Is noise becoming a safe space?

[Bloated Slutbag]

Not the same demographic being attracted to noise?  The number of people now interested, so you're bound to see different backgrounds and reasons to be interested?

It does admittedly feel as though we've been circling around the same subject, in various concurrent and dormant threads, here and elsewhere, and of course circlings of the sort would hardly be exclusive to noise.

But if noise can be an "empty space into which all musics bleed", as someone once put it, then there will probably be perceptions of it getting  bloodied one way or other, regardless of how definitions are to emerge in the social sphere (which I guess is the only place definitions will emerge). This latest thread does at least make more explicit the desire for noise to be or mean something a little more specific. And I've got no problem with that, just as I've got no problem with Jojo Hiroshige being the king of noise.

[Cranial Blast]

What is a non-safe space?

I'm puzzled by that sentence too, as it's very vague. I'd imagine the word "safe space" has some weird political connotation and argument to go with it, as if the space is ment for everybody and everybody's feelings to be considered. Those special groups whom are supposedly being threatened by "nazis or white supremacists" are the embodiment of the word safe space and are often using that language that eventually becomes synonymous with that type of conflict I've noticed. My opinion of the "safe space" if you will is that it has no true meaning and no real tangible violence, nothing substantial has ever been committed in any space, other then maybe some bonehead who had a few drunken words and perhaps that instance is marginal at best! Also would like to know why anyone and I often like to criticize the black metal peoples for this too, but why on earth would you think there is a "safe place" for music that often rooted in evil, violence, dissentfulness, or down right for the sake to be abhorrently nasty. Isn't that a hallmark or a staple of the genre in most respects? Black metal fundamentally and this obviously can be debated of course, but my personal belief is that "misanthropy" is a prime value of the genre aesthetically and realistically, so should it be to any surprise if there are values that counter that subtext that should shock or surprise anyone...my answer to those who seek a safe space, should seek safer music, it's that simple and I'd imagine that PE/Noise genre would be even more far removed from this sentiment of a safe space. I'd imagine a "safe space" is not even up for debates, as it clearly and fundamentally should NOT even exist, not to mention in what's a predominately white music genre.

[state_of_exception]

The issue to me is not so much THAT THERE IS some degree of boundaries regarding what is acceptable but who ultimately decides said boundaries. Because it certainly often isn't individuals who have a genuine love for the genre.

I'd like to imagine that, given how fundamentally experimental the genre is, people who genuinely love the genre are not so dissuaded by political aesthetics and explorations of ideas. This is largely true in my experience: a quick glance at someone's tape collection sometimes reveals the juxtaposition of a Work:Death tape, next to Anthony Braxton LP, next to a Bizarre Uproar 7".

The problem, to me, comes down the precarious nature of booking shows.

My apologies if I am retreading old ground, but, to me, someone still newer to booking shows, the problem is not so much a matter of content but venue. Navigating the intricacies of booking in a place like NYC is enough to make someone want to kill themself even before adding questionable subject matter to the mix. Sure, you can find music easier than ever now and even discuss it online, but, to me, discussion of noise community is inseparable from the live performance.

It is a simple relationship:

In major cities, ordinances and uptight neighbors make the possibility of apartment/basement shows a near impossibility (alongside the fact that rent in these neighborhoods is increasing to the point where even the original hipsters who priced people out of their homes can't keep up). In that sense, the democratic possibility of setting up a show "on your own" is much more unlikely.

Which leaves the only other option of appealing to local bars and venues. This is where whatever truth to the idea of "cancel culture" exists comes to the forefront. These are BUSINESSES first and foremost which means that their bottom line trumps all other considerations. They are also beholden to their own image and association. This allows for the otherwise unimportant and spineless to call and harass venues in order to cancel events whenever they feel so inclined.

Recent memory has given me examples of artists whose shows were upended because of subjects or acts they COVERED. I know of the attempts at a noise "cover" show (comprised of mostly gay and queer noise artists no less) at The Broadway in New York, wherein the entire event was canceled upon one of the bookers being informed that someone was set to cover Prurient. In the midst of our argument with the booker, Johnny Cash of Sunk Cost tried to use the opportunity to shame the booker for allowing Deterge to play there previously, trotting out the same complaints about projects Jim has put out while conveniently leaving out the edgy skeletons he has in his own closet.

As long as shows can be shut down with incessant whining and there is no considerable loss of revenue, it is not in the interests of venues to take risks on noise shows, cutty or otherwise. It is a labor of love what a lot of organizers do, and I would imagine that, having to navigate the annoyances of the continually offended, the result is not worth the hassle.

Thinking cynically, however, I think part of the reason why shows are dominated by boring ambient and granular eurorack noise is because it is a lot safer to plan a bill around said artists than a project like Koufar which could result in both the venue and organizer catching flak over the "Lebanon for Lebanese" album cover for the millionth time. And given waiting times on alternate venues and arranging transportation, a last minute cancellation could mean you and the artists are fucked.

The result is that for a genre like power electronics, quality shows are much rarer. And for someone like myself, who was convinced to try my hand at PE following an incredible show put on by the folks from Thousands of Dead Gods in the late 2010s, I can't help but reflect on how this affects the growth of community. People will always find experimental music, but participation and involvement relies upon a robust and diverse local scene fostered by easily available and accessible venues. One that won't crumble because a Latino kid wears a Goatmoon shirt.

I was, however, pleasantly surprised by the International Misanthropy show, so obviously it isn't a hard and fast rule.

I would be interested to hear from others who have been doing this for longer if this in any way reflects their experiences or is way off the mark.

[Commander15]

Basically the "cancel culture" is weaponized attention economy. Selfproclaimed "activists" have just found an way to use new media tools as an easy deplatforming tool to oust "fascists" and collaborators out of spaces and venues, may they be either public or commercial in nature.

Commercial spaces, especially those who cater to alternative crowds, are nowadays very cautious about their image. Being associated with the nazis or some percieved reactionary tendencies is really bad for small business these days. Venues, bars and other physical spaces operate locally and their operations are dependant on local support and customers. And i think this is the key to understand this whole phenomenon: you really can't "cancel" big boys, multinational corporations and other actors that do not lean on some local support. It is peanuts compared to the global and national level where they usually operate. But some small independent rock venue or art venue is tied to its surroundings and customers, that are usually local people. It is easier to threaten these small businesses because their existence is dependant on customers. If you can frame some dive bar as suspicious or being your local hotbed of Blood & Honour activities, you can really disrupt their business and activities. It is easier for venue to pull the plug on some obscure noise show than get labeled as nazi joint in social media. That stigma will stick and it will be used against the venue later on, even if the venue performs public repentance rituals.

[Theodore]

Venues, bars and other physical spaces are operate locally and their business is dependant on local support and customers.

So, shouldnt customers already know what the truth is, if their everyday bar is a nazi place or not ? And shouldnt the owner trust his regular customers' 'loyalty' ? I think they both do.

At the end, maybe is all about Can you bring in enough money to make it worth the 'trouble' ? If it is me -the bar- to collect just a little more than usual , well, spare me.

[Commander15]

Venues, bars and other physical spaces are operate locally and their business is dependant on local support and customers.

So, shouldnt customers already know what the truth is, if their everyday bar is a nazi place or not ? And shouldnt the owner trust his regular customers' 'loyalty' ? I think they both do.

At the end, maybe is all about Can you bring in enough money to make it worth the 'trouble' ? If it is me -the bar- to collect just a little more than usual , well, spare me.

Yeah i guess you would think so, but still some spaces / bars have done this. Maybe it is the money issue, but i don't know... It also happens with metal bands and metal will certainly draw more money in than noise / PE. I'll stick to my attention economy / image loss theory.

Like cancellations that are based on some sort of "dubious connections", releases on certain labels etc. They are not criminal offenses in any way but they are been framed as moral and ethical offenses that will taint the venue also if not taken care off by cancelling the show.

[Theodore]

Economy / image loss theory. We still talk about money. To care about your image cause you think you will loose money, the little you make. So, get more money from me and fuck your image. Deal ? Sure !

If it is about image only. Then OK, fair, slowly close down your place, keep your image and die starving.

Sad is these owners of small places fear an empty threat, 'cancellation' . By people who never put a foot in their bar, neither knew its existence, nor they will remember they 'cancelled' it in a couple of months. Everyday-life ordinary people who keep small businness / small scale economy alive by spending their money dont give a fuck about cancel culture.

If we talk about venues that host and live by other music scenes ie anarcho-punk. OK, i get their fear and their decision.

[host body]

There's really no such thing as a safe space, the correct term would be safer space, meaning a space where behaviour that invades personal space or elements that could trigger minorities, victims of abuse etc. are not welcome. Noise can't be a safe(r) space since the term only applied to actual physical space. I don't really see anything wrong with mainstream music venues adhering to safer space princibles, and noise gigs can be held in private spaces where such princibles don't matter.

[Confuzzled]

I don't want safety in noise. To me with this genre, safety = control.

[EXU]

Most of the times when I see people bitch about "safe space" it boils down to being a coward about the repercussions of something (something inconveniences your extreme hatred for something/someone, how rude). That's naive/dumb to me, we live in an era where everyone can voice their opinions without any effort = it works both ways/sides too. It's very easy to be edgy or a moralist in the internet, y'know?

You can do anything and you can sell anything on the internet, you may have to use alternative means and bitching about some big plataform not accepting your nazi project is pretty naive/dumb, get some grasp on reality, that has nothing to do with censoring and everything to do with money. That noise act you worship was not selling his stuff on Wallmart or something, y'know?

In the end I think there's a lot of bitching and being naive/dumb since probably right now there are WAY more active artists and labels dealing with extreme topics than in any moment in history... What more edgy people want? I guess a safe space. And that's extra funny because most of these people live in safe spaces themselves, but that's just me bitching because I don't live in a snowy rich land.

[state_of_exception]

Most of the times when I see people bitch about "safe space" it boils down to being a coward about the repercussions of something (something inconveniences your extreme hatred for something/someone, how rude). That's naive/dumb to me, we live in an era where everyone can voice their opinions without any effort = it works both ways/sides too. It's very easy to be edgy or a moralist in the internet, y'know?
...
In the end I think there's a lot of bitching and being naive/dumb since probably right now there are WAY more active artists and labels dealing with extreme topics than in any moment in history... What more edgy people want? I guess a safe space. And that's extra funny because most of these people live in safe spaces themselves, but that's just me bitching because I don't live in a snowy rich land.

I wholeheartedly agree, but I want to clarify a distinction. People outlining their "safer space" principles, as silly as they are [seriously, all you need to do is spend some time around tenderqueer crust punks to realize how many of their safe spaces are riddled with rapists and abusers] is not the problem. The problem is one of an eroding middle ground.

Nuance is dangerous and I think it is perhaps more dangerous to those with clear ideological stances on either side. The artists to which I am referring to aren't throwing up the Bellamy salute and performing straight up WP noise. They're tackling their own interests/feelings on emotionally and historically charged subjects with varying degrees of success: sure, they may miss the mark completely, but it's generally a far cry from the "calls to violence" which often get brought up. But when relative outsiders can dismiss entire acts as such, it plays into a broader stifling of diversity in the art form. Even more so when one factors in that even collaborating with these artists can bring up a cloud of uncertainty years down the road.

It is unfair to pin the blame of "safe spaces" entirely on the bogeyman of the "Left." I'd go as far as to say the invite-only PEAC shows are a prime-example of individuals too cowardly to speak their mind in a public forum seeking a safe space where their ideas won't be confronted.

The biggest crime, however, is that it just encourages fucking boring noise. The "all-or-nothing" approach to ideological stances adopted by this newer generation of self-professed Leftists can mean navigating a series of show trials when trying to get touring artists to play. It limits the variety of voices and approaches to confronting art and altogether stunts artists by making them capable of shutting out any form of uncomfortable thought. Alternatively, the enclaves of right-wing noise makers foster a degenerating (heh) ability to perform critique and reflect on their art when they can avoid entirely the new generation of zoomers making shitty cybernoise or whatever.

The best comparison I think can be made is with black metal. There will always be a level of exclusion between these two approaches, just like how someone who is a die-hard Panopticon fan will GENERALLY never be caught at Steelfest. But just as left-wing black metal has suffered due to a fundamental inability to acknowledge the contributions of projects like Burzum *despite stealing his riffs*, many newer right-wing NS projects have suffered from a reliance on the same tired approaches to the genre and its aesthetics. For every Vothana, there are about a hundred projects in the current year recording dogshit Satanic Warmaster worship to a four-track and throwing a totenkopf on the cover.

I cannot fundamentally view the outcome of "safe spaces" as anything other than negative for all those involved. It is also just incredibly condescending. It is your responsibility to make sure your friends aren't going to get assaulted at a show due to their race--that is pretty obvious. But minorities and "the oppressed" also want to listen to good art. They're not delicate flowers which rely on white saviors with overactive social media profiles to come and save them. Shit, most of the biggest NSBM fans I know are black and brown people from all over.

But that finally emphasizes the most disgusting aspect of it: preemptively canceling shows on behalf of possible harm posed to audience (psychic or otherwise) forecloses on the ability of "the oppressed" to both engage and respond. I'm no art historian, but I feel confident in saying that some of the best discourse to emerge from the art world REQUIRED the engagement with objectionable content. If someone's ignorant woman-killing project is so offensive, you contribute less than nothing creatively in merely banning it from a scene. It may be ignorant and overdone, but it is still individual creative expression. Why not respond in kind? You're not going to get stomped out by the audience at a show in at Brooklyn bar. The most real form of violence is that you're told that it sucks.


[It is funny too because it is also so wholly dependent on the individual moral inclinations of those who try to enforce scene safety. As a general rule, extreme pornography and bondage/fetish material centered around degradation is a mainstay, but, as evidenced in the response to Rusty and Amelia's Breathing Problem set a while back, the boundary was crossed by consensual performance art. Or Death Squad's "Intent." It is funny that Michael's performance, like some Japanoise live-shows, posed more of a credible threat to the lives of the audience members and yet they're viewed historically with reverence.]

[Cranial Blast]

There's really no such thing as a safe space, the correct term would be safer space, meaning a space where behaviour that invades personal space or elements that could trigger minorities, victims of abuse etc. are not welcome. Noise can't be a safe(r) space since the term only applied to actual physical space. I don't really see anything wrong with mainstream music venues adhering to safer space princibles, and noise gigs can be held in private spaces where such princibles don't matter.

I must have a different view in my mind for "safe space" than others do. When I think of safe space, I think in my mind that it should fundamentally be a place that should welcome any and all opinions and should be void of any clear biases. Many of you have described it as such, but in my own view I think that term has sort of lost it's meaning, or perhaps the meaning has hopelessly morphed into something that just means, safe for whomever is a minority or whatever class is being supposedly oppressed at the moment and now needs mainstream ideals and your moral intervention on the matters, which would be an oxymoron when it comes to music forms that generally deal with often not very pleasant topics or imagery.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Most of the times when I see people bitch about "safe space" it boils down to being a coward about the repercussions of something (something inconveniences your extreme hatred for something/someone, how rude).

I do see this happening too, and I do think that "edgy" stuff that can't handle the repercussion is a bit lame. However, I would suppose it would be far more relevant discussion who are the actually targeted people or projects, what is being done, how and what are consequences?

At least in Finland, polemic that is happening usually comes from non-noise people, or new folks who barely follow genre or oldies who have semi-dropped out long ago. There may be some tension among insiders, but generally that is nothing beyond normal social relations. Usually, it is people with very limited and quickly passing interests who come to moralize and stir shit. Targets are generally not any of the artists or labels who are supposedly guilty, but the rest of people at discussions, organizers, venues or other bands who have not strongly enough condemned something. As example, it is possible that handful of antifascist or at least punk spirited noise artists play great sets at antifascist venue, but instead of cultivating great things in noise, result is still a mess that leads into venue not being suitable for ANY noise shows in future plus the artists are more cautious who to trust. Or discussions that sort of start or evolve into name calling, booting people out, deleting messages, giving guidelines what kind of records you can and can not mention... it doesn't need much of that, until the actual noise folks tend to conclude fuck this.. and we see inspiring noise dialog stop right there. Safe space is such a lame term to be used within that.

Repercussions of something is curious topic, as it appears that the exact people who intentionally seeks to destroy for example local scenes and cause trouble to everybody, are usually the ones who appear to pretend as if they are not doing so.
Like some folks mention above, safe space is relevant for handful of scenarios in real life. You can take it to level of hardcore show where girls can go at front of stage without some meathead stomping her into ground. Almost everybody gets that in underground.

When talking about noise culture, we should rather talk about creative space. I'd like to think all things I do, is generally aimed for creating and promoting creative space. Not just for me, but pretty much to anyone, regardless of what they are.  This includes things one may not be personally fan of, nor needs to be fan or even like. Just idea that noise was born out of this burning desire of creation, ability to create, not only imitate. Involving the imagination or original ideas. I know some will ask so what's original and new about swastika and corpse on the cover, or what's original about shaker and distortion. That can be replied: what is original in dismissing that type of art without even glance towards it? I would rather advocate that resurrection of creative spirit and creative space. That meaning, it is not supposed to be fresh entertainment for ones desires. If one want that, I guess for example spotify AI knows what one likes and wants and can spoon feed more of that. Others can still expose themselves to other peoples thinking and ideas and not insist everything is done according their own specific taste and moral. Within that, probably could happen more creative things and not demands of uniformity.

[Manhog_84]

Two years ago there was some polemic in Finnish Experimental Underground Facebook group regarding FA releases. The conclusion was you cannot promote fascist label and the moderator started removing the posts. I think it was a classic case: the guy who moderates it, doesn't even put out any physical releases himself, because he probably knows as well that NO ONE wants to pay for his goofy sound wankery. He was (is) mostly living in Internet, surrounded by online feminists and seeing his Facebook posts, very insecure what he can say without offending his "social circles". For me this was an epitome of the whole online cancel culture phenomena and what kind of persons are behind it.

[tiny_tove]

I do see this happening too, and I do think that "edgy" stuff that can't handle the repercussion is a bit lame. However, I would suppose it would be far more relevant discussion who are the actually targeted people or projects, what is being done, how and what are consequences?

this has always been my position on the topic. you provoke - somebody may get a stiffy and enjoy, but most will get pissed off and try to silence you. As simple as that. There is no "freedom of speech" or "right to express as you wish" working. Some topics are taboos or edgy, sometimes the artists are simply dumb and do stupid stuff to feel cool in a tasteless and useless way. Either way the only thing i don't condone is direct attack on personal / family level, everything else is permitted even when I find it revolting or annoying. If done properly and with sincerity and intensity it works for me.
industrial/pe has been a safe space for many people of different ideas and attitudes until morons started being assholes at differente levels like antifas boycotting this or that project via internet or storming venues (or at least attempting to...) or "hillinois nazis" type going at gigs getting completely wasted sieg heiling and  harassing goth girls and attacking scenesters at random (most of these were neither actual right wing militants nor scenesters).  The second is a phenomenon that happened in the 90s, not too often, but it did a few times enough to raise attention and giving the bad name and was new for an environment that was not at all aggressive.
BTW I see today is all about woke, keyboard warrios and incels at war with their insecurities.

Going back to Mikko statement. I don't care anymore about provoking reactions, I often did it on purpose, what I state now in my work is technically how I observe the world, but there are concepts like andromasochism, that could be seen as edgy considering the latest things happening in Italy with the rise of women killed and consequent self-guilt of many men being ashamed of being what they were born. It's a very interesting time. We are having Dworking like influencers being bossy on social media and hordes of men crying an feeling victims as well of patriarchy.