This release cannot be sold in the Discogs Marketplace

Started by fireblanket, August 22, 2013, 01:49:43 AM

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Zeno Marx

Their MO is to tell people they will address problem X, and then years pass with nothing done.  They often sell the snakeoil of "it's coming soon".  Maybe they'll prove that habit wrong with this, but I wouldn't count on it.  They've been telling buyers "the option to block sellers" is coming soon for a couple years now.  You know, the sellers who update their list every other day and flood your email with updates?  Buyers have been asking for a way to block them for a very long time.  It hasn't happened yet.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

HongKongGoolagong

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on August 25, 2013, 12:03:36 AM
How the hell did F&V get noticed but not a bunch of other, much more obvious (& known) bands/labels?!?
Quote from: martialgodmask on August 25, 2013, 12:37:04 AMPossibly something has happened and they have made F&V an example as a result (why F&V in particular, who knows?)

Back in the 1990s when test laws on internet hate speech were happening, French authorities decided to try them out on Jean-Louis Costes for his bad taste comedy CDs rather than more obvious hatemongers. I think the theory is if they pick on some kind of crazy artist rather than the real thing, there will be fewer people to defend what just seems like, well, filth and violence to the average person. If a precedent of censorship is set that way, no one but the obscure artist notices at first.

Jordan

I imagine that things are banned based on complaints, no? And lots of punk people and what have you seem to find industrial-related bands to be much more of a threat than a lot of RAC and just legitimately racist bands, for some reason.

Zeno Marx

I don't know any punks who would know what this stuff is, and punk in 2013 is about as watered down and non-political as it has ever been.  Punk is no longer issue-oriented or social based.  It mirrors society pretty accurately in most respects.  It's on the verge, as a whole, to be bona fide libertarianism with a high thumbing at the liberalism of the past.  Maybe Europe is different, but the US definitely isn't very political or moral.

If I was to point fingers with nothing better to do, my first assumption would be a parent.  Some kid buys a cassette with a guy covered in shit in a shower stall, and the mother sees it in their room.  Paid with their credit card number or paypal account.  as the story goes...

Some of you folks should write for a newspaper.  They love journalists who can stir up a frenzy without a lick of any evidence.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

Goat93

QuoteThey want to protect themselves as at the end of the day.

I could understand this, if they draw a clear line, but to make a Marketplace for Bootlegs is the opposite of Protecting Themselves. I have had whole Time wondered, why no Big Company Like Emi or Gema fucked them up with their Thousands of Bootlegs, since they did it on Ebay since Years. So, for the Company the Selling of Nazi Stuff is much more Harmless" than Selling Fake Stuff. For the Image of the Site, its of course better to bann just Nazi Stuff. All other is no Problem so long nobody Cry about it.

QuoteWhat's funny  is you can't sell or buy  F&V releases that very few will ever look at or come across but you can buy or sell everything by Skrewdriver, the most well-known racist rock band EVER.

Maybe it will come, since in the Forum are Several Pointings to them. But as in some Countries, the Whole RAC Music is just Partial Banned, a Lot runs under "Harmless". I think in Germany are also just some Lps banned.


SNR

For me, discogs.com never functioned as a marketplace, but for a correct database only... so, the sale-banning thing doesn't effect me. Anyway, I think it's a very old fashioned p.c, and useless thing to ban releases to sell, just for their title/artwork. The reason is simple: discogs.com do NOTHING with the idealogy of the artists, or the people who collect the artists' releases. It's a private thing, so why ban it? About the censorship:, or delete whole releases: It's useless, especially in this case, because none of the actual releases contains material, that actually really hurt the law. I mean, child pornography and shit like that... but some adult pornographic, or 'weird' gory stuff? They have common legality nowadays on the net, and in this case, they are just artist expressions. Well, solution? Maybe a +18 pre-window on each release with such a content? It could be still better, than block whole releases from market, or even the whole site.

impulse manslaughter

Quote from: SNR on August 25, 2013, 06:35:58 PM
none of the actual releases contains material, that actually really hurt the law
Depends on what country you are living in.. German laws are pretty strict.

Zeno Marx

It's a good thing that people are paying attention to this kind of thing; just as it is good that punks or neo-hippies or new agers or politicos are paying attention to social issues and philosophical inconsistencies.  Because, if nobody is paying attention...well, nobody is then paying attention.  Business loves when nobody is paying attention.  It's the fringe that [at the very least] keeps all these things on the radar.  It doesn't usually balance things, but it acts as some kind of checks & balance.  They need to answer to someone, even if that someone cannot do a damn thing about anything other than demanding some accountability.  Gnats are part of a healthy ecosystem.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

ADR

I was just informed that the Satanic Skinhead Propaganda release of VAGINAL JESUS "Affirmative Apartheid" is no longer allowed to be sold on Discogs. Apparently, when Discogs was written to ask the reasoning behind this, they received the same blanket statement that seems to be what everyone else is receiving. This is just the beginning and more will most assuredly follow.

My opinion on this matter is varied and there are many different angles that one can view and approach this situation.

Some questions that others who have stores with hundreds and or thousands of releases in stock at Discogs should ask and ascertain what their criteria will be for deciding which releases/bands will not be allowed to be sold on the site any longer are:

- Will they instate a "zero tolerance" and "equal" set of rules that will be hard line/stringent and without any exceptions?

- If so, will EVERY release that falls under, for example, "Racial discrimination" fall into the category of "not able to be sold on the Discogs marketplace"?.

- If this is indeed the case and will be put into effect under their rules and guidlines, will releases by SKREWDRIVER be looked at any differently than those by black rap "artists" such as DA LENCH MOB, ICE CUBE, DR DRE and countless others who have racially discriminating and derogatory lyrics towards non Blacks?

-Will records with lyrics such as:

"Fuck them laws, because the Mob is coming raw; nigga, is you down because it's the Final Call. . . . grab your gat; know the three will start busting; I'm trying to take them down. . . . the war of wars with no fucking scores. . . . April 29 was a chance to realize . . . the g.'s are out to kill. . . . we got crackers to kill; sending them back in on a ship to Europe. . . . they deserve it. . . . a nation-wide riot across America. . . . this is the Final Call on black man and black woman, rich and poor; rise up";
--"Final Call"; Da Lench Mob, Planet of da Apes, 1994, Priority Records, Thorn EMI; now called The EMI Group, United Kingdom.

"We're having thoughts of overthrowing the government. . . . the brothers and sisters threw their fists in the air. . . . it's open season on crackers, you know; the morgue will be full of Caucasian John Doe's. . . . I make the Riot shit look like a fairy tale. . . . oh my god, Allah, have mercy; I'm killing them devils because they're not worthy to walk the earth with the original black man; they must be forgetting; it's time for Armageddon, and I won't rest until they're all dead";
--"Goin Bananas"; Da Lench Mob, Planet of da Apes, 1994, Priority Records, Thorn EMI; now called The EMI Group, United Kingdom.

"He preys on old white ladies [who] drive the Mercedes with the windows cracked. . . . you should've heard the bitch screaming. . . . sticking guns in crackers' mouths. . . . the cops can't stop it. . . . remember 4-29-92, come on; Florence and Normandy coming to a corner near you, cracker; we've been through your area, mass hysteria; led by your motherfucking Menace Clan";
--"Mad Nigga"; Menace Clan, Da Hood, 1995, Rap-A-Lot Records, Noo Trybe Records, Time Warner, USA.

be deemed "unacceptable to be sold in the Discogs marketplace" because they clearly are racially discriminatory and violent? Or will they be exempt because SONY, TIME WARNER/WARNER BROTHERS, UNIVERSAL, EMI and the like released those records? Will their decision also be based upon the fact they see no reason to not allow those records to be sold within their marketplace, as one can easily purchase any of those records at Walmart, Target, gas stations, flea markets etc?

- Will their decision also be based upon the fact that those records are pressed in the hundreds of thousands, and some such as ICE CUBE, in the millions and are distributed by the largest Record Companies in the world?

- Will Discogs enforce their rules across the board, and "equally" to ANY record that falls under that category, whether released by small independent, underground labels such as Filth & Violence and Satanic Skinhead Propaganda, or released by the 3 largest mainstream labels in the world, Universal, Sony and Warner?

If I had a store on Discogs that primarily stocks and sells underground music that caters to those with "Taboo" interests, and this decision could potentially cause my business to lose what could possibly be thousands of dollars, I would expect these questions to be answered.

However, we all know the answer to every question already.
DEATHANGLE ABSOLUTION RECORDS Official Online Store:
http://shop-hellsheadbangers.com/dar.asp

HATE LEGION DISSEMINATIONS Official Online Store:
http://hatelegion.storenvy.com/

Zeno Marx

Quote from: ADR on August 26, 2013, 09:06:14 PMIf I had a store on Discogs that primarily stocks and sells underground music that caters to those with "Taboo" interests, and this decision could potentially cause my business to lose what could possibly be thousands of dollars, I would expect these questions to be answered.
This is one of the ignored vulnerabilities with depending on eBay, Amazon, Discogs, Etsy, or any middle-man internet entity.  You're at their mercy and whim.  This story is unrelated, but not entirely so.  Sellers have few rights in such relationships, and it is best to leave expectations at the door and to keep yourself on high-alert.  It's interesting.  You want to be your own boss, only to find you have a different kind of boss that is every bit as powerful as the other bosses.  Stay paranoid, friends.  Their rules are floating, not static.
http://www.startupnation.com/business-blogs/index.php/2013/05/22/third-party-sellers-need-to-rethink-theamazon-fba-program
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

Goat93

QuoteOr will they be exempt because SONY, TIME WARNER/WARNER BROTHERS, UNIVERSAL, EMI and the like released those records?

Idioticaly and Ironic the Answer is the same like Grindcore/Death Metal: The Bands are good, nice People and doesn't mean it in any REAL Way, its just Fantasy and we all should love each other and tolerate such Teeny behaviour, since Bla bla bla bla...
Its fucking often that Neo Nazi=NO Go and all other Shit is just Entertainment, but when Real History starts, the Fun is Over...Stop, just Concentrated on Nazi Stuff, since Christians Bashing, Middle Age Blobbering and other Idiotic Storytelling is of course no Problem. So, feed the Lions, but let the Gasmask at Home


ADR

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on August 26, 2013, 10:26:40 PM
eBay & Discogs should only be used as tools to sell, not what you depend on entirely. If you run a full-fledged distro/label then having a proper website makes more sense then Discogs can be used for selling used or rare items.

If you deal in 'hate' then you'll have to find another way. Maybe set up a website in the Deep Web which would make you ultra-cool and underground. Maybe Silk Road can add a music section...

This is correct, and should be the way that things are handled. The issue is, and I have seen this myself even though I do not have a full distro, that many people who buy releases today want to feel a sense of "security" when buying from an underground label/band/individual etc, and that security is found when purchasing through outlets such as Ebay, Gemm, Discogs and so on. That is the unfortunate truth and case in point, RRRon has told me that without Ebay, he would not survive, as the online store as well as the actual storefront do very little business in comparison to the sales on Ebay/Discogs. It does not matter how fancy or easy a label's store is to navigate or use either. I know this firsthand with running SSP/ADR for over the last decade. I can put a release out and sell a certain amount direct, and any label that carries my releases that sells on Ebay comes for restocks faster than ANY normal distro. Deathgasm for example, can sell my cd's in greater volume than I can, and even for upwards to $15 a cd BEFORE shipping through Ebay sales in comparison to my $10 postage paid direct.

Again, the Discogs change does not affect me, nor do I have an opinion on it, but I do know that some such as Crucial Blast and RRRecords depend on such outlets, and it is a shame that both and many others will more than likely feel the effect of this. Malignant Records and both mentioned are as integral as Freak Animal and Filth & Violence in my eyes for distributing underground music and art effectively and efficiently, and of the highest volume and regard. I would hope that this does not do as much damage as could be possible, but knowing that RRRon sells all of my releases through Discogs and Ebay, and now may be potentially stopped from doing so, is a cause for concern.

Time will tell.
DEATHANGLE ABSOLUTION RECORDS Official Online Store:
http://shop-hellsheadbangers.com/dar.asp

HATE LEGION DISSEMINATIONS Official Online Store:
http://hatelegion.storenvy.com/

Cementimental

#58
Quote from: Goat93 on August 26, 2013, 10:13:35 PM
QuoteOr will they be exempt because SONY, TIME WARNER/WARNER BROTHERS, UNIVERSAL, EMI and the like released those records?

Idioticaly and Ironic the Answer is the same like Grindcore/Death Metal: The Bands are good, nice People and doesn't mean it in any REAL Way, its just Fantasy and we all should love each other and tolerate such Teeny behaviour, since Bla bla bla bla...
Its fucking often that Neo Nazi=NO Go and all other Shit is just Entertainment, but when Real History starts, the Fun is Over...Stop, just Concentrated on Nazi Stuff, since Christians Bashing, Middle Age Blobbering and other Idiotic Storytelling is of course no Problem. So, feed the Lions, but let the Gasmask at Home
What is this, an album track list? I don't get it.

online prowler