Pentti Linkola

[Andrew McIntosh]

(moderation: this discussion split from playlist topic! )

Ah, Linkola's worldview – the ideas to end all ideology. There is nothing more uncompromising.

Sorry, but I can't agree. I haven't actually read any of his works but if the descriptions from Wiki and other sources are anything to go by, he loves Life. Or at least thinks its worth preserving. If I'm wrong, please prove me so.

[F_c_O]

Ah, Linkola's worldview – the ideas to end all ideology. There is nothing more uncompromising.

Sorry, but I can't agree. I haven't actually read any of his works but if the descriptions from Wiki and other sources are anything to go by, he loves Life. Or at least thinks its worth preserving. If I'm wrong, please prove me so.

uncompromising doesnt mean hatred of life.

[burdizzo]

Ah, Linkola's worldview – the ideas to end all ideology. There is nothing more uncompromising.

Sorry, but I can't agree. I haven't actually read any of his works but if the descriptions from Wiki and other sources are anything to go by, he loves Life. Or at least thinks its worth preserving. If I'm wrong, please prove me so.

uncompromising doesnt mean hatred of life.

Exactly. To interpret that I was suggesting Linkola wants everyone dead is completely incorrect - it just seems like he wants all of the rubbish out of the way. In the sense that Linkola's idea for a better future both incorporates intense violence and a more viable future for a select few people makes it, in my opinion, more uncompromising than any kind of nihilism, "FTW," misanthropy, or suicidal thoughts. It's the fact that something can be striven for which makes it uncompromising. Higher standards.

Yes, like Andy Mc, I haven't read any of his books, either, - and some of his ideas are attractive - but there does seem one major flaw in his hypothesis. As far as I understand it, he'd like to licences for breeding introduced. Superior types would be allowed to have multiple children, while inferior types would not be allowed have any - and I suppose those in between would be allowed one or two offspring. That's all very well in theory, but what do those who are denied the right to breed do? What have they to live for, seeing as one of the things that keeps a functioning society in check is the family unit, like it or not? How would they be imbued with a sense of responsibility, for example? Or would there be hordes of young sterile 'drones' simply falling into line? I don't know how that'd work.
But aside from that, what he's saying does make a lot of sense. Of course it's uncompromising, and there's no one would dare grasp that nettle!

[Andrew McIntosh]

Ah, Linkola's worldview – the ideas to end all ideology. There is nothing more uncompromising.

Sorry, but I can't agree. I haven't actually read any of his works but if the descriptions from Wiki and other sources are anything to go by, he loves Life. Or at least thinks its worth preserving. If I'm wrong, please prove me so.

uncompromising doesnt mean hatred of life.

Yes, that was my point. This Linkola, from what I can see, still sees Life itself as an ends to be achieved and maintained. I wasn't interpreting that Linkola wants everyone dead, and that's why I stated he still loves Life.

He's got the right idea for most people, but sadly not all. A little bit of compromise right there. I'll stick with misanthropy and pessimism; well-worn views, certainly, but no less valid for that. The abolition of human existence is, of course, impossible as a conscious goal, still less total efilism. Probably wouldn't even happen by accident. But still, for me, the only real answer to the Life question.

Not that I want to turn this thread into a philosophical ping-pong game. Peterson is entitled to his views, and I don't want to change them. I'm just biased and adamant, that's all.

[Zeno Marx]

Sounds to me like it all depends on metrics. What exactly is "uncompromising", and how do you measure it?  How do you judge progress, worthiness, strength, etc?  Financial success/economics?  Independence?  Sociability?  Mental stability or strength?  Physical strength?  Health and longevity?  Spirituality?  Kindness and goodness?  Happiness?

It always strikes me as funny, sad, ironic etc that the people who think they have it figured out the best also appear to be the most unsatisfied or least happy.  Sure, there's an argument for why that is.  I get it.  On the other hand, would anyone in their "right" mind not be taken aback a little with a miserable, angry, frustrated, and/or negative energy type telling them they have the answer, or even a better answer?  Wouldn't one of the first logical questions be, "If you got this so better figured out, why doesn't that truth seemingly work more for you?"  If it isn't helping them, why would I bother to adopt any of it.  No different than the perceived irony and hypocrisy with religious types.  If it isn't resulting in something better for you, why would I waste my time on it?  Or that the least peaceful people I've met are most often very religious.  The math doesn't add up (so keep it to yourself).

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Uncompromising is for example lifestyle connected to mans ideology.
At age of 80+, living in cottage with no running water - what sets sort of level of primitivism he settles.

Uncompromising in love of life, that he can point out straight away the flaws of life.
Including flaw of unnecessary duplication of unnecessary human. It is vastly more uncompromising than "misanthropy", if you ask me. Misanthropy, in it's core, is more akin on mental illness, while Linkola's logic of worth of human life and its role within natural existence is far more radical.

As Finn's, most people may have come across his writings from long period of time. Pacifism of the 60's and ecofascism of the later days. There are many phases of ideological development as well as change of society and wold in general. Since 60's till today. Those reading Finnish, can access via Sarastus his MASSIVE interview from few years ago. Those reading English, could possible grasp more about his ideology from eccentric "metal magazine" Quadrivium issue 6. No less than 356 pages A4 size BOOK with.. was it 3 CD's. Inside the book, you will find anything from Goatmoon, Autopsy, Vapaudenristi (very very early), Varg Vikernes etc to no less than 40 pages live interview with Linkola.  It may be difficult to find now, but worth of investment.

Linkola is one of the very very few intellectuals who will argue about positive sides of national socialism (or other, also leftist radical movements). He doesn't bow down in front of modern media. It's too bad, that current climate of publishing industry sees that what is worth to re-issue, is his pacifist 60's book. Not the the books what are actually most crucial and most relevant at this day and age. Man himself seems pessimistic enough to conclude that for man, all is lost at this point and another "discussion" or another "book" will not be worth much.

I don't fully agree with Linkola's point of view. Not about current situation, nor his view on human life in general, but his legacy is undisputed salutation to excellency. Not for swarm of parasites. Not ruin of everything for sake of humane life. I see it has the similarity to vast majority of truly relevant esoteric movements as well strong connection to most valuable extremist political movements what seek to advance both individual as well as evolution, rather than celebrate lowest common denominator of human scum.

This is generally why people don't like Linkola and think he is deranged madman. And reason why he is really one of the more relevant spokesmen of our times, even if you could debate about number of details. I'd hope his deep-ecological writings would be translated and distributed wider than they have been.

[david lloyd jones]

thanks for a Finnish/origins view on Mr linkola.
my experience of him, like most non Finns is via limited English translations and without cultural context-ie uncompromising as fuck neonazi green anarchist type to be lauded in song/print without real idea of his values.
almost like his ideas were a pose to respond to.
clearly his ideas and works need further digesting to give the appropriate response.

[Andrew McIntosh]

He looks pretty pessimistic to me.

Adamsson: How have you endured your career of a reformist, when the disaster is inevitably ahead, then how does one always just have the strength to talk about it?

Linkola: Well, of course it's a fact that the destruction is happening all the time, but that it's not a total one, is a really big difference. But one just clings, like I've said, clings to the little what's left, and from there gains the minimal lifeforce, but the point is that the will to life is biologically so strong in humans, that one nevertheless makes up some explanations as to why not leave by own hand, so to speak. Something like that maybe you can after all reduce with your teachings the load and consumption elsewhere by the amount you cause. Or you think that what will happen, if those only ones, or not only ones, but the few seers, who then see where we have come, where we are, and where we are going. Those few, who see it, if they all leave from here either through suicide or some so severe psychic illness following depression, then there isn't anyone left here, who would even know what it's about.

Adamsson: Pentti Linkola, I just have to ask in conclusion that could life win?

Linkola: Yeah, there's a condition already on the title page, that could life win, and on what conditions. And those conditions then, actually throughout the book, are revealed one by one, and then there's the concluding article in the end, where by different professions a little dull example of a way of life of an alternative society is told. And they are extremely harsh, and then, they aren't rigid at all, when thought in that way, but they are harsh compared to what we have now accustomed to, all this wrong and bully-like wastefulness. But on that condition, that we'll start going to something like it, an entirely different direction. Then life would surely win, but I'd say as the most likely prediction, that probably we won't change and then life will not win.

(Emphasis mine).

From - http://www.penttilinkola.com/pentti_linkola/ecofascism_writings/interview_10-2-2004/

This reminds me of what Ligotti called "heroic pessimism". Those people who do have a cold, realistic appraisal of things as they actually are, but baulk a bit at the consequences (Nietzsche and Camus as well, among others, John Gray, etc.). People who realise the worthlessness and harmfulness of everything but still feel compelled to offer some kind of "hope". Worthy people, to my mind, but still wrong.

I think it takes a special kind of self-delusion to look at the ecological damage we humans are causing - the Anthropocene - and come to any optimistic conclusion about it. This Linkola strikes me as someone without such delusion, which is "good". I suppose one can't help feeling what one does, and he obviously felt and feels he still has to spread his message, his desire for a smaller, greener human world, regardless of reception and consequences. Best of luck to him in spreading his message, but at least he's keeping his feet more in his cabin, forest and fishing boat than in the academies and publishing houses.

[Andrew McIntosh]

Those reading English, could possible grasp more about his ideology from eccentric "metal magazine" Quadrivium issue 6.

Abridged version online -
http://qvadrivivm.blogspot.com.au/2015/12/pentti-linkola-interview-from.html

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

at least he's keeping his feet more in his cabin, forest and fishing boat than in the academies and publishing houses.

I don't know enough about this fella to comment on his work but based on what little I see here and there it's safe to assume he's persona non grata with polite academic and media society.

[cr]

I don't fully agree with Linkola's point of view. Not about current situation, nor his view on human life in general

I don't know any of Linkola's writings in detail, just some parts what could be found easily on the internet. So I would be particularly interested in the exact views on which you don't fully agree with him and why and also what's your point of view on these topics. Thanks!

[Marko-V]

Not a word 'bout his ideals, but having seen him a couple of times at my work and on train to Lapland I gotta say he's a striking figure. Looking just like a forest man who rarely comes out of the woods. I'm sure he's carrying a hunting knife everywhere he goes.

[Peterson]

Parts I've admittedly cherrypicked here and there with translations of Linkola's papers and talks about various subjects seem to be pretty focused on ecology, although I think there's a semi-infamous translation of Could Life Prevail (which deals more with the negative impact of humanity on nature, if I'm not mistaken) involving Michael Moynihan? I think the English-speaking world could benefit radically from proper understanding of his ideas.

http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/rajalla/2014/08/26/sini-saarela-pentti-linkola-ja-kirkko/

Anyway, attempting to roughly translate this article with Google and another website makes it seem like while the rest of the world demonizes the guy a whole lot due to a couple unfriendly perspectives on things, he's largely revered by the ecological community in Finland. Weird how Americans and other people put things in the most sensational context possible - probably because American greed is a huge part of environmental devastation. Disinformation tactics.

It's also funny to see those two people taking a selfie including Linkola while he looks somewhat disdainful.

[bitewerksMTB]

http://www.penttilinkola.com/pentti_linkola/ecofascism_writings/humanflood/

There's Michael Moynihan.

I'm still waiting for  "The Population Bomb"  to go off...

[david lloyd jones]

http://www.penttilinkola.com/pentti_linkola/ecofascism_writings/humanflood/

There's Michael Moynihan.

I'm still waiting for  "The Population Bomb"  to go off...

Mr Moynihan, poshboy europhile does have good qualities and is following his dreams so kudos
as to population bomb, the fuse is sparking on a local level