underground "counter culture attitudes"?

Started by FreakAnimalFinland, June 25, 2026, 09:51:42 AM

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FreakAnimalFinland

QuoteIn genres that originally was largely about communication, it feels that such aspect has become smaller?

I was recently following the usual discussion where people would wonder, why "noise scene" is what it is. From perspective of hardcore punk type of people, there is strangely ultra liberal vibe at noise scene. As word means a lot of things, note that with liberal, here inclined to be open to ideas and ways of behaving that are not conventional or traditional in the scene OR in society. The individual perspective. Emphasis on individualism and freedom often brings friction toward other types of people, who expect or demand conformism.

Emphasis on unconventional and weird interests that has some sort of individual twist, people may be slightly different thinking than herd oriented people. So the question, why noise scene is what it is, feels almost amusing riddle. People gathering and wondering why conspiracy theorists, sexual deviants, philosophical extremists, esoteric weirdos, all sorts of characters are there, instead of "normal people". Perhaps exaggeration, but I can see the point. Variety of extremes to all directions is visible and often not frowned upon.

Very often, we get to hear that "I am /we are, just normal people". Which may be true, in sense that it all fits into realms of human behavior. But normal as if it would be norm in prevailing cultural hegemony, I'd say not really. Many times fringe culture and unconventional ideas and interests.

Almost equally often, I see reasoning that originators of genre dealt with certain ideas and next generation misunderstood or took it for real and fell into trap of taking face value of some recordings. Which can have element of truth in it, but I strongly dislike the push for normalcy bound in those conclusions. It hints that of course you can have interest in serial killers, BUT, you are supposed to condemn it clearly. You can dive into satanic currents, but must adhere humanist warmth. You can observe conspiracy theories as artistic pursuit, but don't be critical to government guidelines, just stick to the given. etc.

I know, for sure, destructive underground has destroyed lives. It's not all "good or fun".
Still, I stand for opposition of those perspective mentioned above. That substance of industrial culture was not "misunderstood" or that it would be something one needs to grow out and conform to largely accepted ideas. I almost never see this approach. In "industrial culture", notion of strict dichotomy was rejected. We got often people giving two choices, yet we can pick the third. Fragile logic and given options simply rejected in favor or looking it again from another angle. I think that very broad approach of "industrial culture" is what is healthy and neat - regardless if it allows people to come into diverse conclusions and possibly communicate through the art?

I think we see push for "normalcy" in most underground genres and art as vent. Just push out some steam and get back in the system! -type. It feels very strange to me, as if art was only therapeutic purpose tied into prevailing system itself and not genuine process of reclaiming your own life and thoughts?

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Atrophist

Those discussions never seem to achieve anything. They go on for dozens or even hundreds of pages, with participants coming in with their a priori assumptions and ideological frameworks that they somehow require everyone else to automatically accept. The problem is fundamental and unsolvable: you cannot control what other people do, say, think or why they choose to associate with. It's not even that folks don't understand this reality, they seem unable to accept it.

Moran

#2
The analysis of the "normalcy" maintenance attitude is part of what drew me to early industrial. It's kind of interesting to see that attitude become more prevalent in industrial and related cultures. Reminds me of Israeli "shooting and crying" media, though the contrast is less pronounced.

Tribe Tapes

#3
Good percentage of people in noise are those who have an interest in arts but maybe not trained in a classical / academic sense... "outsider artist" on paper is apt but the term has this ungodly-diseased connotation, wherein every outsider is tragic and is a step away from a daniel johnston type of mentality. "What is normal" etc etc would be pointless to ruminate on but I happen to like weird people, I think anyone who has a special interest like music or art is weird by definition.
And the world is a better place for it

Cranial Blast

#4
The collective of different artists ideas, views, ect. is one very noticeable thing within the industrial noise culture. It also creates an interesting tapestry of various types of interpretations from a wide variety of different approaches and or individualstic integrity. I also like to think of the word "liberal" as being open to any and all interpretations, rather then some tag word meaning people who lives for virtue signaling or something more modernly used now. I think what I find most interesting is that everyone seems to be able to kind of understand this notion of liberty or freedom within the genre, like it's an unwritten rule and I think that solidifies the genre as being unquestionably unique, because if everyone has the liberty to approach their own ideas without being bound to "normalcy" or rules, then can only strengthen the foundation of the genre from toppling over.

Vrenndel

I was recently thinking about Plato's cave allegory, which I assume everyone's quite familiar with it. Sometimes I feel like the man who got out of the cave, and sometimes like those still chained inside, but in the end, who really knows what real and what's not, what's normal and what's not. Who or what makes you so sure who's right and who's not? And what if the men still chained in the cave had realised the trick and accepted their fate, or were they waiting and thinking about a way out of there? Of course it was only an allegory, but I do sometimes think about alternative endings, like the famous third choice that Mikko mentioned earlier. Many things don't necessarily are the way they look, and so on...

To take the example of punk music: it certainly aimed for visual, musical and social transgression, but what kind of freedom is even that? Freedom through transgression. Choosing one thing instead of another, and still being trapped between two choice. What if the promise and idea of freedom was better than freedom itself?
It often comes back to my mind this lyric line from Deathspell Omega: "We shall grant you freedom from freedom." I only recently read Edelweiss by Ernst Junger, so this quote assumed a very particular aspect for me. Maybe I got it all wrong, maybe not.

"[...] and why should I care?"

Anyway, I guess industrial culture - music, arts, and so on - certainly allow more criticism than elsewhere, which is certainly great, but can also lead to confusion. It certainly takes some lucidity to process and analyse the world we live in and be neutrally critic about it.
Maltraitance Animale - Honte