Provocation in noise

[HongKongGoolagong]

Collage of review and discussion of CE set:

http://philipbest.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/bad-money-miami.html

Needs re-edit to include this winner: "Oh goodness. Well I left my camo trousers at home and am a woman so was instantly alienated by this total cock-fest. Man tweaks his nipples and licks a photo of a young person much to the 'shock' of the audience and then he grabs his dick. No thanks. Thankful I only went for the one day, think all 3 might have killed me."

- http://www.last.fm/user/sofiesea/journal/2012/02/13/5bvqor_ask_me_no_questions_12

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

"think all 3 might have killed me."

Makes you wish she'd been there all three days, doesn't it?

I wish I'd seen that! I would have given up my chair for Wakeford if I'd had one. I could make it a permanent feature at all Unrest shows in the future. Never mind if he's there or not. For all the laughs he's given me as well as being a Surrey lad, Tony should always have his own chair at my gigs.

[HongKongGoolagong]

"think all 3 might have killed me."

Makes you wish she'd been there all three days, doesn't it?

Hehe, well not really, she's a friend.

The drownedinsound thread Philip linked to has some really interesting discussion -  http://drownedinsound.com/community/boards/music/4346433

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

Imagine that, Momus and Con-Dom in the same topic.

That Con-Dom set sounds incredible upsetting and I'm sad now.

Knee-slapping!

[HongKongGoolagong]

That Con-Dom set sounds incredible upsetting and I'm sad now.

Can't help but laugh at that one but critical discussion like on the drownedinsound site is way more interesting to me than our fanboy viewpoints and the music journalism's attempts at co-opting things (I'm sure The Wire's review will be even more annoying than Liminal and Quietus put together).

While discussing the idiots, spooks and personality disordered of whomakesthenazis with Gaya D at the fest she offhandedly acknowledged the incredible amount of misogyny in the noise/PE scene as a given. As radical as Spinal Tap. Good to see dissenting views from Sophie on CE too, she's a real music fan and not narrow-minded, I don't agree with her and lots of women there enjoyed it but these reactions are always better than uncritical acceptance.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

she's a real music fan and not narrow-minded

Until she visited this three day "total cock-fest" of which she only experienced one.

Do you know what I think Simon? I think too many of you Brits have a blackness in your collective soul which urges you to bring everyone and everything down into its place and it is consuming you as a people and as individuals. Your posts here reek of it and so do many of the comments you've linked to. It has nothing to do with politics, morals, Broken Flag, Fatty Best, PE or even music at all. It's a destructive and at times outright sadistic urge. It's a national trauma which stems from somewhere. From where exactly I don't yet know but I've witnessed it with a degree of amazement over the 11 years I've lived here. One day I hope to understand it better.

Totally off topic I know. Feel free to open up a discussion on the subject somewhere else if you want to. For as grim as it is, it's rather fascinating.

[HongKongGoolagong]

I think too many of you Brits have a blackness in your collective soul which urges you to bring everyone and everything down into its place and it is consuming you as a people and as individuals. Your posts here reek of it and so do many of the comments you've linked to. It has nothing to do with politics, morals, Broken Flag, Fatty Best, PE or even music at all. It's a destructive and at times outright sadistic urge. It's a national trauma which stems from somewhere. From where exactly I don't yet know but I've witnessed it with a degree of amazement over the 11 years I've lived here. One day I hope to understand it better.

Maybe there's some truth in that. Whenever I've returned to the UK from abroad I always hear the moans and complaints in the whiny voices at the airport. Seen people in hideous poverty either homeless in the USA, on the streets in Mexico or fucked in the Eastern Bloc and they wouldn't dream of complaining like Brits do about everything. Start a thread in the other forum section 'what the fuck is wrong with Britain', it would be interesting to see responses!

I thought the drownedinsound discussion was excellent because it makes something which is very much becoming either commodified as art or turned into a safe hobbyist private club briefly appear provocative and dangerous again. I bet Mike Dando is pretty thrilled by those responses, as Best obviously is. There's nothing avant-garde about limited edition releases with the usual 'obsessions' going to a collector's private library, or about being turned into a product by the Dave Keenan/Wire mag/Cargo distribution route to a 'career' at the very bottom of the entertainment industry. Real avant-garde art should cause arguments, problems, change the consciousness, it doesn't make money, upsets parents, co-workers, the law...bleeds into real life with potentially disastrous consequences.

As for BF as cock-fest, the only gay in the village at Liminal also pointed out the paucity of female performers considering the high proportion of women in the audience.

"While discussing the idiots, spooks and personality disordered of whomakesthenazis..."

Referring to people as "spooks" doesn't help the racist image...

Didn't know Brits used that term.

Decent troll bro.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I thought the drownedinsound discussion was excellent because it makes something which is very much becoming either commodified as art or turned into a safe hobbyist private club briefly appear provocative and dangerous again.
Real avant-garde art should cause arguments, problems, change the consciousness, it doesn't make money, upsets parents, co-workers, the law...bleeds into real life with potentially disastrous consequences.

I personally don't have problems of noise being fetishistic and kind of pornographic. That it's not avantgarde & social tool, but like it often was: Titles you buy from catalogue, to experience at home, for your own pleasure. It may test your limits, it may be innovative, but perhaps in style of double fist-fuck or shit eating.  You saw title in catalogue, maybe a cover pic, and thought "I need this". Being hobbyist private club - I don't see anything wrong with it. The danger the "controversy" brings you...  it makes me sometimes wonder what exactly was achieved?

Lets say you hear ______ live or from record and think "oh my god what a offense! Fuck this guy, I'm upset!"
Or you hear ______ live or from record and think "oh my god what an amazing album! This guy is great, I'm inspired!"
The first one may be ok, yet, in the end, what really does it achieve? Compared to being able to inspire and provoke in positive way, not just annoy/piss off?

In my past history, there has been few cases where discussions grew in some forums or mailinglists where I was not member. After first shows in USA, some people got upset. For video involving nothing more brutal than spitting/pissing over female face and slapping her face with pigs tongue bought from butcher. It may sound slightly grotesque, yet at least from my own perspective it didn't appear as something you could get angry? It was more of eye candy. I don't know what exactly could be seen as achievement of this transgression which wouldn't have been achieved from mere satisfactory responses? Because the controversy IS most of all funny and entertaining, not that it would result anything else.

Another case was the projection of "Trite" video at gig in Finland. All sorts of rodents, birds and such being covered with cumshots and close up footage of soon-to-be-dead furry cuties was probably slight exaggeration in someones eyes, but it was related to the songs and pretty clearly explained in subtitles. Still it resulted calls for boycotting entire label and questions why such show wasn't stopped, but was allowed to play. Hard to say if the "controversy" resulted anything what wouldn't have been achieved by simply enjoyment delivered to camo pants & black cap wearing meatheads? Most certainly I moved about same amount of DVDr's that there was people in audience. For the safe hobbyist collectors.

I don't think this was "avantgarde": The material exists as it is, in safe private collections and sometimes in public. Does it make it more, if some sensitive unprepared viewer is upset? If it really doesn't bring up anything more than 100% conditioned responses?

Yesterday I beheaded squirrel. Buried it in yard. Today I dug it up and photographed. And left it there to be eaten by someone and hopefully photograph the remains before it's completely gone. I know it could possibly upset someone if they see it. Should I show it simply to be transgressive? I doubt it. It was made for aesthetic and philosophical reasons, not as provocation. There is not special story behind the act, more than ending life that should end. Most of all humane thing to do, but at the same time, the aesthetics of dead cute animal appeals pretty high on philosophical level. It's also questions of how much one should respect life and in what style that respect happens. I don't need audience reactions for this process, but they may get sometime opportunity to witness tasty eyecandy what was perhaps nothing more than by-product. I may enjoy discussion with someone who can, but I doubt these "now I'm sad" characters work for me in any other level than before mentioned squirrel being their symbol. I can't see themselves being in position of contributing anything very crucial to process what happens in privacy.

The problems with "law" may be exaggerated. They are often good story, but still trivial. Some of my quite recent releases have went through US homeland security, where everything is being messed around. The custom officers of Russia had labeled me as "well know distributor of fascist and anti-religious material" and shipped back supposedly illegal material warning receiver they will get in trouble if they continue this. In past I have had minor issues with the law enforcement due nature of films I was importing and they saw it necessary to confiscate and see if there would be court case worth pushing. In field of "transgressive art", I see these really are just footnotes of artist CV, where scandals buys you attention. In cheapest ways. In end, it is utterly meaningless compared to enthusiasm, inspiration and satisfaction. There ain't amount of beastiality court cases what would be greater importance than having album that musically and artistically mattered.

I don't think best quality of for example Con-Dom is the provocation, but sheer intensity, musically unique approach (Act of Faith 3" - try to call that stereotypical pe!) and intelligent substance. It may provoke, but it may also inspire in highly positive manner.

In short: fans & cock-fests, yes thanks.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

I just keep slapping my knees when reading this thread today.

[HongKongGoolagong]

It was Dando and Best who elicited thoughtful critical responses on DiS, not all as stupid as 'I'm sad now', and I know both have stated their aim is more than simply to sell records to collectors or indulge in some idiotic notion of 'self-expression' but to somehow change reality. The Con-Dom piece in old Freak Animal magazine he barely talked about the musical content or subject matter, but fixated on the possibilities of real free thought, for himself and audience. See also his quotes at the end of that Taiwan video on youtube. Best in Terroriser mag: "Art's not a fucking mirror": the insinuation is that it's more like a hammer. The boundary between negative provocation and positive inspiration becomes blurred.

DiS thing reminded me of this thread on Albini's site in which someone who really doesn't like the sound of Peter Sotos managed to get discussion and freer exchange of views going - http://www.electricalaudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2983

Of course provocation can be seen as adolescent. Teenagers today still love to prank call, leave offensive things in streets...I love this tendency in art. Just my personal taste. I've had all sorts of trouble in performances with various acts over the years, gigs that turned into near-riots, shows being stopped, police called. It's seldom fun at the time but feels great to look back on, and something others remember and think about more than 'solid performance, good night, bought the album...'

I'm a collector myself so am fairly hypocritical in these views! A kleptomaniac Russian houseguest stole my copy of Acts of Faith.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

It was Dando and Best who elicited thoughtful critical responses on DiS, not all as stupid as 'I'm sad now', and I know both have stated their aim is more than simply to sell records to collectors or indulge in some idiotic notion of 'self-expression' but to somehow change reality. The Con-Dom piece in old Freak Animal magazine he barely talked about the musical content or subject matter, but fixated on the possibilities of real free thought, for himself and audience. See also his quotes at the end of that Taiwan video on youtube. Best in Terroriser mag: "Art's not a fucking mirror": the insinuation is that it's more like a hammer. The boundary between negative provocation and positive inspiration becomes blurred.

There is Con-Dom also in SI#5 issue, which isn't so much about music.
Of course this mentioned topic or thoughts they managed to rise, could be their triumph, but all in all, I don't consider it general rule of "what should be".
Perhaps it is based on my own experience. I can't be shocked by noise, so I have to find the other type of value. But of course you're accurate about the blurred boundary.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

Any example of negative provocation in industrial/noise/pe? I ask because I can not find such examples.

Judging by the indignation in that LAME DiS thread it just happened. It will happen again when some undesireable fact blows its arse somewhere. Some people say it's not possible to shock and outrage anymore. I disagree. It's probably easier now than ever. There's a severely weakened younger generation that has been raised on - just one example - the idea of everyone being equal. They stamp their feet and holler at the mearest suggestion that reality might be different. The DiS thread is a really good example. I guess in most ways the masses were always stupid enough to be servile towards any bullshit thrown at them but I doubt in the past that they were such pussies as they are today.

My recommendation to all here is keep doing what you're doing. Hone your skills. Chip out a purpose to what you do and what you're going to say. There will never be a shortage of false idols to pound on. Don't let Hongkonggoolies and his ilk bully you into submission. Assume your place and keep walking beside them. Choose your island and all that. It clearly bothers them.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

When may we talk about provocation? People who are seriously involved in such music / art which destroy status quo mainstreem culture and civilization, in my opinion, shouldn't consider it any actions as examples of postitiv or negative provocations.

I would classify "nagative provocation" by definition: to anger, enrage, exasperate, or vex.  which results people to be... well, shocked, provoked. To result reaction, which most of all is like pavlov dogs barking. They see word "nigger" in screen of stage and at 2012 with all recources at their hand they are saddened, confused, outraged. Reaction wasn't even what was actually said nor they have any real interest to further. It is most of all their right to be upset.

I would classify "positive provocation" by definition: to stir up, arouse, or call forth (feelings, desires, or activity). Which results people to be awaken from dullness and dormant state. To result reaction, which is not about your right to be upset, but to find out, to observe, to study. Be enlightened, be awaken.

Lets say, you are listening to Militia back in the day when it wasn't sure if they are "fascist" or what. Very vague, very militaristic materials. You could be upset. You could rant about camo pants and boneheads taking over your previously confortable experimental music scene. Or, you can actually take a look for next release. Check out reference to Bakunin and perhaps go far enough to get book to study some revolutionary russian thinking.

Needless to say which I personally consider better. I don't find provocation worth much, if people are unable to awake, only to remain briefly annoyed. Then even if project can only awake couple fanboys or at worst perhaps merely the creator himself, it's already better.

Why the boundaries could be blurred? Because the same content and action can result the opposite on intent - or simply both at the same time?

[HongKongGoolagong]

Don't let Hongkonggoolies and his ilk bully you into submission. Assume your place and keep walking beside them. Choose your island and all that. It clearly bothers them.

WHAAAT? I'd rather hear the most tired and lazy PE/noise or drone/lo-fi than the shit which gets pumped out of the radio. And I have more respect for any independent creator of sound than for those who sit and watch the X Factor. I simply expressed my admiration for the way Con-Dom and CE achieved those negative reactions. Good old fashioned troublemaking.  I had such a great time at the one day of BF I went to, really wish I'd seen this Con-Dom set too. I'm not sure I would agree that the younger generation is "severely weakened" and brainwashed, I've worked with some great people in their early twenties lately. DiS is a mainstream music discussion site so attracts people who haven't been exposed to industrial culture or considered music/performance as art and who in some cases were intrigued and willing to engage and think rather than kneejerk responses.

I would classify "nagative provocation" by definition: to anger, enrage, exasperate, or vex.  which results people to be... well, shocked, provoked. To result reaction, which most of all is like pavlov dogs barking. They see word "nigger" in screen of stage and at 2012 with all recources at their hand they are saddened, confused, outraged. Reaction wasn't even what was actually said nor they have any real interest to further. It is most of all their right to be upset.

I would classify "positive provocation" by definition: to stir up, arouse, or call forth (feelings, desires, or activity). Which results people to be awaken from dullness and dormant state. To result reaction, which is not about your right to be upset, but to find out, to observe, to study. Be enlightened, be awaken.

Lets say, you are listening to Militia back in the day when it wasn't sure if they are "fascist" or what. Very vague, very militaristic materials. You could be upset. You could rant about camo pants and boneheads taking over your previously confortable experimental music scene. Or, you can actually take a look for next release. Check out reference to Bakunin and perhaps go far enough to get book to study some revolutionary russian thinking.

Needless to say which I personally consider better. I don't find provocation worth much, if people are unable to awake, only to remain briefly annoyed. Then even if project can only awake couple fanboys or at worst perhaps merely the creator himself, it's already better.

Why the boundaries could be blurred? Because the same content and action can result the opposite on intent - or simply both at the same time?

Great post, can't disagree with a word of that.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

I may have misunderstood you and if I have you have my apologies. We can start over.

To further derail this thread (or maybe not) I've never seen the conflict between commercial pop music and the so called underground. I have no insight into the mechanics of the pop world but I've seen enough fakery, whoredom, dishonesty and nastiness in our part of the duck pond to fill me with disgust. X-Factor, to use an example, is totally outside of what we do and therefore has no effect on us. Some of the dire shit that was given a pass at the BF fest is on the inside and therefore its detrimental effect is real and possibly even accute.