Pointless jams and synth-wankery

[E.D.K.W.A.R.]

  I've heard a lot of negative criticisms of certain projects/groups for "pointless jams", "synth wanking" etc, and it has got me thinking, At what point does improvisation in noise/industrial become "pointless". Usually the phrases are used when describing a certain style or aesthetic i.e. the whole midwestern hipster/party crew noise like WOLF EYES and their spawn, but what separates their wanking from say, early M.B. (technology 1+2 tapes, com.sa etc) with its long, random passages of lo-fi synth bleeding or  HIJOKAIDAN's forays into brutal sprawling free-jazz/noise (love both btw). Is it the lack of structure to the jam itself, not having enough dynamics, climax, or foreseeable end? Or is it more or less the lack of real theme, content, drive, purpose other than serving a function for a social scene and whigged out psychadelic art? A result of oversaturation in the noise world, leading to lots of pointless, bland generic projects from people who will satisfy their noise-cravings and move on to playing "dark synth pop" once they get girlfriends? Also, any positive or good examples of noise that "jams"? I mean, in my opinion fuckin' DISSECTING TABLE's "life" totally "jams" i.e. i like to crank it up and headbang like crazy to it.....any thoughts?

[tinnitustimulus]

I guess I don't hear anybody hoping to see Double Leopards or The Skaters get back together.

[jesusfaggotchrist]

you must be Disthroned Agony.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Also, any positive or good examples of noise that "jams"?

Define:
"A jam session is a musical event, process, or activity where musicians play (i.e. "jam") by improvising without extensive preparation or predefined arrangements."

This includes pretty much all noise. Industrial or power electronics generally has structure or much more controlled preparation / frame where things are done.

Some may dislike idea of "jamming" all together, who value highly exact composition, controlled focus, etc.

But if one generally accepts the ideas of "sound fishing" (I recall used by Incapacitants), improvisation and jamming, there is still plenty of substance to consider.  Lets say, there are albums that have great sound, there are people who know what they are doing - or might not exactly know, but they do realize what's going on when they reach particular point.  Like in moment of harsh noise piece, flow finally appears to work and you know how to continue from that, instead of passing moment utterly clueless - simply creating "mindless jam". Throw together guys who barely know what they are doing, even less what the others are doing, with nothing interesting sonically. Doing something and putting out "random jam" or playing it for live audience. I don't think it's merely "eye of beholder" thing. Even if jamming or improvisation may not be predefined, it certainly can be valued after it happened. Even if one didn't try to do anything in particular, I could still conclude they failed, hah! ;)

I recall watching document of Klaus Schulze, who was still pretty clueless of what exactly makes his modular synth do what it does. He would be fooling around with buttons, wires and knobs, pulling out weird sounds. But I'm pretty sure that eventually he finds what he's looking for, and knows where to go next.
The "synth wanking", I consider the works of guys who don't appear to know or care. They are captured by technical world of synthesizers and whatever comes out is groovy enough to qualify next release.

Some people like to hear process, not necessarily artists who present well thought or "best of" their creativity. I don't question possibility of enjoying mindless jams and synth wank pieces. One certainly can. Just as one can enjoy generic improvised harsh noise piece what appears to lacks in all levels. But if there was just moment what worked out - then fine.

[Cementimental]

It's easy:

You or your friends / some American dudes recorded it? - Pointless jamz by hipsters.
My friends or I / some Eastern European neo-nazis recorded it? - Excellent meaningful serious milestone of trve industrial culture.

[ironfistofthesun]

I have always viewed the term " jam" as a session where other people are unfamilier with eatch other and communicating only with their instruments. When solo surely it's just experimenting with ideas, No?

I went to the lockup yesterday and spent five hours trying trying out verious techniques to get one sound finished for a track that I have been working on, I could of recorded the five hours and released on a cdr set = Jam.

However I chose to delete, lock up and go home to play with my daughter.

[tinnitustimulus]

The avant garde of the wankfest of live electronics, Silver Apples of the Moon is an interesting record for its time and blew a lot of minds back in the day. Technically and chronologically I could respect it. Now that modulars are big, many people are trying to or ending up recreating this to my annoyance. However, after spending a few hours with a modular I could understand why: it is fun as hell to doodle around modular patches. the process becomes more satisfying than the outcome and frankly that scared me personally of what would become of me if I bought one. Building a Monsturo patch wouldn't be as fun as a complicated Subotnick patch.

Live improvisation needs tactics and strategies, closest thing I can compare to is drawing branches of a tree (hopefully someone else here has tried drawing a tree so I do not seem crazy trying define abstract concepts in my head). Each gesture needs to have mind of the gesture before and after it and each spread tangent forms something familiar but not the same rules as the one before it despite holding on to a base (trunk). Each tangent is neither stiff or loose and doesn't outstay its welcome.

From what is said and I sort of agree, David Tudor is the greatest improviser. He built his own electronics in his later years and did not define any of the controls, sometimes had no idea what it would do. But he had the tactics that he could use anything and get something out of it, and make each change a logical one to one tree branch to another, and to have what would be blind going in and coming out with something that has an ultimate structure.

Of course what is good is still pretty relative, but when I hear improvisation done badly, I visualize a bunch of unnaturally long or thick branches, too stiff or wavy to be considered seriously. I guess this is attempt to explain what a good "jam" is compared to a bad one and its applied pretty broadly. Would Black Leather Jesus be considered a jam band?

Oh and Tim, I'm sure there is people on here that prefer not to hear A Band or Kemialliset Ystavat ;)

[Levas]

I think there are many factors for it. For example dynamics or lack of it. Does the jam has sort of absolution or not, where instruments "meet" each other, sense of control in the actions vs lack of knowledge about the equipment or so. In noise there is always a part of improvisation, but sometimes it's more controlled, otherwise not. And of course it's easier to recognize it when conventional instruments are used - drums, guitars etc. where you get uncomfortable feeling listening to someone having a stroke and grappling with the instrument. But jams might be good too and I don't think it's some sort of a negative term. For example Jazkamer jams nicely and the chaos is enjoyable. I hear synth wankery during almost every rehearsal where people reach some sort of nirvana from beer or something else and start "playing" it without knowing how any key could sound etc. Randomness might bring some nice results, but it's quite rare. Perhaps it sounds funny in noise, saying that "you should know/learn how to play the [X] instrument", but you should at least reach the point where you know what actions with effect/instrument would give what output. Yeah good post. Several lines, nothing said. Word wankery.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

It's easy:

You or your friends / some American dudes recorded it? - Pointless jamz by hipsters.
My friends or I / some Eastern European neo-nazis recorded it? - Excellent meaningful serious milestone of trve industrial culture.

Quite accurate, but this can be easily resersed. Meaning, that whoever you ask, they'll prefer their aesthetics. Ask Volcanic Tongue and sax noise + funny hat will be greatest improv ever seen. Ask east European neo-nazis (if you find any) and one finger Casio drone through distortion will be monumental jam.
For most people, reading someones comment in magazine, review blog, interview, live report etc, it is most likely possible to see slight indications of perspective.

Concept of "mindless jam" to me, is basically revealed in result. If result was crap, your jam didn't go anywhere and didn't interact with any thoughts and ideas.

[dmkerr]

Concept of "mindless jam" to me, is basically revealed in result. If result was crap, your jam didn't go anywhere and didn't interact with any thoughts and ideas.

This.

Unfortunately, the quality of the result is largely subjective.  Consequently, what I may think of as foolish wankery, someone else might see as groundbreaking and hip.  Or vice versa.

[Ritual]

Concept of "mindless jam" to me, is basically revealed in result. If result was crap, your jam didn't go anywhere and didn't interact with any thoughts and ideas.

Agreed! I have no problem with people jamming. The thing that annoys me is when people actually release everything they do, even if the results are mindless and don't go anywhere, instead of listening to the recording with a bit of a critical ear and decide if it's worth releasing or not.

[E.D.K.W.A.R.]

Interesting thoughts, thanks. I suppose too, that it's the same for any genre or style of playing. If people know how to jam and build solid foundations, know when to transition from one point to another and end the fucker then the results would be decent. Still, i feel that intentions have a lot to do with success or failure when improvising. Maybe these things are truly just pointless to begin with, happening only for the sake of "something to do" or "because its easy"...i.e. noise for the sake of noise. Personally, the struggle of achieving the results I want with limited means is a main motivation to make noise....if it was easy for me then it wouldn't be as worthwhile. The outcome of the struggle is the success or failure of the piece...

[FreakAnimalFinland]

As quite recent experience of jam I took part of, was "sonno ferrum group" session. It was.. was it 4 or 5 guys, the usual Finnish suspects, armed with metal junk, amplifiers and very little else. When the session started, it was 100% mindless jam. Exactly the kind of thing where everybody does their own thing, without any attention what is really happening. Total rubbish, I would say. It took few hours and discussions and some guidance from mr. KSNK (it was his vision anyways) what each guy should do, what kind of things to focus, what type of sound to focus, and things started to go to better direction. If it was unrehearsed live set, and we'd just performed the first thing, I'm sure someone would have told it was good group noise jam, but in reality it would have been exactly the kind of rubbish there hardly needs to be more, hah...

[NEHPF]

Oh and Tim, I'm sure there is people on here that prefer not to hear A Band or Kemialliset Ystavat ;)

Somewhat off-topic, but Kemialliset Ystävät doesn't really fit the jamz category. Althought many of the sounds are directed from improvisation and straight up jamming, his music is pretty carefully composed from there by editing and collaging the sounds. And it's actual songs, and not some random sound collages of jamming.

I don't know if you really meant it like that but, just saying.

[Cementimental]

Oh and Tim, I'm sure there is people on here that prefer not to hear A Band or Kemialliset Ystavat ;)

Many people IN the A Band prefer not to hear the A Band. :) Will check out Kemialliset Ystavat, not heard of that. :)