Our Interests, central or marginal to the whole of Industrial culture?

[Brad]

.

[HongKongGoolagong]

I guess it was the late 80s or early 90s when hard-edged EBM/ pop music started being termed 'industrial' with things like Ministry and NIN. The waters were muddied somewhat by original innovators like Laibach, SPK and Test Dept starting to do that sort of music themselves - in some cases rather well, in others badly...

There are rock clubs in the UK which have had dedicated 'industrial nights' which are more about Goth fashion than anything else. Of course club owners don't want the usual handful of scruffy suspects watching Con-Dom when they could fill their club with rivetheads dancing to KMFDM and drinking the bar dry! The sort of sounds discussed here will always be a minority interest and most shows will be tiny promotions, in squat and 'upstairs room' type venues rather than anywhere more commercial.

[martialgodmask]

I guess it was the late 80s or early 90s when hard-edged EBM/ pop music started being termed 'industrial' with things like Ministry and NIN. The waters were muddied somewhat by original innovators like Laibach, SPK and Test Dept starting to do that sort of music themselves - in some cases rather well, in others badly...

There are rock clubs in the UK which have had dedicated 'industrial nights' which are more about Goth fashion than anything else. Of course club owners don't want the usual handful of scruffy suspects watching Con-Dom when they could fill their club with rivetheads dancing to KMFDM and drinking the bar dry! The sort of sounds discussed here will always be a minority interest and most shows will be tiny promotions, in squat and 'upstairs room' type venues rather than anywhere more commercial.

A chap I used to work with was talking of starting regular "alt" nights, at which there would be in his words a "dedicated platform for industrial". He asked me if I'd be interested in doing a DJ set or two, but upon learning what I'd be likely to play the offer was rescinded, with the remark "Oh.... You like that type of industrial. That's not what I was thinking of."

[Goat93]

I guess it was the late 80s or early 90s when hard-edged EBM/ pop music started being termed 'industrial' with things like Ministry and NIN. The waters were muddied somewhat by original innovators like Laibach, SPK and Test Dept starting to do that sort of music themselves - in some cases rather well, in others badly...

There are rock clubs in the UK which have had dedicated 'industrial nights' which are more about Goth fashion than anything else. Of course club owners don't want the usual handful of scruffy suspects watching Con-Dom when they could fill their club with rivetheads dancing to KMFDM and drinking the bar dry! The sort of sounds discussed here will always be a minority interest and most shows will be tiny promotions, in squat and 'upstairs room' type venues rather than anywhere more commercial.

Same in Germany. There are of course Concerts and Club Nights with Industrial/Noise/Power Eletronics, but the Masses consider Electromusic as Noise /Industrial here. Went also in Cyber Trend in Germany some Years ago. So "Noise" or "Industrial" are now used for severeal different Music Styles here. Some Bands can be played on ever Party like Haus Arafna, but mostly the Electro/Cyber Scene is Shocked about the "old" Industrial Culture and they tried to ignore it. Takes some funny Actions like a Groub of Idiots in Germany who maked this "Industrial gegen Kinderschänder" -> "Industrial against Child Molester". Very funny when they realized what other kinds of Industrial are out, besides DjBobo and Combichrist.

Glady here is a Scene, so you have the Option to got to Partys/Concerts once in a while. Talked that in another Tread already, its Problematic that not too much Noise Listeners want to go to a Show, so most Concerts have not enought Visiters

[tisbor]

"that industrial"

heh, good definition!

Brad, you can't pretend "our" music to be relevant to much more than a very limited niche. Sometimes the interest in this kind of stuff is stirred up a bit (first Relapse Records, then Wolf Eyes, then Hospital/Prurient etc) but it never lasts long or goes too far in public exposure.
Just leave the dancing goths alone, and they'll do the same. Their industrial is something completely different.

[tisbor]

that aggrotech is more popular in the so-called industrial scene than death industria

Are you serious? Try to dance to Atrax Morgue.

[Andrew McIntosh]

is it subjective to think that one sound's 30-some years of historical divergence from the origin of industrial is more or less deserving of marginalization than another's?

I just think it's fair enough that people have an historical perspective, no matter how short that history may be. If it's just a matter of how words change their meanings that's one thing, but anyone who claims to be a fan of "Industrial" should, at least, know where that term came from and why. It's only been a mere thirty odd years since Industrial Records, and it's not like none of it hasn't been documented. What they do with their version thereof is entirely up to them.

But there's nothing wrong with having a chuckle at them -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y65lERfzNNE

[online prowler]

Brad.

I think you are doing something very interesting that has potential for being developed further. Coming into contact with people whom have similar perspectives and tastes can be a momentum for something more. I am not sure, but I sense that you feel there is something lacking or that another direction might be more interesting to follow. If I am putting words in your mouth I apologies for this. As Andrew mentioned music evolves, new platforms emerge. I'd like to put into this thought a list of keywords like background, exposure and quality. Background and exposure go hand-in-hand of some sorts. I am here thinking rather generally on what culture and social history individuals has as a point of reference for own tastes, and exposure in the form of how much industrial/noise material they have come across. One also has to take into account that the term industrial is now rather watered out as a concept - which several of the posters here have indirectly stated. Anyway, the issues of background and exposure seems to be a part of your quandary.

On a note I'd like to say that to me it seems you are doing something positive in legging up a environment for industrial, but maybe not with the right people- or for the people that you'd like to reach. I wouldn't be too concerned about what industrial/noise heads thinks about this issue you proposed to be honest. The most important thing is to develop something from an own perspective with people whom share this idea. Slowly a climate for others will be instigated. If peeps don't enjoy or approve of your standpoint - føkk em, if people don't want to participate cause they feel not represented in the ideas that follows - føkk em.

Two other important factors I personally have experienced in dealing with arranging gigs plus over here is economy and risk. Some friends and I we organize from time to time noise gigs and exhibitions. For a year we had our own venue, but we got kicked out due to the ongoing gentrification in town. So we found ourselves seeking external partnership with like minded people and venues. Primarily for gigs and one particular exhibition. Due to our unwillingness to compromise on the artistic content and our proposed partners desire for economic profit, we found it increasingly difficult to establish a working relationship with others. Mind you we are not difficult people, but the source for our problem was our proposed partners unwillingness for risk in the form of transgressive artistic expression - and at the end of this note - a fear for a possible dent in their social/artistic stature/position. Our experience were that when willing for risk it is best to be as independent as possible from others re basic necessities, and wait for a time and place where a proposition might fit into an artistic context. I believe this is some of the reasons that a lot of noise gigs and related events take place in dingy and hidden venues. One has to realize it is not possible to please all or see eye-to-eye on everything - and here comes the issue of subjective/collective quality in: What is quality to you - or anybody else here for that matter? What kind of production/event/esthetic/concept does one want to realize? For what reasons are one tolling this effort? Why invest time into it? What should the best possible outcome be like - and how can this be achieved with current resources/network ?

On an end note I'ld like to say that noise and industrial is not exactly the same, but from where we are talking they are highly related. As far as arranging/hosting/partaking in industrial events like you talk about I have no clue, but I think that one can find similarities in the intentions and mechanisms involved related to our separate work.

I wish you the best of luck with your project!

[xdementia]

A while ago I created a social networking page for all industrial music fans in my area.  It has grown to over 100 members and many active discussions.  Unfortunately, moderating this page has made me notice on a daily basis how different the perspective on industrial music that I get from magazines and forums such as Special Interests and its allies is, compared to most of the people that make up the local industrial scene. 

Quite simply, no one who has ever been profiled in your magazine has ever performed in my city (to my knowledge), and probably never will.  You can't hear them from a DJ at a bar on "industrial night."  Practically all of the recent tours that have stopped here and were heavily promoted to and attended by the "industrial scene" were headlined by alternative dance or rock bands, usually on Metropolis Records.  A recent community effort to organize a concert showcasing all local industrial bands has produced a lineup similarly dominated by electronic and rock bands that may sound slightly angsty or mechanical, but truly relevant to industrial?  I don't know, but none of the participants I would ever expect to see in Special Interests.  Even the only two big festivals in my country that are marketed with the word "industrial," Kinetik and Terminus, focus on a completely different, much poppier kind of music and seem to utterly shun anything associated with oldschool industrial, death industrial, power electronics or industrial noise.  We are, it seems, outsiders among outsiders.

I know Special Interests doesn't feature many Canadian artists, so maybe it's just us.  Do people in other countries have different experiences with this topic? 

I dunno, there are at least a few Canadian industrial/power electronics artists I can think of off the top of my head - although they are mostly from the West Coast:

Sistranatus
Rusulka
Griefer
BT.HN
Taskmaster
Brutophilia

I played with all these artists at the Victoria Noise Fest way back in 2011 so there's at least one fest that happens in Canada as well.

I know what you mean about the separation. I've been lurking at this board <---LINK quite a bit lately and the divide in the cultures is quite astounding. Honestly it's weird because it seems several types of "industrial" interested people are posting but all are never really acknowledging the existence of the other.

[Jordan]

Quite simply, no one who has ever been profiled in your magazine has ever performed in my city (to my knowledge), and probably never will.  You can't hear them from a DJ at a bar on "industrial night."  Practically all of the recent tours that have stopped here and were heavily promoted to and attended by the "industrial scene" were headlined by alternative dance or rock bands, usually on Metropolis Records.  A recent community effort to organize a concert showcasing all local industrial bands has produced a lineup similarly dominated by electronic and rock bands that may sound slightly angsty or mechanical, but truly relevant to industrial?  I don't know, but none of the participants I would ever expect to see in Special Interests.  Even the only two big festivals in my country that are marketed with the word "industrial," Kinetik and Terminus, focus on a completely different, much poppier kind of music and seem to utterly shun anything associated with oldschool industrial, death industrial, power electronics or industrial noise.  We are, it seems, outsiders among outsiders.

I know Special Interests doesn't feature many Canadian artists, so maybe it's just us.  Do people in other countries have different experiences with this topic?  

Well, there's at least SOME stuff here Brad. Maybe more leaning towards "noise" usually, but there's been acts like Griefer, and Dan and I have done some stuff. The crowds are usually more punk people or "indie" or whatever types, not people connected to the "industrial scene" but it's still something.

It's probably best to think of it as the kind of industrial you talk about being popular here is akin to Blink 182 (or whatever band is comparable now) is to Punk or something, where you'd probably have thousands of kids attending a show, but 50-10 attending a D-beat/Raw Punk/Crust kind of show. You'd have to scale it down on account of industrial generally being less mainstream than punk, but it scales.

[Jordan]

Also, Mike Connelly was featured in one of the first issues of Special Interest, and he was booked for a show here a few years ago that he didn't end up playing because of border troubles. I know what you mean generally about industrial and perhaps that doesn't fit -- the show was with a guy from Nautical Almanac, Sick Llama and some guy he was with (members of Wolf Eyes were supposed to do solo sets, and Drainolith was supposed to play too but they didn't make it across the border) -- but again, it's not as bad as you make it out, you said "no one who has ever been profiled in your magazine has ever performed in my city". Merzbow played here in the late nineties, and there are people here who were at that show and still like what are at the very least closely related phenomena.

Things certainly are generally abysmal re: industrial in Canada, and specifically in Ottawa of all the major cities it seems, but they're not as abysmal as you make it seem.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

The more "remote" area, the more it probably has local characteristics. But even more so, I strongly believe that this type of culture is build by active participants and shape of the network may be dominated by interests of merely handful of "key players".
Their labels releases music they're into, their gigs are by bands they're into, their distribution lists are filled with items related to these styles. Magazines they contribute or publish often reflect the style as well. It enables situation where this is among main things what creates the "visible culture".  We might not know what people listen at their homes, did they like the gigs they saw, what all they happen to buy and where, but work of the key players of "scene" may be seen.

When thinking of Canada, I could think of Freedom In A Vacuum. Defunct Canadian experimental, industrial label run by Robert W. Olver. Operated in conjunction with his "Freedom In A Vacuum" events at the Music Gallery in Toronto. as discogs info says. Checking out the labels releases (HNAS, Unkommuniti, Grey Wolves, PBK, Dog As Master, Nails of Christ, Vivenza,etc) it is very much of "our side of industrial" (haha!), but certainly when we talk of label who quit already in 1990 - its effect now may be minimal?
But at the same time, this can have been a important activity at the time, defining moment of genre. If Canada lacks the guy who is willing to bang his head against the wall, trying to promote that industrial he likes, one can always step up for that task. Often things only need couple active guys, and that's it. Rest will follow with its own weight.

When thinking of whether it's marginal of central - thinking of print runs as "50 tapes", of course it's marginal interest by any standards. But there no need to be surprised that special interests are marginal compared to interests of average man. And this reality certainly doesn't have to affect negatively to what you choose to do.

[online prowler]

The more "remote" area, the more it probably has local characteristics. But even more so, I strongly believe that this type of culture is build by active participants and shape of the network may be dominated by interests of merely handful of "key players".
Their labels releases music they're into, their gigs are by bands they're into, their distribution lists are filled with items related to these styles. Magazines they contribute or publish often reflect the style as well. It enables situation where this is among main things what creates the "visible culture".  We might not know what people listen at their homes, did they like the gigs they saw, what all they happen to buy and where, but work of the key players of "scene" may be seen.

Brad. I might have been reading into other ideas and expanding your initial thought about your page. My intention was not to define or diagnose it in any way, but more to look at what it can be if one is willing to include other efforts into it, as well as look a bit at the cultural/social effect your work can potentially have. I think Mikko sketched quite good what potential any cultural work in the social sphere can have - done with or without - concern for it. This is why I find your effort important. Now it is a page as you say, but there is a vast possibility to work within if one wants to use the page as a platform from where to develop and share related interests.  

[Jordan]

Well, there's at least SOME stuff here Brad. Maybe more leaning towards "noise" usually, but there's been acts like Griefer, and Dan and I have done some stuff. The crowds are usually more punk people or "indie" or whatever types, not people connected to the "industrial scene" but it's still something.

Those shows were great!  I appreciate what you do! :)

I'm not saying that noise (or noisy industrial) is completely nonexistent in Ottawa, I'm expressing my disappointment at how little interest there is in it among the industrial crowd.  I got the impression from certain zines and forums that industrial and noise are in the same family?  Actually the Pitch Black series (RIP 2011-2012?) did have a good overlap with the industrial scene, and featured some noise/experimental/avant-garde/ambient that could be relevant here.  Nothing really in the way of power electronics or death industrial or anything else that people would call perverse or transgressive or terroristic.  It was more of a "polite noise" atmosphere that didn't appeal on the same level as something like Griefer does, you know?  That's the kind of thing I miss having locally.

but again, it's not as bad as you make it out, you said "no one who has ever been profiled in your magazine has ever performed in my city". Merzbow played here in the late nineties, and there are people here who were at that show and still like what are at the very least closely related phenomena.

I don't think Merzbow has ever been in Special Interests, except for the reviews section.  Which of course doesn't mean anything other than to emphasize the disconnect between the industrial scene I follow on paper and the industrial scene I have personal access to.

Things certainly are generally abysmal re: industrial in Canada, and specifically in Ottawa of all the major cities it seems, but they're not as abysmal as you make it seem.

Maybe in a bit of a lull, though.  Sounds Unlikely is long gone, Pitch Black is apparently also no more, the house that hosted the Sword Heaven and Wolf Eyes solo project shows is either not doing shows anymore or I'm just way out of the loop?

I'm in a rush, so I'll say a few points quickly, and they'll probably be totally irrelevant, but here we go:

-Final Dissolution will never play another show, although I have shitloads of recorded material and would like to release an album sometime soon. I have a solo industrial/noise kind of project that I'm working on currently.

-I didn't mean that Merzbow was in Special Interests, just kind of tagged that on at the end of the Mike Connelly thing to show that that wasn't an isolated event. I know things do suck now, the Justice Yeldham show for instance lost a whole lot of money, and that's really why it sucks, because nobody goes to the shows that we do get.

I'll add more and format this later.

[Goat93]

It hardly seems like it should be debatable to say that most of the albums released by Tesco Organisation are "more industrial" than those released by Metropolis Records, for example.  If you look at the local punk or metal scene they may have exactly the same kind of forum nerds who argue about the authenticity of various bands or subgenres, but at the end of the day, I can go to a local "punk" show and hear music that sounds like punk.  I can go to a local "metal" show and hear music that sounds like metal.   Nü-metal never completely or permanently took over, which I consider the analogy of what did happen to industrial (caveat: I am not a punk or metalhead).

I would say, its not just only the Music or the Sounds. Take SPK's Auto da Fe. There are different Styles which could used for Diferent Scene Names (Industrial, Power Electronics Angst Pop to name some) on one Album. I would guess, its the Monotonie of the same Style. Take a Whitehouse and then an Agonoize Album and see the Difference between this two. Klinik where also a good example, where the Music is not really this or that but fucking great in all ways.

To the Metal/Punk Standarts and Forum nerds. When you got to a Metal Show, don't forget to bring some Teddy Bears:



But gladly you can got to the next Crust/punk gig with some Children



Its really Ironical, that the Fans of these Artists show for sure, what their Idols are upt to, so You have nowadays in every Scene a lot of Kids (and i mean Kids) and there is no real Idealism in these Scenes anymore. Otherwise imagine a Sutcliffe Jugend Gig with 300 Underaged Teddy Bear Throwers...i hope this will happen someday