Sample Subtlety

[RUG]

I accidentally received a copy of the AZAB- Counterfire Assault Electronics LP instead of the recent Bizarre Uproar I had ordered, and rather than hassle with returning it overseas (in addition to the label ignoring my email) I figured I'd hang on to it, even though it's not something I'd been overly interested in. After giving it a listen I have to say it has one of the worst uses of sampling I have encountered, to such a degree that it makes it difficult to take the rest of the record seriously. What started out as a potentially great ominous sample about numbers of liquidated, cleaning up soil etc. was quickly ruined by a lengthy description of gas chamber maintenance and Jews. I could not help but think of the missed opportunity, the cold and clinical nature of the first portion of the sample would have been incredibly tasteful for the purposes, but instead was rendered useless by some stupid Hollywood nazi dialogue with no sense of subtlety. The noise for the rest of the album was not all that bad, but I couldn't get past the vibe of try-hard extremism removed from anything interesting.

So I'm not just complaining, what are some of the best uses of samples that perfect a dark/mysterious atmosphere? I absolutely love being overcome with a sense of intrigue in some sinister context, and the "edgier" variants of PE seem like an ideal spot to find it, I'm just so put off by the cheapness of a lot of it that I haven't delved too far (excluding obvious examples, I do see the distinction between something like XE and the above mentioned record). 

[PTM Jim]

I kind of hate samples, especially ones from Hollywood movies. And that's not even anything against Hollywood films, I just feel like that are too easy. Especially things like Nazi samples because, without a doubt, the filmmaker and anyone involved in the film is adamantly anti-Nazi. I was always surprised when a band like Der Sturmer uses samples from Fight Club and 300; it just seems out of place.
However, when a decent, never-used news sample or speech or something hits the theme perfectly, then it is always welcome by me.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

The monologue at the beginning of GO's Dogday is such perfection it almost makes the actual track superfluous. In the opinion of this industrial music fan it's never been bettered.

[a_2_g_2]

The beginning of Dogday is one my favorite samples in PE. I think the sample that runs through the entirety of Atrax Morgue's "Mind of a Killer" is great.  

[Andrew McIntosh]

Not to want to divert from what is a decent discussion, but for what it's worth that AZAB album is on Bandcamp. The material comes from the telemovie "Conspiracy" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(2001_film)). It really didn't sound all that clumsy to me, actually - two separate samples presented as tracks in themselves is a bit filler but nothing terrible. What did sound clumsy was the noise itself, pretty below-average sounding digital stuff.

It's possible to take whole chunks of material and present it as something different. Brighter Death Now's "Heart of Stone", which is basically just lifted from the English language version of "Salo", for example.

I always liked the vocal sample from Blood ov Thee Christ's "Behind The Bars". No idea where it comes from which is one of the incentives to like it. Sounds fucked up and a bit strange.

[IVX]

The monologue at the beginning of GO's Dogday is such perfection it almost makes the actual track superfluous.

100% agree

[RUG]

Not to want to divert from what is a decent discussion, but for what it's worth that AZAB album is on Bandcamp. The material comes from the telemovie "Conspiracy" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(2001_film)). It really didn't sound all that clumsy to me, actually - two separate samples presented as tracks in themselves is a bit filler but nothing terrible. What did sound clumsy was the noise itself, pretty below-average sounding digital stuff.  

I thought the first sample was better, although nothing special, what bothered me mostly about the second one (besides the cheesy acting) was the gratuitously explicit nature of the clip. I think there is a lot to be said for the power of a statement that requires one to mentally "discover" the context, even if it only takes a moment, whereas that is completely lost when things get over the top. Really the samples as they played out added nothing more than the imagery on the cover, which itself was boring to begin with. I am not very familiar with the artist so I might be wrong, but it feels like lazy derivative work drawing off Kramer's projects and little else (the metal "covers" reinforce my suspicion there). As pointed out above, the production of this telemovie is certainly anti-Nazi, so using it feels neither sincere or artistically interesting. I was less bothered by the noise than you I think, but certainly nothing I would deliberately pay for, and very run of the mill.

I agree that GO sample is incredible, and I think it has the ideal level of cryptic atmosphere these sorts of tracks should strive for.

I will have to check out the Atrax Morgue and Blood ov Thee Christ recs, thanks!

[FreakAnimalFinland]

especially ones from Hollywood movies. And that's not even anything against Hollywood films, I just feel like that are too easy.

I think amount of movie and document samples has decreased quite a lot?
I was talking about this with friend and his theory was, that back in the 80's and even 90's, a lot of fringe information was fairly scarcely available. To have VHS copy or audio tape of some obscurity, added quite a lot to piece of work.
Now, in other hand, all the information is out there. You want to see harsh and disturbing document or sample nazi speaches, it's about as difficult as checking what's popular now at Netflix.
This has changed role of samples, that they appear easy and generic, instead of hard to find transgressive information that adds music the same aura. Now the aura might be just "ahh.. so this guy is watching youtube, ok.."

If I know, where sample comes from, it usually decreases the effect. Hollywood movies being good example. I'm sure Grunt did take few bits and pieces from Hollywood movies back in 90's, but I'm sure it was never like Propergol or such. Or think about new Grey Wolves with Samuel L. Jackson oneliner...  huh...  Netzach LP with long piece of Terminator 2...

Problem with nazi speeches is basically only that they have been all used so many times, in exactly same versions. If talking about the original german speeches. It is surprising how little old tapes of Bob Matthews, David Lane or such speeches are used? I guess it might be simply that availability is not so easy. Something more recent used, it often turn rather banal. Few samples of current years immigrant crisis or act of terror, pasted over noise can sound like someone is watching news while you try to listen noise. Not good.

That Genocide Organ sample, it is eerie. It has very little, if anything to do with dogday song I'd say. But it still fits as opening of album. Dogday being more of serial kill / son of sam and sample being something else. Perhaps this combination adds to mystery, that it is not anything so obvious, but connects serial killing, militia training camps and such themes under bigger theme.

[collapsedhole]

voice samples can totally make or break a track, and if i don't know where the sample is from i tend like it much more. sometimes when the message behind the music can be viewed so ambiguously they can certainly go a long way to enforcing the type of atmosphere that otherwise could only be conveyed through track titles or artwork.

[THE RITA HN]

I remember hearing TAINT for the first time back in the 90s and thinking the samples were extremely powerful.  Even non-noise fan friends of mine were buying his releases just for the pure atmosphere of the samples driving many of the tracks. 
The only time back in the 90s that I thought the samples were too heavy / dominant was when I first listened to the MAFIA VS. YAKUZA release, but I think it was because I was too focused on getting new OVMN material and hearing it's sheer HN masterpower. 
I always loved the concept of Sotos' BUYER'S MARKET, as yes, obviously a full album of samples from someone like Sotos is expected, but the fact that the CD has a noise / music related background is interesting.  The Sotos CD turns into a sheer document that on it's own, frames the music and noise releases by directly related artists that surrounded it for it's listeners (not to mention Sotos' WHITEHOUSE association).

[Bloated Slutbag]

I remember hearing TAINT for the first time back in the 90s and thinking the samples were extremely powerful.  Even non-noise fan friends of mine were buying his releases just for the pure atmosphere of the samples driving many of the tracks.

The scope of Victimology is certainly convincing. And the noise is pretty good too. I wonder, however, if the sincerity might be called into question as it is doubtful that the clips were sourced from a documentary entitled Perversion At All Costs.

I suppose one thing about samples is, regardless of context, they essentially are what they are. Room for interpretation is relatively static. A lyric or a piece of poetry/prose, by contrast, can evolve over time... one day I'll make one association, the next day another... maybe I imagine I get it, maybe I don't (or don't care to). For me, samples seem to bypass certain mental processes and (perhaps as a result) tend to stick rather more indelibly in mind. By the way, do you know how many time zones there are in the Soviet Union?

[Zeno Marx]

Stratvm Terror

1)  if done well, both in choice of sample, length, placement, number of samples that can affect both previous and following samples impact
2)  can potentially date something to detriment*
3)  can potentially date something to benefit*
4)  can rip into the flow to detriment
5)  can aid in flow to benefit
6)  as a substitute, or alternative, to lyric

*As for dating and context, like FreakAnimalFinland said, if you didn't live pre-internet, the whole perspective of samples is totally different. Both the way we gathered information and processed information was different.  Was it lazy or trite in 1987?  Not as likely.  Is it lazy or trite in 2017?  Likely.  It's one of those tools that has probably lost its utility and impact.  Now it is probably better to allude to that subject, situation, piece of art, etc.  Bring attention to it, but then let the audience seek it out within thirty seconds via google.  I'm not sure how you would quite do that in a smart way, but slapping exposure to something via sample is heavyhanded and underwhelming today.  Or hell of a lot more likely to be anyway.  Anything can be successful if smartly done, but like with writing and writers, very few people have that capacity at a high level.