Economics of noise publishing

Started by ADR, June 01, 2010, 11:03:00 AM

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ADR

Not that it is anyone's business, but since some seem generally interested in what goes into a release such as this, here is the breakdown of the split lp:

COVERS:
- Buying board from paper mill (CHARGE)
- Having board cut to size at paper mill (CHARGE)
- Having board mailed across the country from mill to screen printer (PACKING and FREIGHT CHARGE)
- Screen printer set up (screens and special ink ordered to print to board) (CHARGE)
- Screen impressions per board fee (CHARGE)
- Having finished covers boxed up and shipped to ADR (PACKING and FREIGHT CHARGE)

INSERTS:
- Finding printer to print material such as Swastikas, jew corpses/executions, the word "Aryan"
     - 3 tries. 1 found.
- Offset prepress, pdf proofing and printing set up at plant (CHARGE)
- Printing of inserts (CHARGE)
- Cut-to-size of final prints (CHARGE)
- Packing and shipping to ADR (PACKING and FREIGHT CHARGE)

VINYL:
- Both audio masters sent to outside mastering tech (CHARGE)
- Mp3 samples of mastering (CHARGE)
- Final master disc to be sent to plant (CHARGE)
- When then to vinyl plant, anyone who presses vinyl knows how much this is. Plating, additional mastering, tests presses, center labels, stampers etc etc etc.
- 180 gram vinyl pressing (CHARGE)
- Shipping vinyl to ADR (PACKING and FREIGHT CHARGE)

EXTRANEOUS COSTS:
- Packing and shipping royalty copies to Finland
- Buying plastic sleeves for all 300 copies
- Buying lp mailers/tape etc

Then to assembling each copy.

A good majority of labels do something simple as sending a package to Pirates Press and having them do all of the work in a one shit deal. Then charged once. With the imagery and content of both DEATHKEY and BIZARRE UPROAR, these bigger plants are not an option. I have been turned down by PIRATES PRESS no less than 6 times in the past. Hence, making the release piece by piece by whomever will do the best work and also have no problem with content.

And no media mail as an option as after running another label on top of ADR fo the last 9 years, far too many media mail packages have gone lost, damaged or not arriving until 3 months after the purchase, which leads to paypal charge backs, paypal account locks, loss of support etc etc etc. Priority gets it there within 1 week and never any problems. Always safe.

Again, support the labels and bands or do not.
DEATHANGLE ABSOLUTION RECORDS Official Online Store:
http://shop-hellsheadbangers.com/dar.asp

HATE LEGION DISSEMINATIONS Official Online Store:
http://hatelegion.storenvy.com/

FreakAnimalFinland

And I should maybe say this:
if there is anyone, anywhere, who can offer valuable advice how and where to get items made cheap but good. Any advice who are the good distributors to contact if you want to sell outside the usual core of "noise scene" to move more copies. Any advice on strategy how to make label work for decade(s) without necessity to feed all your own possessions into process. I'm all ears. And this is no joke. I really welcome every bit of valuable information and I'm sure so does many others.

I will split the topic in near future when seeing what turns it takes.
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

kettu

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 01, 2010, 11:36:18 PM
Any advice who are the good distributors to contact if you want to sell outside the usual core of "noise scene" to move more copies. Any advice on strategy how to make label work for decade(s) without necessity to feed all your own possessions into process.

dont know about goodness but aurora b :  http://aurora-b.com/intro.php  is a crossover type of place. also bm distros are more and more open to weirder stuff it seems. at least if the product your pushing is even remotely in the same league. proper industrial, power electronics and or some esoteric shit.

there might be some clever jewiness business wise that can be done but a word from a regular consumer with a foresking is to include a plain cdr of the audio with the vinyl. I fucking guarantee more moved copies as a result. if putting a cdr with every copy is "too much" then atleast make it a possibility, when requested etc

bitewerksMTB

There should be some sort of social justice for record labels & their evil profits...

RG

300 pressed for an album at that price seems a bit much. I thought the pressing was going to be like 100-150?

These might end up sitting around in a lot of distros for a while, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If the material is strong then it's no problem. Looking forward to hearing it, maybe something from Deathkey in the vein of the "Revolt Against The Modern World" track from the last album?

mystikum

I have np paying this.  I'm actually happy there are 300, as I can't afford it just yet, so hopefully it's around for a minute.

ADR

This was supposed to only be 200 copies but the 2 plants utilized will not press any less than 300 now. They actually would like to keep everything at 500 units and above, and scoff at 300 which is the base minimum.

Also, from sales today, most who are interested in this release are buying distro items and adding them to save on postage. Plenty of FREAK ANIMAL, INDUSTRIAL RECOLLECTIONS, FILTH&VIOLENCE and HOSPITAL titles to choose from.
DEATHANGLE ABSOLUTION RECORDS Official Online Store:
http://shop-hellsheadbangers.com/dar.asp

HATE LEGION DISSEMINATIONS Official Online Store:
http://hatelegion.storenvy.com/

RG

#37
Quote from: ADR on June 02, 2010, 04:31:14 AM
This was supposed to only be 200 copies but the 2 plants utilized will not press any less than 300 now. They actually would like to keep everything at 500 units and above, and scoff at 300 which is the base minimum.

Do the pressing plants allow you to split the total amount among a few different recordings? Meaning can you order 300 but have it be 3 different albums, each with 100 pressed?

That method would require you to hold back releases until you had enough total units to go to press, but would give you some flexibility. An edition of 500 just seems like way too much for this kind of music, unless it's exceptional material. 100-250 range seems about right, unless you want the release sitting in distros for 5+ years (which like I said before isn't necessarily a bad thing, if the material is great then it should be easily attainable for a good length of time).

Zeno Marx

Quote from: RG on June 02, 2010, 08:29:31 AMDo the pressing plants allow you to split the total amount among a few different recordings? Meaning can you order 300 but have it be 3 different albums, each with 100 pressed?
No, nothing in manufacturing works like that.  For records in particular, it doesn't work like that for pressing or printing.  Most of the cost and down-time at a factory is for set up and calibration.  You can't combine orders to meet minimum numbers.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

FreakAnimalFinland

Yeah, like Zeno says. If you make cd, doing 300 or 1000 is about the same price. Only vinyl doing 100, 200 or 500 is almost the same price. It's all about set up fee, preparation, etc. When big machines are rolling, the actual replication doesn't cost much. Even in CD replication, price between 200 and 300 might be.. 30$? One can ask why not then do "100 more" if it's covered by 3 copies sold? Well, line has to be drawn somewhere. And I would believe it is case of how much you think you sell, how many copies you can hold in storage for how long, etc.
I believe getting a discount from pressing plant, is absurd idea. Considering it seems to be nuisance for them to even do small editions. Why should they give discount to one who tries to do below the minimum runs? Nowadays the minimum run is priced nearly the same as 500 copies. Factories seem to urge you to take 500, but allow less. Some factories have all the additional surcharges applied when you do small edition.
Perhaps one should force sell 3 copies in one order :D  Customer pays 1 LP but gets 3. Then give to his friends. For publisher it could be about the same cost, but perhaps expand range of listeners. Perhaps could be project worth to try!

Tape and CDR you can make small editions, but I think in those formats the profit margin is much better than on LP on any edition. I would rather complain about 10$ tape/cdr than 30$ LP.


I personally like to use local place as much as possible. I could use the standard factory covers and packaging. Sometimes it would be cheaper and perhaps more professional, but doesn't fit into my concept of what my labels are. In case of packaging such as Deathkey 2xLP or BizarreSSmania, I walk into smallfactory in Lahti. Start to check out samples of speciality cardboards they need to import. Place order for raw materials. I prepare files. Go to boss of factory, who goes to another business to 2nd guy to get films printed. Then he gives films to 3rd guy who prepares the screens and prints each copy with machine size of regular flat. Including owen what heats the color so it really stucks in cardboard. 4th guy operates the huge vintage pneumatic machine to fold & cut plastic, cardboard to shape. One by one. And I can monitor each step of project when it starts, to see it matches my idea how it should be. If there are 4 guys earning their salary on manually printing  250 covers, one can believe, it simply ain't cheap.
When I do my digital prints or offset prints, I have contract with local printer. Lisence to use their machinery and get billed for it. During c. decade I have learned many of the tricks of printing, preparing files, cutting, and whatever, so often I do it faster and better by myself, but could never afford to buy machines that costs more than house. Most of covers are designed, prepared, printed and then creased, folded and cut and hand assembled by yours truly. I believe they look just as I personally want. I don't aim for look like supermarket product, but something that gives impression of self made - but decent. I have build contacts and own tool arsenal over the years big enough to manage to do many thing in house and most things near by. Of course, creasing even CD inlay manually takes endless amount of time. When you got like 2000 covers to crease & fold & pack. But the choise has been mine to do so. There is old man operating print post production house just couple streets from where I live, so for future bigger runs, I may ask his assistance.

One could always think, lets everybody do everything in china and sell cheap. I rather keep prices ok'ish and support the local operations and independent methods and perhaps leave the mark of "hand made" even to something that's usually bulk industrial product.

To Vulpes:
I personally slightly wonder this CDR with LP thing. As I do the download slip. I personally release LP exclusively: to be listened. I don't want to promote idea, that LP is collectable format, and actual listening happens in some "more convenient" way on computer, cd player, ipod, etc. If that's the case, I would rather release album as LP/CD which allow customer to choose format he prefers from options that I personally as music listener use. I think there should be torrents that distribute files of FA releases people are free to use if they want to listen just the sounds. Also any bloggers are free to upload any new/old FA titles (please do good transfers!) online. Digital file users can take from there without feeling guilt.
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

Strömkarlen

If you get nervous about having a lot of records at home you should stick with tapes and CDrs in small editions. It took us (Segerhuva) eight years to sell out Alphaville and Romantic and Deranged by Government Alpha and BLOD. I'm really glad that we did make the effort and that they where available for a long time from us. I've been involved in releases that was gone in matter on of seconds upon release and won't do that again since like people to be able to get the music I like.
When we started Segerhuva we were reacting to the publishing policies of the day. Labels like WKN and world serpent related labels made small and very expensive releases. We felt it was just a big rip off so instead we released two noise vinyls in big editions (500 was big at the time). Not the smartest move financial but I don't regret it for a second. Some of our later CD releases was maybe a bit over the top but you could do sniffdics on editions smaller than a 1000...

FreakAnimalFinland

Asking people to "keep records at home for 10 years" is argument similar to ask people to support label by paying triple price. Some have possibility, others don't. I've seen possibilities of labels in big cities. cramped tiny apartments, and they simply don't have possibility to keep 300 LP's of each their release in storage. If it's up to either do on realistic manner or not do at all.. I guess I prefer the first option. Nevertheless I do hail Segerhuva for amazing job they did. Or do. Something like G.A. LP is prime example which one would hope to be aimed for if there is possibility to do so. But I guess multiple guys running label, is one option rarely used which also makes it possible that it isn't such a heavy burden on one familyman :P
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

kettu

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 02, 2010, 09:59:55 AM



I personally release LP exclusively: to be listened. I don't want to promote idea, that LP is collectable format, and actual listening happens in some "more convenient" way on computer, cd player, ipod, etc.

im not advocating collectables especially with FA who at least nowdays might eventually put out a cd version also but as a strategy for smaller labels to make proffit.
theres people like myself who will eventually buy record players and new furniture to house them but by that time many releases are long gone. in this case the possibility of having the audio on cdr would generate 20 or even much more new customers. Id think thats worth it for someone struggling, to have that money go in your pocket. thats also a tactic. wholesale or trade regulars but offer a chance of getting the cdr when ordered directly from the label.


RG

It's a shame the pressing plants won't accommodate the smaller press runs and give you a fair price for it. With the mainstream "resurgence" of vinyl in the past 5 years or so, you'd think there would be some flexibility.

I wonder if a small operation that specialized in small runs would be a viable business option nowadays? Not talking lathe-cut or whatever, i'm talking a legit record pressing machine. Small operation meaning like 2, 3, or even just 1 person. You probably wouldn't be able to offer all the services that a big plant does, but you can always outsource or workaround some of that stuff like mastering and making the master plate, etc...

Zeno Marx

You have to have a boiler's license, not to mention being incredibly handy and able to tool & dye very specific parts for the old pressing machines.  If you can't do it, you'd have to fly in specialists to diagnose and repair the machines.  The most important people in most factories are the maintenance folk, and you can multiply that importance with anything to do with pressing records.  These are OLD machines we're talking about here.

And then there are environmental regulations that a new shop would likely get nailed with following, and thankfully so.  It's not a nice manufacturing process.  I'd love to see the nasty shit rolling out of GZ because I trust that the government there isn't exactly concerned with slowing down economic progress.

People greatly underestimate the complexity of the record pressing process, and there isn't a lot of "working around" the steps.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.