are the backgrounds of these people. I would guess that you could also make list of guys who have played in hardcore punk bands, and it would be big list of artists too.

If I look around the world, couple names to drop could be AMES SANGLANTES (Akitsa), Niellerade Fallibilisthorstar (Woods of Infinity), Ash Pool (Prurient), and so on...   You could check TAINT, ALFARMANIA or TRERIKSRÖSET and wonder if their passion to brutal metal has made their noise better or worse? Hard to estimate!?

So, the hypothesis thrown in opening message, I get it, and I feel similar natural skepticism. I have this odd caution to think, that as soon as there is blend of industrial and metal, it means more likely NIN + Dimmu Borgir, not BDN + Darkthrone. Would latter be better, who knows, but there is very big difference in spirit and easthetics to begin with.

But, when remember that the same reasons I have love/hate relation ship with metal, the things I hate made bad mix with noise - elements I love, they fit 1:1 into noise, without looking or sounding typically metal at all.
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
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Phenol

Thanks, precisely the kind of response I was looking for. You are right in many of those observations, and it is true that when you speak to people about their taste, you often find that industrial/noise artists and fans like metal too, especially black metal. I had a nice talk with the Arktau Eos guys about BM when we arranged a gig with them in Denmark around a year ago, actually. What I have observed though, is that metallers tend to have some very reactionary, conservative views on how metal is supposed to sound, what the lyrics should be about and how the band is supposed to look. Everything is old school and retro, and if metal is not to some degree retro it will most likely be shit - i agree to some degree, I mean, we all know that if it has "post" or "core" in it it sucks, and I'm sure most of us here know what you mean by "boutique BM", and for sure that is something to avoid.  However, as far as I can see, that conservative mindset has been introduced in industrial/PE (maybe with the increased influx of metal people?) and I think that is kind of a pity. Then again, maybe it was always there.

FreakAnimalFinland

Quote from: Phenol on August 12, 2022, 11:16:39 AM
What I have observed though, is that metallers tend to have some very reactionary, conservative views on how metal is supposed to sound, what the lyrics should be about and how the band is supposed to look. Everything is old school and retro, and if metal is not to some degree retro it will most likely be shit - i agree to some degree, I mean, we all know that if it has "post" or "core" in it it sucks, and I'm sure most of us here know what you mean by "boutique BM", and for sure that is something to avoid. 

I think this is often matter of perspective. When someone says they'd like their metal to be metal, it doesn't necessarily mean retro. You look at the 90's, and a lot of bands would be unique but metal. Varathron, Rotting Christ, Burzum, Mayhem, Strid, Impaled Nazarene, Beherit, Profanatica, Sarcofago, Unholy, and +thousands more. Pretty much everybody would be vastly different, so different that they almost do not resemble each other at all. Same for lyrical content. However, each of them, then or now, there is zero questions whether they are black metal or metal.
If you got now some indie rockers doing showgaze post-rock, with lyrics against hate in black metal or crust-punks doing crust punk with animal rights lyrics, or ambient soundscapes about trans-rights.  I do not object any of these, but I would object calling them metal or black metal. It ain't about being conservative, but simply acknowledging that unless term means something, it becomes pointless.
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

Phenol

The bands you mention were unique, sure, but also rather conservative in their outlook and therefore also unmistakenly metal. Most of them talked a lot in interviews about how Bathory and Celtic Frost were great and contemporary metal was shit and defined themselves against the death metal trend at the time. I wonder if we can transfer some of that same attitude to todays PE scene, for example, or the industrial scene in general? I'd say we could...GO, Con-Dom, Grey Wolves, just to take some big ones, are unique and unmistakenly PE. But how much can you change up the formula before it stops being PE in the ears of today's listener? I think the older guys in the scene had a much more experimental attitude. That meant that their output varied a lot in terms of style, and in that way each release (when succesful, of course) still feels fresh today (this is the case even more with the generation prior to the mentioned bands). Now that genre-definitions seem pretty locked-in, it seems very hard to break new ground without the risk of being the industrial/PE equivalent of the "post" and "core" bands in metal. But that is probably a discussion more suited for the "advancement of industrial" topic.

Bloated Slutbag

I might be misinterpreting the point of this thread, but hey. Let me just drop a few project names, cause I'm too drunk to justify shit. What I think I wanted to say was. At a point, in the past, and it is well past, people just liked shit that was, y'know, kinda hard on some level, metal-adjacent or otherwise. Swans, Feotus, Wiseblood, Crawl/Child, Mascochistic Religion (Toronto boy, me). Etc. And, etc.

Swans - Another You
https://youtu.be/kF_zM6LXd3c?t=464

Foetus Corruptus - Anything (Viva!) (Rife)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwbMudRMrIc&t=88s

Crawl/Child - The Crawling Child
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7e3tpRZ7gY

Masochistic Religion - Drain the Blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKezGd8dkuA&t=150s

Sink Manhattan - Bleakhouse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo19rlk1mFc
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: Phenol on August 12, 2022, 03:29:19 PM
Now that genre-definitions seem pretty locked-in, it seems very hard to break new ground without the risk of being the industrial/PE equivalent of the "post" and "core" bands in metal. But that is probably a discussion more suited for the "advancement of industrial" topic.

This makes me think of an interview or article about Bizarre Uproar that I saw calling his work "post-industrial" rather than simply noise or power electronics.  Personally, I like that descriptor for his more recent works.

Phenol

Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on August 12, 2022, 06:52:42 PM
I might be misinterpreting the point of this thread, but hey. Let me just drop a few project names, cause I'm too drunk to justify shit. What I think I wanted to say was. At a point, in the past, and it is well past, people just liked shit that was, y'know, kinda hard on some level, metal-adjacent or otherwise. Swans, Feotus, Wiseblood, Crawl/Child, Mascochistic Religion (Toronto boy, me). Etc. And, etc.

Swans - Another You
https://youtu.be/kF_zM6LXd3c?t=464

Foetus Corruptus - Anything (Viva!) (Rife)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwbMudRMrIc&t=88s

Crawl/Child - The Crawling Child
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7e3tpRZ7gY

Masochistic Religion - Drain the Blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKezGd8dkuA&t=150s

Sink Manhattan - Bleakhouse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo19rlk1mFc

I only know Swans and Foetus on that list but will check out the rest. The two I know have nothing to do with metal though, unless heavy guitars is the only criterium. Splintered and Missing Foundation could be added to that list as well. But again, much closer to post punk and industrial than to metal. But good bands!

Phenol

As for the post industrial description, that is very very broad. I mean you would bulk Bizarre Uproar in with Coil? Well, why not, I like both, as it happens. Butt-sex and death, haha. But really, everything post TG with some connection to the scene is post industrial to some degree. However, there are possibilities in vagueness, I think, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Zeno Marx

I'm not sure about the OP, but I do find that they tend to suck at making ambient music. They want to do it for some reason, though.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

A-Z

Quote from: Phenol on August 11, 2022, 07:35:17 PM
Examples of metallers making bad industrial, well, Puissance immediately comes to mind here to name a big name. They embody all the metal bro clichés with a bad keyboard soundtrack added to them.

just checked and if discogs is to be trusted, henry moller of puissance & arditi has no metal credits prior to puissance & arditi
puissance are basically in slaughter natives + in the nursery + r/im14andthisisdeep school shooter attitude + incompetent (mis)use of 90s music tech (in the early days)
can't see anything particularly metal or "doing industrial wrong" about that

but yeah, metalheads are generally bad at making *insert non-metal genre here* due to the fact that their understanding of music rooted in metal doesn't translate well to other genres
in the sense that the end result sounds off to experienced listeners of *non-metal genre*
same reason why classical musicians often have problems playing jazz and vice versa