Logic behind second-hand profiteering

Started by Peterson, April 14, 2017, 11:17:27 PM

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Peterson

Seeing as how I'm just one of many who've whined on this board about folks reselling items at ridiculously inflated prices, I wanted to get some insight from others to understand the logic other than the obvious desire for profit. Before I ramble on any more, I'll specify that what I'm referring to is the resale of recent releases at insane prices - I can understand the idea of selling a rarity that's more than a decade old for profit if it's in great condition, in the sense that hardly anyone wants to let go of old, classic releases unless they really need the money. That's blatantly capitalistic, but I don't see anyone letting go of old Merzbow tapes for very cheap, seems to be the way of the world with sought-after older items.

On the other hand, I've noticed folks selling things for what seems like a delusional asking price - browsing on Discogs, you see recently sold-out releases from fairly popular labels like Lust Vessel, Vitrine, No Rent, and Hospital or what have you. I can understand adding a portion of what you might've paid for shipping as a way to recoup costs/make a small profit which might go to purchasing the mailers, gas for the car, whatever; but I don't see why a Graham Lambkin cassette I can easily find from certain distributors is worth $40 second-hand, nor some C10 by Prurient being $100, and so on, so forth.

Now, let me be fair and say I am something of a hypocrite - I've profited massively off a small handful of rarity scores from more mainstream or at least non-industrial-related bands that didn't much appeal to me; being that certain items were considered to be worth a shitload due to their scarceness. I'm not beating myself up, but I'm not proud of that - it just attaches more of a connection to capitalist mentalities to music, something I actually care about beyond low-level monetary concerns. As such, are the folks I complain about basically following this same logic - that they feel it's not shady to make a profit off of something you can totally live without, but someone else wants badly? How am I or the "unplayed reseller profiteers" any different than a drug dealer?

Probably shouldn't drink any more coffee today, otherwise this could get longer. What are some opinions and observations about profiteering on limited or rare releases? Is there some sort of cutoff point that defines what can be inflated and what should stay at a reasonable price? Who are all these cash-loaded folks who can afford to shell out ridiculous amounts for something originally sold at a fraction of the price?

FiEND

Dom started selling his own stuff at crazy prices some time ago. "Old warehouse box found" yeah sure.  Ramirez pretty infamous for same game. Pretty sure a few known flippers frequent this forum too. Seems some clueless folks are willing to be told about the hottest new releases instead of seeking out the right email lists to be on.

Should also say it's part of limited nature of some releases. 25 copies doesn't really leave much time for the average casual consumer to purchase before poof all gone.  Whether it's intentionally low to drum up obsession (FINDERS) or some new project that figures "how many people will actually care?"

I'm a bookseller by trade & this is not at all uncommon practice among collectors. What's the old saying? "A fool and his money are easily parted."

monotome

I don't care, if I can't buy some copy for decent prices I go get something else. There is already so much music to be had anyways, can't listen to it all.

Theodore

Hm, i think it's OK to sell your personal copy with some profit, if you think it can be sold on that price. This profit is the main reason old / rare releases are available to buy. Stock copy-ies, wait to sold out from everywhere, then appear to sell them triple price - that's totally different ... doing that on purpose, systematically, is something i am totally against, i hate it. The only weapon against them is don't fucking buy from them, no matter how much you want something. To not say steal them !

To be honest, i have some hipster "noise" tapes which i have thought many times to sell them on insane prices. When you see copies have been sold above $50 not only once, then you ask yourself why not to try take advantage too, are you some kind of philanthropist ?
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

Andrew McIntosh

Quote from: Harvest on April 15, 2017, 12:42:36 AMDom started selling his own stuff at crazy prices some time ago.

"Regarding high prices of rare records, that is in the eye of the beholder. I simply price items based on what they are worth to me. It has no reflection on internet sales of the market. It's simply personal expression of how much I value the item". Dom Fenrow in "Special Interests" #5.

And there you have it. Completely arbitrary pricing based on nothing but how much the item is "valued", monetarily of course, and how steep the prices are is "in the eye of the beholder".

I've read loads of justifications for stupid prices. People can do whatever they want with their own money, how much the thing is "valued", blah blah. It's all bullshit, every word of it. I long for the day someone comes out and admits they're a greedy cunt who wants lots of money. That, at least, would be honest, and these days probably commendable in the eyes of some beholders.

It's just the done thing. If I had an old Merzbow tape and wanted to get rid of it, then put it for sale on Discogs for, for example, five bucks, and the same tape is available for fifty or more, I'll bet there's dickheads who'll by-pass my copy and go for the more expensive ones out of some weird belief that the more you pay for something the "better" it will be. It's the same consumerist mentality that has utter twats paying stupid money for a jacket because of the brand, even though they could get a perfectly serviceable garment for one fifth of the price.

There's also that ridiculous mentality that this scene and many others is full of, namely valuing physical items. Nobody wants a rip of an old Merzbow tape when they can have the actual holy relic in their hands. Apparently that makes all the difference, so I've read.
Shikata ga nai.

Zeno Marx

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on April 15, 2017, 04:03:30 AMThere's also that ridiculous mentality that this scene and many others is full of, namely valuing physical items. Nobody wants a rip of an old Merzbow tape when they can have the actual holy relic in their hands. Apparently that makes all the difference, so I've read.
I get a kick out of watching discussions where someone outs themselves for listening to files, and the rest of the group pretty much washes over their posts because they are also somehow deemed less valuable.  Class warfare.

The older I get, the more I appreciate (and try to live by) the adage, "Work smart, not hard."
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

Kim V

Quote from: monotome on April 15, 2017, 01:10:12 AM
I don't care, if I can't buy some copy for decent prices I go get something else. There is already so much music to be had anyways, can't listen to it all.

My position as well. If someone feels like putting stuff on sale for a ridiculously high price and someone else is willing to cough up the money for that, then by all means they should do so. Personally i the most i paid for a single release is about a 100 Euros, and that only 1 time, a Leibstandarte SS MB release. Generally my limit sits at around 25 Euros. I wait till i find the stuff i want for about that price as second-hand item with a decent enough quality. Nothing against buying mp3's either though i do prefer a physical release, if there is one.
you're just a victim of yourself

Duncan

Quote from: KMusselman on April 15, 2017, 06:18:24 AM
What, no one is going to discuss the Millennial position on the subject?!  Probably over half of the forum members fall into this category.  I am SO tired of the me, me attitude and how this whole generation thinks they are owed something...  It's for this reason that i have become a misanthrope.  Sell your goods at ridiculous prices.  I'm not buying it.  FTW.

I totally agree with you, man. Dunno about where you live but in the uk the only things I had that today's generation don't was university grants, affordable housing, better career opportunities in newly developing sectors and qualifications which led immediately to employment. These moaning millenials need to man up and get a couple of jobs so they can finally move out of Mum and dad's into a bedsit where they can actually LISTEN to their rare zyklon ss tapes instead of selfishly flip them to poor, exploited record fetishists. The problem here is people like them, not that a lot of noise fans are a gullible demographic who create false economies.

Bleak Existence

$material$ things i will not bring it to my grave so i try to live with the less material shit i can my #1 rule in life

GEWALTMONOPOL

With the risk of getting bogged down in the usual retard Olympics when airing a view here I'll stick my oar in and say that some people bring it on themselves.

Example 1:

Collector 1 - "I gotta have this rare tape from such and such by so and so"

Resonable Man 1 - "It's just been reissued by a bigger label on CD and re-mastered so you can hear more of the details of the recording now. Cheap too."

Collector 1 - *silence/no interest*


Example 2:

Collector 2 - "When will this be on vinyl man?"

Label 1 - "It won't because it wouldn't fit time wise and also the finer details of the recording comes through just as it should on CD and the CD is still available."

Collector 2 - *silence/no interest*

Sometimes you wonder if it's about the music or the object. In some cases I get the feeling it's about desperation for an object as a teddy bear for a traumatised child.

Först när du blottar strupen ska du få nåd, ditt as...

New Forces

#10
Quote from: GEWALTMONOPOL on April 15, 2017, 03:29:27 PM
With the risk of getting bogged down in the usual retard Olympics when airing a view here I'll stick my oar in and say that some people bring it on themselves.

Example 1:

Collector 1 - "I gotta have this rare tape from such and such by so and so"

Resonable Man 1 - "It's just been reissued by a bigger label on CD and re-mastered so you can hear more of the details of the recording now. Cheap too."

Collector 1 - *silence/no interest*


multiple times after I've played my set at a show

person: "hey, great set, do you have any tapes??"

me: "no, sorry, they're all sold out. but I do have these pro-CD's with my best work on them"

person: mutters something and walks away from the merch table



Example 2:

Collector 2 - "When will this be on vinyl man?"

Label 1 - "It won't because it wouldn't fit time wise and also the finer details of the recording comes through just as it should on CD and the CD is still available."

Collector 2 - *silence/no interest*

Sometimes you wonder if it's about the music or the object. In some cases I get the feeling it's about desperation for an object as a teddy bear for a traumatised child.



Some variation on this conversation often happens after I play a set.

person: "hey, great set, do you have any tapes for sale??"

me: "nope, all sold out, but I do have these Pro-CD's with some of my best work on them!"

person: mutters something incoherent and walks away
New Forces
https://newforces.bigcartel.com

Kjostad
Breaking The Will
Form Hunter
Cryocene

FreakAnimalFinland

Due working in a record-store, I come across related thing all the time. Meaning, that in Finland, so many people keep reading the stupid articles about "vinyl is in again" and "you might have valuable items in your shelves" -category, that it has totally clouded the reality.
Just about everybody thinks they are holding some utterly expensive and rare items, while almost without exception, they are not.

Related to this, I had quite amusing discussion with one customer who brought pile of CD's and I told how much I'd be willing to pay for them, and he said "then I'd be losing money". As if it would have ever been true that selling your unwanted, used, bulk CD's is about "creating profit".

Most of the time, one would have to accept that used records are like used goods in general. If it isn't something utterly rare and exceptional, it's something in similar with items of flee-market discount bin - not antique trophies hidden in locked vitrine.

It's hard to be sure what are the prices that actually are paid. Just recently, friend told that there was guy selling 80's industrial tapes with 15-25 pricetags at discogs and he made offer c. 5 euro each for bunch of them. And deal was made instantly. Others may see expensive items disappearing that they have drooled for months, but perhaps didn't realize they didn't necessary sell for the mentioned price but fraction of it? One can always say that "market defines the prices", but can one make this assumption based on 1 case of item being sold? Often you see specific items sitting year after year for sale, which indicates price is too high. If it gets sold at some point, is it sign of right price, or isolated case of one desperate collector in moment on brief "well, fuck, it hurts only one" -feeling. Which will never happen again, but few opportunists keep their personal collection listed online just to hope this happens someday again.

When case is tapes, limited to XX copies, it's too bad that good noise tapes are at hands of dealers, not the listeners. Money you can make from some noise tape is so small, that it seems utterly stupid to vault items for years in dream of making 5usd or 10usd "profit", when you could just sell it for price that gets it into circulation.

However, I think current times appear that second-hand profiteering isn't that huge issue, since we live now moment when it can be CHEAPEST and easiest to grab noise. If you are willing to give it a try for other things than rare Proiekt Hat or Prurient, you can get shitloads of great stuff for bargain prices.
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BlackHole

If you think this is an issue in the industrial/PE world, you should see what happens in the black metal world. Honestly, I have never really felt like I "overpaid" for PE tape or LP ever. Even old classics like Brighter Death Now can be bought for very reasonable prices. Tons of great tapes and records from the past decade or so still available on discogs for very cheap, not much if any more expensive than original retail price. Black metal on the other hand, records will sell for 3 or 4 times the original price within days of selling out. A black metal record that cost $18 on release will sellout in under an hour and sell immediately be flipped on discogs $80. It's absurd. I don't see this happening nearly as much in the industrial and PE world. I feel like labels like Hospital, Tesco, and Galakthorrö have a cult following and a fan base that extends outside of the industrial underground, so their releases are inherently collectible regardless if the content is actually *that* good to justify the price. Every once in a while there will be a release that comes out and generates some hype in the PE scene and will get flipped for a lot of money, but from what I can that is relatively rare compared to other genres.

holy ghost

Quote from: BlackHole on April 17, 2017, 09:45:54 AM
If you think this is an issue in the industrial/PE world, you should see what happens in the black metal world.

I bought that last Sortilegia 7" right when it was put on sale and I get emails weekly from discogs users asking if they can buy my copy. I should have bought two copies.

I've been flipping my old records for realistic yet sane prices on discogs for years now - typically I price at the low end of the spectrum, move them quickly and take that cash and buy myself some record I want. When you can sell an At The Gates SotS LP for $80 I'm not going to say no.... I don't do this to screw anyone over, it's literally shit that's been sitting in my house unlistened to for years. I'm not going to go and dump them at a used record store because it's simply not worth it, and with a little extra legwork I'm flush with cash I wouldn't have.

But FAF is right - "market defines the price". I see all kinds of insane shit on discogs but most people aren't stupid enough to pay these insane prices unless, most of the time....