Quality control

Started by hsv, October 01, 2012, 12:04:29 PM

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heretogo

But what does the above have to do with the existence of quality in music? Of course there will always be obscure bands that fanatics consider to be better than the "big names", for a variety of reasons. And just because stars emerge within genres does not mean that the concept of quality is flawed, even if the stars do not always produce unambiguously better music than everybody else. Important point is not that Philip Best kicks ass over everyone else but that he seems to produce (on average) quite inspiring and powerful music. Better than the average PE if you ask me.

FreakAnimalFinland

Yeah, I was just about to say, that great music existing, doesn't mean there couldn't be other great bands. It should not be about comparing which is better quality, Beatles or Rolling Stones, but what is the necessary of some label to put out 3rd rate Beatles copycat project CD out, without demanding them to make one single good song to album? That it might be guys with badly programmed drums, out-out tune vocalist, shitty guitars - and yet they insists this is just as good as Beatles.

It's not dilemma of what amazing band according to your taste is the best and what is the ultimate hierarchy of top-10 of noise (hah). Should be very clear if you read any message written before what "quality control" means?

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ImpulsyStetoskopu

#32
Quote from: heretogo on October 03, 2012, 11:14:55 AM
But what does the above have to do with the existence of quality in music?

But again I will ask. What is criteria of (good) quality of music? Time, when it was made or aesthetic factors of this music? If the second one, what are the factors, are you able to define those? Or maybe these criteria come from mouth of authorities? If Mikko Aspa and other well known journalist, and maybe William Bennett will say that an act called "ABCDEFEGHIJ" is good (or not good) the rest of the world must think the same? Do you need to be a sheep? Do you need to have a shepherd? Do you need a torchlight? Aren't you able to decide which music is good? And what when your opinion will be different to Mikko or William Bennett? Then you will not issue a new, the first or second record of debuted artist?


Quote from: heretogo on October 03, 2012, 11:14:55 AM
Important point is not that Philip Best kicks ass over everyone else but that he seems to produce (on average) quite inspiring and powerful music. Better than the average PE if you ask me

But this is only your opinion. Are you able to belief that there are people who think different? There are people for whom BEST isn't inspiring and they don't think that he did powerful music. And what then?


This doesn't mean that I want to ignore journalists or anybody who wants to write about music. I prefer only writing about WHY music is good or bad (in reviewer's opinion), but not writing WHAT is good or bad.

FreakAnimalFinland

#33
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on October 03, 2012, 11:37:08 AM
I prefer only writing about WHY music is good or bad (in reviewer's opinion), but not writing WHAT is good or bad.

But exactly this IS, the quality control from labels perspective:
You hear master, and you know why music is good or bad, and therefore if it is bad you don't release it. Or you ask artists to improve. And if it was improved to level you're satisfied and was released or it was rejected, the result is:
Labels catalogue is maintained with quality control.

If you did think this release isn't so good, and it has plenty of shitty things what could be better, but you do end up releasing it, that means not high quality control. YOU decide the quality, what was good and what was bad, and you chose to accept that it's bad, and who cares. I have heard this countless of times. Labels may not say it in public (and why would they if they have product to sell to you), but they may quite quickly confess the album they put out, wasn't that good. When we acknowledge labels do not necessarily release stuff what lives up even their own personal standard what they really spend time listening to, we realize it certainly won't live up to listeners standard beyond luck of listeners easy satisfaction.
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heretogo

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on October 03, 2012, 11:37:08 AM
But this is only your opinion. Are you able to belief that there are people who think different? There are people for whom BEST isn't inspiring and they don't think that he did powerful music. And what then?

Yeah, it's my opinion. That's the way it goes with art and many other things, absolutes tend not to exist. Some people like tube amps, some prefer solid state. I'm not too keen on Mozart, much prefer Bach and Sibelius. Some like espresso, others rather drink filtered coffee made of less dark blends. And yet some type of quality is generally accepted to exist in all these things. There is shit coffee and there is good coffee. There are cheap & nasty amps and wonderful ones. And so on and so on. My own taste and standards obviously dicatate what is good (for me) but I'm not unique in this world, many people will share my taste to some degree at least. Personal standards are not universal but there is quite a bit of overlap with other people.

If quality does not exist then why not just pick any random noise (or rock for that matter) and enjoy it? One is as good as the other so why bother?

ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on October 03, 2012, 11:36:46 AM
It should not be about comparing which is better quality, Beatles or Rolling Stones, but what is the necessary of some label to put out 3rd rate Beatles copycat project CD out, without demanding them to make one single good song to album?
It's not dilemma of what amazing band according to your taste is the best and what is the ultimate hierarchy of top-10 of noise (hah). Should be very clear if you read any message written before what "quality control" means?

Yes, I know what is the main thread, but in the meantime, I think, was touched another problem.
I can't imagine situation when owner of label decides to issue music which doesn't satisfy his ego (or super ego). It doesn't mean if there are bad one or 9 tracks from ten tracklist. I can't imagine also situation when I (as owner of label) must clarify why some tracks are good but or not and I demand to change tracklist or modify bad tracks. I could feel very strange if after my suggestions  composer changed some parts of his music/tracks.

ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: heretogo on October 03, 2012, 12:11:05 PM
If quality does not exist then why not just pick any random noise (or rock for that matter) and enjoy it? One is as good as the other so why bother?

It demands on priorities. If some label wants to be big mirror of time, such as SOUND OF PIG, ZH27, EE TAPES and many more, probably they will not focus on quality of music so much. I don't know their true intentions but I could understand such status of label.

FreakAnimalFinland

#37
Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on October 03, 2012, 12:17:26 PM
I can't imagine also situation when I (as owner of label) must clarify why some tracks are good but or not and I demand to change tracklist or modify bad tracks. I could feel very strange if after my suggestions  composer changed some parts of his music/tracks.

I have done this many times. There is no Ramirez related releases on FA which would be issued "as it was". It's ALL his work, all his achievements. I merely wasn't satisfied on first version of master and demanded more. And curiously, I see many of those releases mentioned when people talk of his best stuff. Did I do damage to artistic integrity when demanding more or enabled artists to reach higher? I suspect latter.

Same goes for several others. I think it's good process for new stuff, but for re-issues - not really. No use to start re-making already published one.

Obviously we're not here to set rules who to run labels, but I'm guessing especially small labels putting out some friends stuff, have never considered alternative way of doing things.
I think it can be good to remind, huge majority of amazing classics of any art happened in collective environment of some sort. It included artists discussing with colleagues, it included teams, collectives, it included exhibition curators having their hand in presentation. In music, it included studio guy, possibly producers, possibly label boss, etc etc.  This was still valid for big part of "independent" music not long ago. Even the most stubborn isolated artist would reveal to be subject of similar process which polished the diamond of their creation.
But at some point this "authenticity", the noble "artistic integrity" seemed to take some kind of holy dogmatic status, where real deal is supposedly found from pure works with no outside influences. And as result what can we see? I wouldn't say it generally has meant better releases. If even the greatest artists could brainstorm with colleagues to aim to better results - I find it amusing some guy with couple pedals and shakebox would be insulted about valid suggestion this ain't as good as it could be. Or friend of yours, could get mad to you if you say it's pretty good, but do better and I might release it. It has happened to me several times, and I have gotten used to it and consider 1 annoyed artists be much less of problem than 100 disappointed listeners.
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ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on October 03, 2012, 12:47:19 PM
If even the greatest artists could brainstorm with colleagues to aim to better results - I find it amusing some guy with couple pedals and shakebox would be insulted about valid suggestion this ain't as good as it could be. Or friend of yours, could get mad to you if you say it's pretty good, but do better and I might release it.

Yes, this is healthy situation. As we see, all depends on context and, how is close friend relation between owner of label and composer. Generally speaking, I prefer the situation when influences, in natural way, are received by artists. If it is forced by other people who aren't in friend relation, when is a task - releasing a record, then my perception doesn't accept it.

Goat93

Quote from: Ritual on October 02, 2012, 07:03:33 PM
Quality control isn't (or shouldn't be) about picking big names over unknown ones. Nor is it about telling people (the consumers) what is good and what is not. It is an internal process within the label where you make sure that, once you've decided to release a certain artist's work, the release is relevant. That it is a release that needs to be made available, that isn't weak when compared to artist's other output, or label's output, for that matter. The choice which artist to release, I guess, would be more based on personal taste, but quality control of the material would be more a case of comparing to the artist's previous work, how the material holds after a lot of listenings, etc. It will never be completely free of personal bias, but it's a lot more objective than saying "this artist is good, but that artist sucks".

I feel artists should have a similar quality control process. But, in the end it is the label that is responsible for what it releases.

Most of the labels I tend to follow are ones that I either know, or think, have quite high standards when it comes to quality, and who aren't afraid to tell artists they can do better, if that's the case.

but where do you set the quality control, one label don't do it and another do? Isn't this a natural follwoing from the music itself? you like the music and want to release it, you like the music but think it should be mixed or you dislike it totaly. all are just your own views about it but where are the proofs about the quality control and are you really sure that it fits in the end? it sounds to me if someone sitting about the material and is thinking if the background of the frontcover should be pink or babyblue. its totaly ok with that, . if someone want to change things, he surely could, but i don't see any reason why others should do so,too or why others should be lower quality, only cause they don't interfere with the artists...

Ritual

Quote from: Goat93 on October 03, 2012, 04:15:32 PM
but where do you set the quality control, one label don't do it and another do? Isn't this a natural follwoing from the music itself? you like the music and want to release it, you like the music but think it should be mixed or you dislike it totaly. all are just your own views about it but where are the proofs about the quality control and are you really sure that it fits in the end? it sounds to me if someone sitting about the material and is thinking if the background of the frontcover should be pink or babyblue. its totaly ok with that, . if someone want to change things, he surely could, but i don't see any reason why others should do so,too or why others should be lower quality, only cause they don't interfere with the artists...

If a label releases a work by an artist, despite knowing that the artist can do better and that this release will not be particularly rememberable work by this artist, then yes, I would say it's poor quality. If I had a label, I wouldn't like to operate like that. I can't see any point in spending money and time releasing stuff I personally don't feel strongly about. And, of course, you don't have to be an arse when giving criticism to the artist. It is fully possible to have a constuctive and positive dialogue about it if both parties are open to it. I can't see who would lose anything by this.

Goat93

I feared that my writing comes this way. when someone feels better about this or that its ok, but in my opinion its just the taste of the person who make the critism. i say, when an artist is 100% satisfied with his work, it should be as it is. if the artist is not sure about his work or the label owner want it in another direction its all ok, but i won't do it for myself. so its just my opinion to handle.  you say, when an artist can make it better, but what is "better"? we run in circles about definition of these words. "better" "quality" "poor" ect ect.

hsv

I think it's possible for someone who has a lot of knowledge of a certain field of art or music to give truly constructive criticism, in the sense that they might not even like the genre or style of a piece, but they can still see how it should work to be as good as it can be within this genre. A big part of quality is of course "personal taste", but it can also having a clear vision as opposed to being obviously not sure about what you really wanna say, sticking consistently to your vision instead of half-assing it; how a work is presented. Quality can be the exact point where you draw the line between "too minimalistic, something is missing" and "this is too much", etc. These are of course subjective at the end of the day too, but they can be argued and discussed as opposed to simply "this is good" or "this sucks".

All artists know that showing your work to someone else can turn everything on its head; the points that you thought were obvious are lost on someone, who instead picks up on other things not even intended, the work you think is the weakest is the one that gets the most praise, etc. Going to other people for criticism (a label owner, an art professor, your mum..) doesn't mean you have to change everything in accordance to what they say, but you will have to consider it. Why does this person have a different view of your work than yourself and does anything need changing, and if not, you should be confident enough to stick by your original idea anyway.

One thing that strikes me while reading this thread, though... a lot of you say that a work should be evaluated against the rest of the artist's catalogue, does it stand out or is it just average, can they do better, etc. This clearly can't be applied to debutante artists, so in that case there should be a higher degree of subjectivity involved perhaps?

Ritual

Quote from: hsv on October 05, 2012, 11:15:31 AM
All artists know that showing your work to someone else can turn everything on its head; the points that you thought were obvious are lost on someone, who instead picks up on other things not even intended, the work you think is the weakest is the one that gets the most praise, etc. Going to other people for criticism (a label owner, an art professor, your mum..) doesn't mean you have to change everything in accordance to what they say, but you will have to consider it. Why does this person have a different view of your work than yourself and does anything need changing, and if not, you should be confident enough to stick by your original idea anyway.
Well put. Of course, a label owner giving criticism doesn't mean the artist MUST change his work. If artist is confident and simply the label owner doesn't share this vision (or understand it), then maybe find another label? That might be best for both parties. But, if a label owner is going to release a specific artist's work, knows this artist has done works before that are great (according to the knowledge, taste, yes, and/or artistic vision of the label owner), and feel disappointed in the material that is supplied... I feel some sort of criticism should be given. To simply shut up about it and release it anyway doesn't make sense to me. What about your integrity as label?