Economics of noise publishing

[Niko]

Just wondering why the Metal heads can make lower Prices with mostly Awesome Packages?
Someone have an Idea about that?

Bigger editions.

[Goat93]

its just a point, i don't understand, so i ask about it. Its not my intention to make a Punch in any direction or something. But the Question about it should be legitime, since there are plenty other examples out there. I can also take Whitehouse LPs, which are really expensive and cocainacopia rex
with Dead reptile shrine Dlp or Isolationist LP, which looks both awesome and are not expensive.

Or denovali records with really insane limitation/offerings and for that normal prices.
Here as example celeste - Morte(s) Nee(s)

100 on picture disc with gold print 2xLP
200 on black with gold print and screen print on d side 2xLP
200 on white vinyl with black haze and gold print 2xLP

100 on picture disc with copper print 2xLP
200 on brown vinyl with black haze and copper print 2xLP
200 on clear vinyl with black haze and copper print.

LP's come in heavy gatefold covers and printed discobags. Discobags are printed
in wither gold or copper.

CD with copper covers limited to 333 copies
CD with white covers limited to 333 copies
CD with golden covers limited to 333 copies

CD's on thick cardboard gatefold covers.

A Double Picture LP costs 20Euro+Postage ;)

Just wondering why the Metal heads can make lower Prices with mostly Awesome Packages?
Someone have an Idea about that?

Bigger editions.

no, there are even plenty about 200 or 300 Editions ;)

[ADR]

Bottom line, you don't want to pay and support the label/artists, then don't.

[Goat93]

Bottom line, you don't want to pay and support the label/artists, then don't.

This is not the point. My question is clear, so should be also the answer. If someone
want 100 Dollar for a 7" and claim that all people won't support the Label/Artist i think
its just childish behavour, but no real argument, why he claim to need 100$

[ADR]

its just a point, i don't understand, so i ask about it. Its not my intention to make a Punch in any direction or something. But the Question about it should be legitime, since there are plenty other examples out there. I can also take Whitehouse LPs, which are really expensive and cocainacopia rex
with Dead reptile shrine Dlp or Isolationist LP, which looks both awesome and are not expensive.

Or denovali records with really insane limitation/offerings and for that normal prices.
Here as example celeste - Morte(s) Nee(s)

100 on picture disc with gold print 2xLP
200 on black with gold print and screen print on d side 2xLP
200 on white vinyl with black haze and gold print 2xLP

100 on picture disc with copper print 2xLP
200 on brown vinyl with black haze and copper print 2xLP
200 on clear vinyl with black haze and copper print.

LP's come in heavy gatefold covers and printed discobags. Discobags are printed
in wither gold or copper.

CD with copper covers limited to 333 copies
CD with white covers limited to 333 copies
CD with golden covers limited to 333 copies

CD's on thick cardboard gatefold covers.

A Double Picture LP costs 20Euro+Postage ;)

I'm pretty sure Mikko laid it out above. a small label that releases a handful of releases a year can never sell releases for the same cost that a large label with multiple releases a year. The more you make, the more costs go down. Gang runs, factory made jackets in huge bulk runs etc etc contribute.

[Zeno Marx]

Just wondering why the Metal heads can make lower Prices with mostly Awesome Packages?
Someone have an Idea about that?

He has a built-in, loony, fools-part-with-their-money fanbase that:  1)  buys his diehards, no matter how they look or how much they cost, so they quickly sell out  2)  offsets the diehard packaging with $15+/- normal version LPs  3)  offsets the entire situation with CDs, which funnily enough, for which he only charges $5  4)  and once he knows he's caught most of the business with a particular album, he lowers his prices to the floor so he can pull in all the people who were on the fence about the release.  That reason 4 is particularly business savvy.  It does him absolutely no good to sit on product and be stubborn about getting $15 for a piece of merchandise.  He drops the cost to $6 for an LP.  That $6 in his pocket is a lot more useful to his business than getting nothing for that LP as it sits in his stock and collects dust.  It shouldn't be considered a loss, either.  That's staying liquid and being very smart about your market and how business can work FOR you and not against you.

Nuclear War Now is a unique situation; so unique that other labels have tried and tried to use his model as a new direction for their business.   And metalheads have always been stupid with their money.  $20-30 T-shirts years and years ago.  Honest-to-goodness love for picture discs.  People collecting every color, or every version, of the same LP.  Being cognitively deficient sort of makes the wallet open a lot easier.

The micro-pressing culture of noise is strangling itself.  People like to buy things, but people also have their limits.  If things don't reverse and somehow work towards a label being able to stretch its costs over 500 units rather than 250, then 200, then 150, then 100 -as the pricing slowly deteriorates the consumer base- then lots of things are going to drastically suffer.  quality.  interest.  etc.

How many things has Pasi released in 2010?  It seems like he's the Agathocles of noise/PE.

[ADR]

Bottom line, you don't want to pay and support the label/artists, then don't.

This is not the point. My question is clear, so should be also the answer. If someone
want 100 Dollar for a 7" and claim that all people won't support the Label/Artist i think
its just childish behavour, but no real argument, why he claim to need 100$

This lp in the states is approx $25. With priority shipping, packaging etc the price goes to $35. And yes, this is a matter of supporting the label and artists. Without support labels can not go on. The cost that went into the release must be made back, and a profit must be made. No other releases would happen without.

[Zeno Marx]

You're not willing to offer the Media Mail option?  That alone could drop it to $30.

Always like to support the artists, but this idea of closet labels needing profit, and then claiming that profit is the only way they can do more releases...well...poppycock.  I suppose when you are steadfast in the idea of $25 LPs being the only way you can do another release, there is some logic to it.  Other folks can make $3, $4, $5 on an LP and consider the few hundred dollar profit to be acceptable, also factoring the fun of running a label, the satisfying experience of working with artists, and the overall life experience of it all.  But then if your profit is $10+, and you're now making $1000+ an a small-run LP, the eyes get big, and the label takes on a much different perspective.

[Goat93]

And metalheads have always been stupid with their money

Hmm, you think Noise People won't pay so much for the Releases?

Whats with all the other Labels out there? There are plenty of little Metal Labels with LP Releases. All unique?
To clear it to a point. Lim. ~200 LP with normal Inner Sleeve and sometimes + Poster costs on a Bigger or Smaller Label around 13-15€ in Europe. Its equal if the Label is big or its not big, mostly the people won't pay really much more for a Standart LP. The Bigger Labels were also Small in the Beginning and have had also LP's with normal Prices.

The cost that went into the release must be made back

Thats the Point, i don't understand the Costs after all. Or are the Pressing Plants so different in Prices?
Why do you pay for a LP+2 Inlets the Same as Cocainophobia with a Double LP and UV Gatefold Cover + Coloured Vinyl?
Maybe i'm too naive, but it must have a reason why it is so...It is not specially with your Label, i want to know in generell, the same Question is also with Tesco Organisation or other Labels in this Music Genre. It is about the whole Scene, if you want so. Tesco is not really a small Label, Dark Vinyl is also not really a Small Label.

edit: I'm not interested in the Question about Profit, i don't care much about it. It depends only about the differences between the Prices in Metal and Noise Scene.

[Zeno Marx]

Hmm, you think Noise People won't pay so much for the Releases?

Basic business premise:  the higher the price, regardless of content, the fewer number of people who are willing, or able, to pay.

edit: I'm not interested in the Question about Profit, i don't care much about it. It depends only about the differences between the Prices in Metal and Noise Scene.

Profit is clearly playing a significant role in pricing.  It's not something that can be ignored.

[P-K]

will this be rereleased? ;-)

[Goat93]

Quote from: Goat93 on Today at 08:21:48 PM
Hmm, you think Noise People won't pay so much for the Releases?
Basic business premise:  the higher the price, regardless of content, the fewer number of people who are willing, or able, to pay.


Quote from: Goat93 on Today at 08:21:48 PM
edit: I'm not interested in the Question about Profit, i don't care much about it. It depends only about the differences between the Prices in Metal and Noise Scene.
Profit is clearly playing a significant role in pricing.  It's not something that can be ignored.

1. Not really true, since look at some Metal labels like HmSS ;)

2. sure, but i don't care much about it, as i said, its about the "whole scene" and not a
single Label. I don't think that everyone wanna make total big profit, but there are not
so much Price differences in the Labels, ok some like RRR, thats true of course.

[blimp]

what's all this Priority Mail talk? Why not offer Media Mail and reduce the price $5.

[bogskaggmannen]

I think maybe we could have general vinyl pricing discussion elsewhere in own topic?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I think most of these message should be maybe divided to "economics of noise" topic, like in noisefanatics in quite similar case?

Good points being made..

release, there is some logic to it.  Other folks can make $3, $4, $5 on an LP and consider the few hundred dollar profit to be acceptable, also factoring the fun of running a label, the satisfying experience of working with artists, and the overall life experience of it all.  But then if your profit is $10+, and you're now making $1000+ an a small-run LP, the eyes get big, and the label takes on a much different perspective.

I think problem of this calculation is, it assumes it's retail only. And if label presses for example 300, send out 60 to band. Perhaps gives up few copies for other close comrades. Trades 50, wholesales 150. Retails... 30? Trade copies are nearly non profit. The international shipping and getting something in trade. It's pretty much non profit. Wholesale, will bring you probably mere couple $ per unit.  The last few you actually retail, might bring 5... perhaps even 10,- But in the end, the bottom line "profit" can still remain quite non-existent. Even if it looks nice on paper and the retail price looks atrocious.

And why I personally consider non-discount/"regular" retail price good idea?
This is the reason:

He has a built-in, loony, fools-part-with-their-money fanbase that:  1)  buys his diehards, no matter how they look or how much they cost, so they quickly sell out  2)  offsets the diehard packaging with $15+/- normal version LPs  3)  offsets the entire situation with CDs, which funnily enough, for which he only charges $5  4)  and once he knows he's caught most of the business with a particular album, he lowers his prices to the floor so he can pull in all the people who were on the fence about the release.  That reason 4 is particularly business savvy.  It does him absolutely no good to sit on product and be stubborn about getting $15 for a piece of merchandise.  He drops the cost to $6 for an LP.  That $6 in his pocket is a lot more useful to his business than getting nothing for that LP as it sits in his stock and collects dust.  It shouldn't be considered a loss, either.  That's staying liquid and being very smart about your market and how business can work FOR you and not against you.

This is the typical mainstream label behavior. You release item. You press relative big run, you charge the best price you can. From customers, from retailers, from wholesalers..... And suddenly when they find themselves in position of not being able to move units, they drop the value below midprice. The customers learn, why bother to pay full price, when midprice is obligatory thing coming from everything else but hottest bestsellers that are destined to sell out in days.
Retailers & wholesalers learn that customer know this, and they vary on taking any more items than it's absolutely mandatory. If they know LP would be 15,- for next 10 years, they could probably buy plenty. If they can assume that within relatively short amount of time, publisher retail is CHEAPER than wholesale they paid... what's the point? Why take 10 or 20 in first place. Then rather take 3 and get rid of them before it's discount bin carbage.
Label keeps winning, but at the time any partner he has in operation, is kind of pissed on. I know, it's anyones own choise what they will charge, when and how, but if they want to allow distributors chance to distribute, I believe price structure needs to be, that original label and distributor can sell it for almost the same price. The little higher price local distributor has, is still fine due role of shipping.
I could sell my releases cheaper. Of course. But if I would charge retail what I now charge wholesale... well, I see no point doing that. There would be absolutely no distributors left for items, other than those discount item traders and perhaps option to trade 2 of yours vs. 1 of someone elses in european "market". And I doubt it would heavily increase direct sales.
I think any label in noise who does vinyl, who have tried to do no-distribution, direct sale only, have failed? At least so many, that those who succeed seem to be exceptions to rule?
NWN's 5$ cd is the type of thing, that his wholesale is 5$, his retail is 5$ (+post?) it makes you wonder why should I buy them? Who would buy them from me? And if I trade, release that cost me more to make than 5$, is now creating this idea to other labels, why should they pay my wholesale, if label next to them is selling below my wholesale? As said, everybody has right to run their labels as they please, but at the same time it seems selfish method, where all label care is how they sell and how they move product. And what I recall Yosuke mentioning not so long ago, was the necessity of bigger warehouse since stocks keep piling up and records don't move as fast as they could.

I personally try to balance somewhere between the cheap and expensive. I trust in what I call "regular price". Price I have had since I started Freak Animal. Even when wages go up, manufacturing goes up, shipping goes up. Change from showbox hobby to tax paying full size mailorder and retail shop. And I believe my LP's & CD's are the same as they were 10+ years ago? This standard has been quite dominating among finnish labels, and perhaps used to be worldwide.

Nuclear War Now is a unique situation; so unique that other labels have tried and tried to use his model as a new direction for their business.   And metalheads have always been stupid with their money.  $20-30 T-shirts years and years ago.  Honest-to-goodness love for picture discs.  People collecting every color, or every version, of the same LP.  Being cognitively deficient sort of makes the wallet open a lot easier.

I know what you mean. I don't know many noise people who collect all different versions existing of release. And there doesn't even exists culture to such degree that releases would be cashed in. In metal it is mandatory to do "die-hard" of everything. And most often it consists nothing but useless junk. Most pathetic perhaps recently Watain special CD.

The micro-pressing culture of noise is strangling itself.  People like to buy things, but people also have their limits.  If things don't reverse and somehow work towards a label being able to stretch its costs over 500 units rather than 250, then 200, then 150, then 100 -as the pricing slowly deteriorates the consumer base- then lots of things are going to drastically suffer.  quality.  interest.  etc.

I do agree that this might be the case. But I personally see that other reasons, like shipping rates, affect to such a degree, that whether LP costs 15 or 20, doesn't make much difference anymore when shipping makes it too much anyways. I know nobody likes 10-20€ 7"s, but can you find 500 people to buy 7" for 5,-? It would have to be change on entire culture. So there are more labels to trade their big editions to get releases closer to customer. To make editions so big distributors can actually afford to buy it wholesale and still retail for decent price to justify buying. So it all doesn't have to go simply on "supporting artist" as if it was one way street.
It seems like undoable situation. There won't be many labels willing to do it. And perhaps also that recent discussion of "playing times of good recording" is one topic to remember. Culture where publishing favors the ultimate micro releases with little if any efforts. How to convince such label he should invest XXXX$ on 10-15 years plan? In times when everybody yells recorded music is about to die and nobody buys stuff anymore. And labels who buy guaranteed best sellers, how you convince them invest on some new releases of artists who is great, but not yet known? It won't be very amusing situation when you contacted everybody you know, and managed to sell 20 copies on wholesale. If you have 980 more copies to try push somewhere.

How many things has Pasi released in 2010?  It seems like he's the Agathocles of noise/PE.

Bizarre Uproar? According to what I know.. I think 3rd just came out and now this 4th. I guess in noise standards, that ain't too bad when actual recordings also stretch over longer period of time and there was "just"  3 in 2009. Perhaps WOM and DK splits could have been the full length, and "lily the flesh" is so different from most of works, that no matter how many releases there was before, it seems very justified new release. Very nice full length tape album, just as I like.