CHANGE OF CLIMATE IN NOISE / SOCIAL FACTOR / GENERATION ME

Started by ARKHE, May 28, 2012, 02:56:19 PM

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FreakAnimalFinland

QuoteThe Russian people (Russian: русские, russkiye) are an East Slavic ethnic group native to Russia, speaking the Russian language and primarily living in Russia and neighboring countries.
The English term Russians is also used to refer to the citizens of Russia, regardless of their ethnicity

With "russians", I didn't mean who ever happens to live in borders of state with same name of some specific time. Perhaps this is the sign of cultural difference already. What means to say Russkiey or Russian. Countries with no ethnic uniformity of any kind, couldn't probably get saying "Russians" could actually mean original ethnic group and their native culture rather than some artificial state or "economy-area" with whoever happens to be there.
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ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2012, 10:09:24 AM
With "russians", I didn't mean who ever happens to live in borders of state with same name of some specific time. Perhaps this is the sign of cultural difference already. What means to say Russkiey or Russian. Countries with no ethnic uniformity of any kind, couldn't probably get saying "Russians" could actually mean original ethnic group and their native culture rather than some artificial state or "economy-area" with whoever happens to be there.

This doesn't work. Origin Russians have conquered other nations since over 1000 years. Most of them didn't get back their independence. Who is a a true Russian now? You aren't able to prove it, and I don't say about Caucasian/Chechnya examples. I say, for example about origin residents from Murmansk and Yakutsk or Khabarovsk. There are cultural/mentality differences between them. Besides, when you say about "American Mentality", you think only about Europeans, or Indians, Afro-Americans, Mexicans too?

FreakAnimalFinland

You don't have to believe me. We would not have the globally known and accepted term "russian mentality" in our languages, if it was some imaginary prejudice I simply made up.

You can't deny existence of Russian culture, by russian people. You can't deny the nation having it's own identity and self image it accepts and lives within. You can't deny even the genetic uniformity which is much more than lets say in America. Check out the link provided earlier or read books on subject matter or talk with russians. Exceptions don't remove the rule. They underline it's existence. Obviously culture is not total vacuum. Russians have conquered AND they have been conquered during the years. It means very little in this discussion when we talk about mass not individual person.

But I guess we should wait someone from Russia to say something, hah...
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ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2012, 10:50:30 AM
You don't have to believe me. We would not have the globally known and accepted term "russian mentality" in our languages, if it was some imaginary prejudice I simply made up.

You can't deny existence of Russian culture, by russian people. You can't deny the nation having it's own identity and self image it accepts and lives within. You can't deny even the genetic uniformity which is much more than lets say in America. Check out the link provided earlier or read books on subject matter or talk with russians. Exceptions don't remove the rule. They underline it's existence. Obviously culture is not total vacuum. Russians have conquered AND they have been conquered during the years. It means very little in this discussion when we talk about mass not individual person.

But I guess we should wait someone from Russia to say something, hah...

I don't deny anything. I read your linked essey and other works on this topic. I know that many people want to describe reality and impute its some rules. I only guess that it has high level of generalization/mistake. I could prove it using my nation, so called "Polish Mentality". Of course, there are "smart" people who say that Poles are drunken catholics, hard-working (especialy overseas), who are even contaminated by so called "homo soveticus", and many, many other things. For me this is something like horoscope, people can arrogate some hallmarks of zodiac signs for others who were born in simillar time. Bullshit. Yes, anybody can't deny that over 90% of Poles are catholics (all of them who were baptised), but why nobody doesn't write that only 5% of them read the Bible at all and regularly goes to church? This same doubts concern other countries, with Russia or USA. I know that many people would like to remain their culturaly independent and unique nation in these globalization postmodern times, where all is mixing up. Unfortunately, this is only wishful thinking.

ImpulsyStetoskopu

#64
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2012, 10:50:30 AM
You can't deny existence of Russian culture, by russian people.  

This is truism. Every country has its culture. Russian culture isn't created only by origin Russian people but by all residents of conquested areas in Russia too. Besides, the most valuable works in art, from Russia or other countries, are these what don't touch typical, national/cultural  problems but what are universal for everybody in this world. For example: Tarkovsky's movies, Stravinsky's music, Kandinsky's paints or Pielewin's novels.

FreakAnimalFinland

Russian mentality, as explained in those references, is something way beyond vodka, beyond orthodox faith, beyond soviet man, beyond many things. And possibility to adjust into new forms is that its made compatible with "russian mentality". But perhaps enough of this topic since it is kind of irrelevant, as it was meant only as reference to point out difference in influence of environment. How same things could not been enforced in... lets say France?

As example we could simply use Japanese noise, and japanese culture as reference too. How Japanese noise manifested itself very differently. Even in its vast diversity of sound.

I think bottom line appears, that you are worried of generalization & mistake what would misinterpret the individual. Lump him into group he doesn't feel being in. And I really don't share this worry.
We all know that USA is not just country. We know Russian ain't really country either. They're more of empires with bigger diversity than whole europe counted together. Still, as explained in just about every message, it's ideological choice to reject "person" or "individual" in his banal form. This includes rejecting the necessity to treat every person as individual - which they most often are not. They can be looked simply as perfect example of some mass where there are more common traits, common influenced, common motivators, than little differences. From that background (through acceptance or rejection) they may rise.

One may argue our gender, racial, national and cultural traits are imaginary, and simply people following the expectation (or observer counting only the expected + ruling out different) is what makes them true. Or that men and women are trapped in imaginary gender roles? And it argument means what? That people could be different, but aren't, under cultural reasons they couldn't really escape?
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FreakAnimalFinland

That being said - I don't mean one could not even dedicate his whole life to get away from such restrictions. It is perhaps one of most traditional elements of ("alternative") art, but about how successful this has been - is up to debate!
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ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2012, 12:23:51 PM

As example we could simply use Japanese noise, and japanese culture as reference too. How Japanese noise manifested itself very differently. Even in its vast diversity of sound.


But I don't understand this conclusion. If in Poland aren't unique / original noise/PE projects it will mean that Poland hasn't its "mentality" or its "culture"?

FreakAnimalFinland

I have had no possibility to observe how Polish culture affected industrial movement, but it has certainly effected polish black metal or polish anarcho punk type of things, which stood strong and unique especially in peak of the specific subculture. Certainly there was more than just random cases occurring, why polish BM was what it was, while Czech or Slovakia for example hardly had anything similar. And why Polish BM thematically and sonically was so different from Norway, Sweden, Finland, USA, etc... Where influence of folk music, myths, countrys political, social and religious history and many others molded it very different.

The more there are examples, the easier it becomes to see things. You can't make much conclusion based on one or two bands. Based on "movement", especially happening in specific moment in specific location, by specific group of people, you can observe the common traits and reasons.

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Andrew McIntosh

#69
This -
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 27, 2012, 09:47:14 AM
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 27, 2012, 06:11:49 AM
Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2012, 05:25:41 AM(It really amazes me how much self-loathing and mental illness gets expressed in the lyrics of some music- how do these people ever feel confident enough to produce/release anything???)

It has been discussed here before that expressing ideas and concepts in music is not the same thing as actually holding/acting upon those ideas and concepts in life. Also, people have varying degrees of self confidence to achieve, or not achieve, things they want to do. And also, some people are just so damn driven to express their feelings they just have to do it anyway.

If somebody creates lyrics with serial killers topics it doesn't mean that this artist must kill in reality to prove his authenticity. But. His authenticity is questionable when he expresses mainstream values in ordinary life, when he feels very good amongst so called normal people, parents, who wants to co-create society structures, who is condemning every murder, acts of terror from real life without willing to understand motives, and so on.

It's known that in art all things are redrawing by artists but those things should describe TRUE soul of artist, his real views and real relation to environment.

- probably should be in this thread, since this has been touched upon here and has nothing to do with what Brad was on about. In brief, I don't agree. "Authenticity" of a respective artist is not something I consider when digging music. I don't accept your definition of authenticity in this case anyway, but you're welcome to it and I don't want to change your mind about it. And I have no interest in an artist's "TRUE soul", in most cases, since such an abstract concept can be defined in any old way. Artists can do what they want, I'm as interested or un-interested as the case may be.

Any artists' "authenticity" lies in the art they create.

Don't mis-understand me - I can see it's a big issue for you, and that's fine. Perhaps the issue of "authenticity" could be discussed further, by yourself and others. But you were getting well off topic on Brad's thread so it's probably to either take it here or start another thread.
Shikata ga nai.

ImpulsyStetoskopu

#70
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 27, 2012, 04:15:25 PM
Don't mis-understand me - I can see it's a big issue for you, and that's fine. Perhaps the issue of "authenticity" could be discussed further, by yourself and others. But you were getting well off topic on Brad's thread so it's probably to either take it here or start another thread.

Ok, no problem. This isn't important for me where I can talk about that.


Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 27, 2012, 04:15:25 PM
And I have no interest in an artist's "TRUE soul",
Any artists' "authenticity" lies in the art they create.

I have no interest in artist 's soul too (excluding few cases). Duo to this case once I wrote that I am not interest in reading interviews or closer knowing face-to-face people who create music which I like. Usually, then I disillusioned (disappointed?) with those artists. I prefer to enter into illusion of art, not artists views which he claimes in interviews or in conversation with me. Luckily there are some artists who have been consequent for many years, and their life is such like their art on level of some important values.

jangbi08

This article gave me a clear idea of the philosophy behind power electronics projects. And also gave me an answer to why modern American noise had such a different approach compared to others.l
Whats funny is hardcore punk bands that adopted the power electronics attitude
(Bands like breathing problem related Total Abuse) were called off as
Mysterious Guy hardcore and some scenr people differentiated them and didnt accept them . The cause of this might be the mundane nature of hardcore or punk in general and its funny how the sitiation is backwards. What do you think of the Mysterious Guy hardcore phenomena and people calling it that way?

Zeno Marx

Quote from: Peterson on July 01, 2012, 11:24:54 PM
I think it's kind of interesting that Sex Vid were released on Dom America, but I do not like that band, very much. I guess I could rant for a bit about these sorts of people, they seem to dominate the so-called fringes of any scene, exploiting whatever "old-school" stuff they can in order to seem more informed and elite.
Maybe you know something I don't know about the guy in the band and behind Dom America, but if not, I believe you're off the mark with this particular example.  I'm not here to defend him.  Our perspectives aren't often truth.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

bitewerksMTB

#73
I had to google the so-called 'mysterious guy' thing. Did the term come from someone in one of those bands or their critics?

Use to be curous about Burmese but was always leery about'em so never really checked anything out. Seems like I may have d/l'd a split, maybe with Fistula? Didn't save it & can't remember anything.

I think the Dom America label name was purchased after St. Degeneratus moved to Thailand. I've never heard Sex Vid but remember thinking it was odd they 'on' Dom Am. Still hope he's planning to reissue "Youthful Pleasures"!

martialgodmask

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on July 02, 2012, 12:34:48 AM
I had to google the so-called 'mysterious guy' thing.

Same here. Seems like little more than a few minutes I'm not going to get back! Interesting though to see a (loose) connection to Collective Zine and not altogether surprising given my past interaction with/awareness of them.