Industrial/Noise revival

Started by Thermophile, March 10, 2023, 10:55:29 PM

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Thermophile

What shape or form the term "revival" would take in Noise/Industrial given that the genres are too ill-defined and loose in definition as they appeared in late 70's /early 80's. In other genres is too easy to follow a formula in terms of composition and make the revival happen, is just a matter of intent and declaration.
Let's say to make a punk revival you only need to play a few 2-3 chords in succession accompanied by the usual thematology of the genre in the lyrics. Same goes with genres such as Surf music, second wave Black Metal and so forth, just to name a few of genres that are so clearly defined. And this topic goes as far back as history of music itself. There were clear definitions and instructions in how medieval monophonic sacred music should be created.

Now I know that the noise genre was never dead or dormant due to constant new blood or under the so called umbrella term of post-industrial and the later attempts at have well defined and structured sub-genres such as power noise, HNW,  etc but I think there was never a proper revival due to the above ill defined and divergent paths of the early artists. So whom you will have to revive? Throbbing Gristle? The New Blockaders? Controlled Bleeding? NWW or Skinny Puppy?...
you get my point

I am interested to hear your thoughts on the matter regarding both composition/thematology related to this idea of revival.
Another idea would be to make some concept compilation under this theme with current artists that are immersed in the scene. Part tribute/recapitulation and part mapping of the current environment?
Just an idea..




Commander15

So i assume that by industrial / noise revival you mean  recreation of original industrial and noise estethetics, themes, sounds and general spirit of certain era or specific artists but not going back to only the OG spirit or experimentational approach?

Andrew McIntosh

#2
I think that time was more about open experimentation with sound production, along with an underground/DIY attitude towards making it. Cassette culture came out of that time when home recording gear got more prevalent and cheaper. The way I hear it, people were inspired to do whatever the fuck they wanted with the primitive gear that they had. So the two main elements were a willingness to experiment, and imagination.

Also, I think Industrial at that time could have been anything from a NWW audio collage to Club Moral shouting the "song's" title over and over again over an ultra-simple synth sequence. Personally, I quite like that kind of broadness of definition, these days.

So, if you want a "revival" of the spirit of those times, late seventies to early eighties, I'd suggest the elements are simple gear and sound sources, but an experimental and imaginative approach to what you can do with it. To the point where what's created might not even sound like anything most people to day would associate with Industrial. Whether that's a good thing or not is too subjective to say.

EDIT - OR, an experimental and imaginative approach to the simple digital gear we have now. It's possible to create sounds on a basic computer that people in those days would have only dreamed about. Yet it's still pretty simple and easy to use - easier, in fact, than setting up a huge synth or oil drum in an empty factory. A lot of people can be critical of how easy it is to make sounds these days, but I'd suggest the missing element is imagination and a willingness to experiment. It should still be possible.
Shikata ga nai.

host body

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on March 11, 2023, 11:10:38 AM
So, if you want a "revival" of the spirit of those times, late seventies to early eighties, I'd suggest the elements are simple gear and sound sources, but an experimental and imaginative approach to what you can do with it. To the point where what's created might not even sound like anything most people to day would associate with Industrial. Whether that's a good thing or not is too subjective to say.

At that point in time you had to go thru quite a bit of effort to get that primitive gear, much less release a tape. Which automatically kind of meant that only the people really interested and inspired would actually record, much less release anything. Nowadays the internet is full of self recorded, primitive and more often than not, completely uninspired "experimental" music. So, very much made in the spirit of old industrial as you define it, but unfortunately made by people with no vision or talent.

Commander15

#4
Quote from: host body on March 11, 2023, 11:14:26 AM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on March 11, 2023, 11:10:38 AM
So, if you want a "revival" of the spirit of those times, late seventies to early eighties, I'd suggest the elements are simple gear and sound sources, but an experimental and imaginative approach to what you can do with it. To the point where what's created might not even sound like anything most people to day would associate with Industrial. Whether that's a good thing or not is too subjective to say.

At that point in time you had to go thru quite a bit of effort to get that primitive gear, much less release a tape. Which automatically kind of meant that only the people really interested and inspired would actually record, much less release anything. Nowadays the internet is full of self recorded, primitive and more often than not, completely uninspired "experimental" music. So, very much made in the spirit of old industrial as you define it, but unfortunately made by people with no vision or talent.

I think that your notion is pretty spot on in ways of vision and talent. Internet has brought the means and equipment to the masses but not the vision. This phenomenon could be observed in synth craze that started in COVID years that brought us thousands of bandcamp and youtube "releases" of uninspired and aimless "DAWless jams" and lackluster experimental music, especially ambient stuff and modular bleep-blooping.

If the inspiration is not cultivated by actual listening and examing and immersing itself in certain music and scene but in only the need of recognizition and influencer- and materialism-driven "want to do something" in order to fill the inner void caused by the postmodern world, results are often lackluster or pure shit in my opinion.

Thermophile

Quote from: Commander15 on March 11, 2023, 10:10:59 AM
So i assume that by industrial / noise revival you mean  recreation of original industrial and noise estethetics, themes, sounds and general spirit of certain era or specific artists but not going back to only the OG spirit or experimentational approach?

Yes, exactly. Also, regarding specific artists this idea of revival gets even more confusing as certain early industrial names moved on in different directions pretty quickly...like SPK for example. From the noisy first album to more structured industrial of Leichenshcrei, from synth pop to the dark ambience of Zamia Lehmanni.

Thermophile

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on March 11, 2023, 11:10:38 AM
I think that time was more about open experimentation with sound production, along with an underground/DIY attitude towards making it. Cassette culture came out of that time when home recording gear got more prevalent and cheaper. The way I hear it, people were inspired to do whatever the fuck they wanted with the primitive gear that they had. So the two main elements were a willingness to experiment, and imagination.

Also, I think Industrial at that time could have been anything from a NWW audio collage to Club Moral shouting the "song's" title over and over again over an ultra-simple synth sequence. Personally, I quite like that kind of broadness of definition, these days.

So, if you want a "revival" of the spirit of those times, late seventies to early eighties, I'd suggest the elements are simple gear and sound sources, but an experimental and imaginative approach to what you can do with it. To the point where what's created might not even sound like anything most people to day would associate with Industrial. Whether that's a good thing or not is too subjective to say.

EDIT - OR, an experimental and imaginative approach to the simple digital gear we have now. It's possible to create sounds on a basic computer that people in those days would have only dreamed about. Yet it's still pretty simple and easy to use - easier, in fact, than setting up a huge synth or oil drum in an empty factory. A lot of people can be critical of how easy it is to make sounds these days, but I'd suggest the missing element is imagination and a willingness to experiment. It should still be possible.


Very good points.
I am thinking in the end the only "revival" possible could be to capture a bit (but very vaguely) the "spirit" or "that feeling" either via aesthetics, themes, experimentation, some piece of vintage gear.

host body

#7
Quote from: Thermophile on March 11, 2023, 01:31:33 PM
I am thinking in the end the only "revival" possible could be to capture a bit (but very vaguely) the "spirit" or "that feeling" either via aesthetics, themes, experimentation, some piece of vintage gear.

Hasn't this been done since basically the beginning? I mean new artists using the same themes, aesthetics and gear as those 80s pioneers and making music ranging from vaguely similar to complete rip off?

Thermophile

Quote from: host body on March 11, 2023, 01:47:29 PM
Quote from: Thermophile on March 11, 2023, 01:31:33 PM
I am thinking in the end the only "revival" possible could be to capture a bit (but very vaguely) the "spirit" or "that feeling" either via aesthetics, themes, experimentation, some piece of vintage gear.

Hasn't this been done since basically the beginning? I mean new artists using the same themes, aesthetics and gear as those 80s pioneers and making music ranging from vahuely similar to complete rip off?

sort of, but nothing that is too deliberate or that captures the whole movement. Contrast to the example of newer goth bands who very deliberately replicate the 80's goth sound and even dress or look like those artists from back then.
So I guess the distinction between rip off and revival would be in declaring your intentions and being too obvious as sort of a "tribute" band, lol.


"Hasn't this been done since basically the beginning?"

Genesis P.Orridge said that people were ripping off just one tiny element from TG sound and creating entire subgenres out of it.
I think he meant artists like Whitehouse, Lustmord or Esplendor Geometrico etc. I am guessing he meant that Whitehouse created the whole PE genre by using the TG track "We hate you(little girls)" as a blueprint but William Bennett denies this.
This whole narrative of Genesis could be his megalomania in thinking Throbbing Gristle were so spermatic.
So the answer is both yes and no and feels a bit like being trapped in meta-narratives.
I think only a few of the early artists got the rip off treatment as they came out with a clear formula and distinct consistent style that they continued to pursue throughout their career and that is easier to replicate.





Commander15

Quote from: Thermophile on March 11, 2023, 02:20:59 PM
Quote from: host body on March 11, 2023, 01:47:29 PM
Quote from: Thermophile on March 11, 2023, 01:31:33 PM
I am thinking in the end the only "revival" possible could be to capture a bit (but very vaguely) the "spirit" or "that feeling" either via aesthetics, themes, experimentation, some piece of vintage gear.

Hasn't this been done since basically the beginning? I mean new artists using the same themes, aesthetics and gear as those 80s pioneers and making music ranging from vahuely similar to complete rip off?

sort of, but nothing that is too deliberate or that captures the whole movement. Contrast to the example of newer goth bands who very deliberately replicate the 80's goth sound and even dress or look like those artists from back then.
So I guess the distinction between rip off and revival would be in declaring your intentions and being too obvious as sort of a "tribute" band, lol.


"Hasn't this been done since basically the beginning?"

Genesis P.Orridge said that people were ripping off just one tiny element from TG sound and creating entire subgenres out of it.
I think he meant artists like Whitehouse, Lustmord or Esplendor Geometrico etc. I am guessing he meant that Whitehouse created the whole PE genre by using the TG track "We hate you(little girls)" as a blueprint but William Bennett denies this.
This whole narrative of Genesis could be his megalomania in thinking Throbbing Gristle were so spermatic.
So the answer is both yes and no and feels a bit like being trapped in meta-narratives.
I think only a few of the early artists got the rip off treatment as they came out with a clear formula and distinct consistent style that they continued to pursue throughout their career and that is easier to replicate.






I feel that this goth revival scheme applies to post-punk revival movement in general. The whole post-punk field was so diverse musically that revivalists, or rip-off artists, decided to focus on certain narrow estethic aspects, sounds and overall moods of few biggest acts i.e. Joy Division, Killing Joke, The Sound etc. In Finland it has gone so far that some people do not recognize post-punk influences outside the usual reference points and sounds.

FreakAnimalFinland

#10
I firmly believe that it is not question of sound of aesthetic, but feeling or firm belief that what is being done, matters.

To elaborate little, if you have now guy who spends X amount of money to buy gear that is known to be noise gear. He creates pretty decent replication within genre confinements. It gets loaded to bandcamp, gets few listens. Maybe even physical release, some copies are sold. Even if being satisfied with achievement of creating decent noise, is there presence of almost revolutionary spirit, awareness that what you do matters. Perhaps beyond mere personal enjoyment. And that it is absolutely positive anomaly among generic human interaction/communication?

Revival can mean several things. When you talk about "punk revival", it may be literal definition of revival: an instance of something becoming popular, active, or important again. This can be applied for so trite things like cycle of trend has reached point where playing guitar is cool again.

Other meanings of revival, could be a restoration to life or consciousness, an improvement in the condition, strength. I would say that is what industrial-noise would benefit of. That artists feels what he does matters, plus because it matters, clearly effects his life and decision in a way that "noise" ain't just hobby, but in many ways integrally part of life itself. Which tends to be also by consequence something else than what is the common lifestyle in current society.

How that expression sounds or looks like, is less relevant. Both noise and industrial culture included so vastly different approaches and sounds many didn't even really recognize or feel being part of any "genre" or "movement", even if they clearly appear to be.

I personally feel that there IS and has been going on revival. I feel there is plenty of artists who create works that are really integral to who they are, and how they live, what they try to express. I see it no lesser than visions or creativity of SPK, TG, Merzbow or NON or whatever. They just exists in different time. Those artists would be really good to somehow recognized. So back to trivial "revival", an instance of something becoming popular, active, or important again, let's say like music press would recognize a new name. When experimental sound is recognized, of course it is absolutely great if Masami or Vainio gets press coverage, but what if there would be even one actual music or culture magazine who'd recognize not those obvious veterans but ... lets use Finnish example as I happen to live here, instead memorial of Mika Vainio*, there would be someone writing about Junkyard Shaman! Or Nuori Veri! Or... well I guess you get the point. The fact that many may be asking why in the fuck would music or art magazine need to acknowledge something like that, simply tells how things are. Revival of best things in "industrial culture" is unrecognized, even within noise scene itself. I dare to say. I keep my thumbs up ability to recognize such things will improve.

(*or piece about Lehtisalo, Läjä or Keuhkot, which all are BRILLIANT and always delight to read, but shows how most visible documentation is dragging like decades behind, while creativity is happening NOW)
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Commander15

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 11, 2023, 05:46:26 PM
I firmly believe that it is not question of sound of aesthetic, but feeling or firm belief that what is being done, matters.

To elaborate little, if you have now guy who spends X amount of money to buy gear that is known to be noise gear. He creates pretty decent replication within genre confinements. It gets loaded to bandcamp, gets few listens. Maybe even physical release, some copies are sold. Even if being satisfied with achievement of creating decent noise, is there presence of almost revolutionary spirit, awareness that what you do matters. Perhaps beyond mere personal enjoyment. And that it is absolutely positive anomaly among generic human interaction/communication?

Revival can mean several things. When you talk about "punk revival", it may be literal definition of revival: an instance of something becoming popular, active, or important again. This can be applied for so trite things like cycle of trend has reached point where playing guitar is cool again.

Other meanings of revival, could be a restoration to life or consciousness, an improvement in the condition, strength. I would say that is what industrial-noise would benefit of. That artists feels what he does matters, plus because it matters, clearly effects his life and decision in a way that "noise" ain't just hobby, but in many ways integrally part of life itself. Which tends to be also by consequence something else than what is the common lifestyle in current society.

How that expression sounds or looks like, is less relevant. Both noise and industrial culture included so vastly different approaches and sounds many didn't even really recognize or feel being part of any "genre" or "movement", even if they clearly appear to be.

I personally feel that there IS and has been going on revival. I feel there is plenty of artists who create works that are really integral to who they are, and how they live, what they try to express. I see it no lesser than visions or creativity of SPK, TG, Merzbow or NON or whatever. They just exists in different time. Those artists would be really good to somehow recognized. So back to trivial "revival", an instance of something becoming popular, active, or important again, let's say like music press would recognize a new name. When experimental sound is recognized, of course it is absolutely great if Masami or Vainio gets press coverage, but what if there would be even one actual music or culture magazine who'd recognize not those obvious veterans but ... lets use Finnish example as I happen to live here, instead memorial of Mika Vainio*, there would be someone writing about Junkyard Shaman! Or Nuori Veri! Or... well I guess you get the point. The fact that many may be asking why in the fuck would music or art magazine need to acknowledge something like that, simply tells how things are. Revival of best things in "industrial culture" is unrecognized, even within noise scene itself. I dare to say. I keep my thumbs up ability to recognize such things will improve.

(*or piece about Lehtisalo, Läjä or Keuhkot, which all are BRILLIANT and always delight to read, but shows how most visible documentation is dragging like decades behind, while creativity is happening NOW)

Pretty damn well put!

Commander15

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on March 11, 2023, 05:46:26 PM
I firmly believe that it is not question of sound of aesthetic, but feeling or firm belief that what is being done, matters.

To elaborate little, if you have now guy who spends X amount of money to buy gear that is known to be noise gear. He creates pretty decent replication within genre confinements. It gets loaded to bandcamp, gets few listens. Maybe even physical release, some copies are sold. Even if being satisfied with achievement of creating decent noise, is there presence of almost revolutionary spirit, awareness that what you do matters. Perhaps beyond mere personal enjoyment. And that it is absolutely positive anomaly among generic human interaction/communication?

Revival can mean several things. When you talk about "punk revival", it may be literal definition of revival: an instance of something becoming popular, active, or important again. This can be applied for so trite things like cycle of trend has reached point where playing guitar is cool again.

Other meanings of revival, could be a restoration to life or consciousness, an improvement in the condition, strength. I would say that is what industrial-noise would benefit of. That artists feels what he does matters, plus because it matters, clearly effects his life and decision in a way that "noise" ain't just hobby, but in many ways integrally part of life itself. Which tends to be also by consequence something else than what is the common lifestyle in current society.


How that expression sounds or looks like, is less relevant. Both noise and industrial culture included so vastly different approaches and sounds many didn't even really recognize or feel being part of any "genre" or "movement", even if they clearly appear to be.

I personally feel that there IS and has been going on revival. I feel there is plenty of artists who create works that are really integral to who they are, and how they live, what they try to express. I see it no lesser than visions or creativity of SPK, TG, Merzbow or NON or whatever. They just exists in different time. Those artists would be really good to somehow recognized. So back to trivial "revival", an instance of something becoming popular, active, or important again, let's say like music press would recognize a new name. When experimental sound is recognized, of course it is absolutely great if Masami or Vainio gets press coverage, but what if there would be even one actual music or culture magazine who'd recognize not those obvious veterans but ... lets use Finnish example as I happen to live here, instead memorial of Mika Vainio*, there would be someone writing about Junkyard Shaman! Or Nuori Veri! Or... well I guess you get the point. The fact that many may be asking why in the fuck would music or art magazine need to acknowledge something like that, simply tells how things are. Revival of best things in "industrial culture" is unrecognized, even within noise scene itself. I dare to say. I keep my thumbs up ability to recognize such things will improve.

(*or piece about Lehtisalo, Läjä or Keuhkot, which all are BRILLIANT and always delight to read, but shows how most visible documentation is dragging like decades behind, while creativity is happening NOW)

I bolded the paragraph that resonated within me. I think that it is anacronistic and futile task to attempt to exactly recreate for example Information Overload Unit-era SPK sound and aestethics. But to recreate or reinvigorate that spirit and drive, sense of doing something that matters and is against the dull and uninspired general state of our times, that would be the "revival" that is needed and that is happening right now.

I would also gladly see the umbrella terms "industrial" and "noise" empowered and somewhat purged from unwanted cultural and mainstream baggage that has been applied to them in course of the years.

Krigsverk

The revival that is necessary is the revival of meaning and feeling... music, regardless of style, should stir up feelings in you. I feel that there is so much noise (well, a lot of other types of music too) being made that is just made becuase you can. Blame it on computers, Bandcamp whatever. What we miss is intent, to actually want to create something of importance, something that matters, something that touches you. It has become too easy to make music and it seems to attract the lazy people.
Then again, who am I to say what is meaningful to you?

Leewar

Quote from: Krigsverk on March 13, 2023, 01:28:53 PM
The revival that is necessary is the revival of meaning and feeling... music, regardless of style, should stir up feelings in you. I feel that there is so much noise (well, a lot of other types of music too) being made that is just made becuase you can. Blame it on computers, Bandcamp whatever. What we miss is intent, to actually want to create something of importance, something that matters, something that touches you. It has become too easy to make music and it seems to attract the lazy people.
Then again, who am I to say what is meaningful to you?

There is certainly way too much 'tourism' these days. "Hey guy's heres my black metal / Noise / Dungeon synth project!" etc etc..

Speaking for myself, i make music because i feel completely compelled to, i have to do this. I could probably find any amount of more pleasurable ways to spend a evening than in a cold room trying to make a synth make the sound i NEED it to make. But i dont, and when i am doing something else, like working, my mind is drifting back to thinking of ways to get THAT sound.