Special Interest

THESE ARE SOME MESSAGES ROUGHLY BUTCHERED FROM "TRUE CRIME" - TOPIC. I MOVED IT TO MAIN NOISE SECTION... -Moderator

Quote from: Strömkarlen on May 28, 2012, 02:41:20 PM

Quote from: vlai44 on May 27, 2012, 12:12:12 AM
Nothingisttrue facing 30 years in prison under the Dangerous Offender statute.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/05/state_plans_to_argue_a_portlan.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/05/state_plans_to_argue_a_portlan.html)

Quotefirst-degree sodomy

Didn't know there was different degrees.

Depends on the amount of lubrication used.

Guess he's upped the ante of what's "keeping it real" in power electronics is about. Walk the walk, etc.

That's what he kept saying in Troniks before got kicked out. I consider it being more of egocentric american hipster approach than the "PE" / "industrial".

Was reading quote from mr. Diego Rivera, where his prophecy of art was "If artists refuses to seek and accept topics/substances, his own esthetic theories and plasticism will become the substance. If he can avoid that, the topics of works will be just himself".
NIT surely managed to reject noise and substance and eventually be just all about himself and his boring HIV infected prison girlfriends and beaten up human wrecks. His ability to repeat same stories over and over again - whether as himself or under impression he was some other guy just informing of Kyle's recent misbehavior - was perhaps reaching the level of art already in its repetitive pattern. But substance of it, I don't think there's any? Me me me me..... look at me me me... 



Over here, couple days ago, young boy armed with rifles he took from his dad's possession had a sniper style shooting in middle of small city Hyvinkää. 2 dead, 7 wounded. One police officer in critical condition. It was late night and he was using silencer, so people started to fall, but at first did not realize someone was shooting.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 28, 2012, 08:18:31 PM
That's what he kept saying in Troniks before got kicked out. I consider it being more of egocentric american hipster approach than the "PE" / "industrial".

Was reading quote from mr. Diego Rivera, where his prophecy of art was "If artists refuses to seek and accept topics/substances, his own esthetic theories and plasticism will become the substance. If he can avoid that, the topics of works will be just himself".
NIT surely managed to reject noise and substance and eventually be just all about himself and his boring HIV infected prison girlfriends and beaten up human wrecks. His ability to repeat same stories over and over again - whether as himself or under impression he was some other guy just informing of Kyle's recent misbehavior - was perhaps reaching the level of art already in its repetitive pattern. But substance of it, I don't think there's any? Me me me me..... look at me me me... 

Ah, didn't realize he was that guy. Who knows, maybe some reporter will sniff out his subcultural belonging and try to whip up a sensationalist storm around P.E. Unlikely anyone would care, though.

QuoteOver here, couple days ago, young boy armed with rifles he took from his dad's possession had a sniper style shooting in middle of small city Hyvinkää. 2 dead, 7 wounded. One police officer in critical condition. It was late night and he was using silencer, so people started to fall, but at first did not realize someone was shooting.

Read about that, he was quoted saying it "was fun" on the internet. Any further info on his motivation besides small-town boredom?

Another out of control, self destructive, weak and dangerous asshole ruins his life. No sympathy. Fuck him. He's heading where he belongs and long may he remain there.

My brother worked as a prison guard for a few years and I must have heard hundreds of stories about people like this guy. They are all, without fail, weak, sad and ultimately boring. I see no value in him at all.  I find self destructive people with no control over their lives repulsive.

Exactly. IF he was able to produce great noise or make art of his anti-social impulses, it could be more interesting.

Now when big part of his noise appeared to be someone elses noise and in large view, very diverse in quality (assuming the bad stuff was himself trying to be what the stuff he simply ripped off from others releases were?), and none of his acts would different from the everyday's news you hear, I doubt he will get the following of SPK, hah... 
While people outside "PE scene" seem to think everybody worship and goes crazy after this guy, it might be hard to understand that such actions hardly matters to vast majority. In reality he never managed to even get beyond CDR/tape phase - which tells a bit about the "popularity" and "worship" he gets.

I did one of his early releases on cdr back in 2004 when he appeared to be young promising act and I did bunch of releases from such new starting projects. Out of several CDR's of stuff I found c. 30 mins worth putting out. Who knows who's material that actually? Met him back in 2005, seemed ok guy, yet hardly anything else. Not much recollections.

It appears he was simply trying to build some sort of myth around him. So much he was talking about these same incidents, it suddenly is becoming clearer that there might not be that many of them afterall? I'm quite sure anyone who's involved in some sort of subculture, knows plenty of cases of violence, sex, drug abuse, homicides, suicides, incidents with police or security service, etc etc. Unless you can use it as substance to achieve something higher, as far as I'm concerned, it just belongs among the human mud together with the clueless savages and the culture of "keepin' it real".  If every HIV infected loser beating up their women would be the hero, I'm sure for example south african themed afronoise would be top popularity? Fortunately even PE isn't about worshipping average or less than average losers and their daily life failures.


Finnish rifle sniper case is still under investigation. No details yet about the reasons. They say it might have been just an "impulse".

Why though Mikko, do you have to point out "American"?

Every time I see you posting that its almost as if I'm reading the word "nigger" instead.

Because at least in context of noise/pe, it's more american than european phenomena? It's been discussed many times in different topics what makes US & Euro noise/pe different, and this factor is probably one?
Of course it doesn't apply to all americans, but still it's not a surprise Kyle's case is American, and not for example Swedish or English.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 29, 2012, 09:03:58 AM
Because at least in context of noise/pe, it's more american than european phenomena?

People acting like jackasses?

Hardly.

No, but more often making noise/PE projects about themselves. Or the mundane interests.
Not having substance what radiates the persona behind it, which at least to me is great difference.

It was talked for example in Jason Crumer interview of SI#7, where question about change of content in USA noise (/pe) was asked. How big % this affects? Probably enough to acknowledge it.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 29, 2012, 09:27:18 PM
No, but more often making noise/PE projects about themselves. Or the mundane interests.
Not having substance what radiates the persona behind it, which at least to me is great difference.

It was talked for example in Jason Crumer interview of SI#7, where question about change of content in USA noise (/pe) was asked. How big % this affects? Probably enough to acknowledge it.

Jason Crumer was for sure the wrong person to ask.

You've seen the interview?

question was this:

QuoteYou mention "newish wave of USA noise". In some ways, many of the older noise may have felt quite international. Following some traditions of for example european industrial/pe or japanese noise. Being part of international mail network. Perhaps scenes have been "localized" or "normalized" by actual personal contacts. Popular live gigs, face to face communication and such? As result, do you think there is now something particularly more american and something which has common wibe around the states? For example when you mention that basic american society is perverse enough for you. It appears as if a lot of noise changed from transgressive cultural extremes to wacky semi-pop culture references. Records made about skateboarding, horror movies, gay rights, romance, poetry, or whatever... Where it's more likely to see graphics closer to Sonic Youth than Genocide Organ and see noise releases distributed by indie companies and sold in corners of strange boutique shops - instead of the old tradition reminding nearly mail-order porno catalogues.

Which may not apply to american P.E. as a whole, but P.E. as just fringe of noise scene (which it seems to be), most definitely. It was about noise anyways. I don't really consider NIT as "PE" band. I can't see much reasons why it would be more than "noise"?

NIT's approach doesn't differ from this contemporary personal fame & egocentric approach of media youth. And I'm sure you don't need to ask many to show how the "new wave of usa" has changed to nature of noise. Even if all people don't belong to it. That his life happened to have some violence he celebrates to meaningless dullness, doesn't transform it to "industrial" or "PE". It remains the noise diary of egocentric new wave. Seemingly transgressive, but to me very shallow pop.

Of course the stories are nice. It isn't out of place to celebrate forced piss-drinking session. Just how its done, reveals motivations that are utterly lame. It isn't really John Duncan we're talking about.

Jason Crumer most definitely knows what he's talking about - since he's admittingly one of them. Not necessarily a "scene band", but most definitely narcissist and egocentric and does it very well. Although being the scumbag badboy, he actually makes amazing art - not just try to stir worship & attention with his (rumored) actions, but gets praise/attention despite it? Perhaps exact antithesis on NIT although on exact same arena.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 31, 2012, 10:09:44 AM
You've seen the interview?

question was this:

QuoteYou mention "newish wave of USA noise". In some ways, many of the older noise may have felt quite international. Following some traditions of for example european industrial/pe or japanese noise. Being part of international mail network. Perhaps scenes have been "localized" or "normalized" by actual personal contacts. Popular live gigs, face to face communication and such? As result, do you think there is now something particularly more american and something which has common wibe around the states? For example when you mention that basic american society is perverse enough for you. It appears as if a lot of noise changed from transgressive cultural extremes to wacky semi-pop culture references. Records made about skateboarding, horror movies, gay rights, romance, poetry, or whatever... Where it's more likely to see graphics closer to Sonic Youth than Genocide Organ and see noise releases distributed by indie companies and sold in corners of strange boutique shops - instead of the old tradition reminding nearly mail-order porno catalogues.

Which may not apply to american P.E. as a whole, but P.E. as just fringe of noise scene (which it seems to be), most definitely. It was about noise anyways. I don't really consider NIT as "PE" band. I can't see much reasons why it would be more than "noise"?

NIT's approach doesn't differ from this contemporary personal fame & egocentric approach of media youth. And I'm sure you don't need to ask many to show how the "new wave of usa" has changed to nature of noise. Even if all people don't belong to it. That his life happened to have some violence he celebrates to meaningless dullness, doesn't transform it to "industrial" or "PE". It remains the noise diary of egocentric new wave. Seemingly transgressive, but to me very shallow pop.

Of course the stories are nice. It isn't out of place to celebrate forced piss-drinking session. Just how its done, reveals motivations that are utterly lame. It isn't really John Duncan we're talking about.

Jason Crumer most definitely knows what he's talking about - since he's admittingly one of them. Not necessarily a "scene band", but most definitely narcissist and egocentric and does it very well. Although being the scumbag badboy, he actually makes amazing art - not just try to stir worship & attention with his (rumored) actions, but gets praise/attention despite it? Perhaps exact antithesis on NIT although on exact same arena.

Yes I had to read it. Jason still sounds like the jackass he was at Neon Marshmellow Festival and so full of himself. (Watching him fall apart while performing was one of my personal highlights of that fest.).

On top of that his business/professional credentials are in the shitter as well. Too broke and too retarded to mail stuff out?!?!? Anyone in Finland play those games? And yet you still woo over them because of their past work?

His opinion is quite weak and has nothing to do with the Industrial/PE/noise scene that I was apart of in the Midwest. He spoke for himself and himself only.

Quote from: KHH on May 31, 2012, 12:09:32 PM
NIT website hosted on FA server is still up, that's kinda funny

yeah, hah! I have not had ftp program of connection for like... 3 years? That's why something like Grunt site as well is last updated.. 2009? There has been some cleaning up and as soon as my webmaster gets time, new Grunt site and also NIT will be bye bye. Already while ago was most of old useless sites erased (such as Creamface, Lolita Slavinder Records, Pain Nail, Clinic Of Torture, TäysiQ, etc) but some still remain.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on May 31, 2012, 06:40:19 PM
On top of that his business/professional credentials are in the shitter as well. Too broke and too retarded to mail stuff out?!?!? Anyone in Finland play those games? And yet you still woo over them because of their past work?

His opinion is quite weak and has nothing to do with the Industrial/PE/noise scene that I was apart of in the Midwest. He spoke for himself and himself only.

If we talk of his music and him as artists, issues such as if he's reliable businessman are irrelevant. I would never order anything from Crumer and I do not recommend anyone to do so. But I strongly recommend to order latest CD from Second Layer. This is perhaps the great sign of phenomena what I was talking about.
Music is normalized and localized and it's not really about if his album is good, but who's buddy he was and whether he was nice guy. This soon infiltrates into actual content of music and artwork.

I base my opinion on observation, meeting & discussing with people. There can exists people and "scenes" out there I know nothing about. But question is not whether there are exceptions - few or a lot of them - but of change where obviously and without doubt scene isn't what it used to be. 
Like what would be popular genre defining labels like MSNP, Self Abuse, Deadline, AWB, Arbeit Group, Armed & Loaded, Aeon, DOM usa, Circle Of Shit, Jinx, Sound Of Pig, Taint Entertainment, Banned,... etc etc...   compared with  No Fun Prod, Rainbow Bridge, Chondritic Sound, Blossoming Noise, Hanson, Apop, American tapes, gods of tundra, etc etc..    Of course there will always exists the fringe area of harsh and transgressive noise (say TF/PE, Trash Ritual, and so on), but nobody could deny that the stream of popular noise from USA that defined the "uprise" of new american noise is something that approaches noise often from very different angle. I don't say the labels would be bad. I worship some of them who took the "new" approach, yet I can't associate myself well for the mentality of "generation y". I guess we need Zeno Marx to explain the generation difference and the change in scene where shift of attention from Jap noise or euro industrial/ambient was taken over by American new wave noise? hah...

QuoteSocial psychologists and journalists like New York Times columnist David Brooks argue that the way our generation uses social media sites reveals a level of self-promotion not found among previous generations.
They say Generation Y has turned into Generation Me. Apparently our egoism is just a click away.

Phenomena is global, yet in form of actual releases, I see differences between continents. That some do not belong and some do not even know what the hell is talked about, doesn't change what just about every social psychologists and experts have studied and pointed out. Even when being seemingly outsider, observations seem to apply.

This shouldn't really be in the True Crime thread and I look forward to anyone posting more news or research on Luka soon.

However - split in noise scene attitudes above described by Mikko is something I remember first from the mid-90s. New acts largely influenced by Japanese absurdist attitude rather than original PE came along - labels like Chocolate Monk, acts like Evil Moisture. Some OK, some not. Smell & Quim members of the time would pass around letters from Joe Roemer and laugh at his corny tough-guy attitude in entertained bemusement - felt phoney compared with 80s PE. American Tapes has a lot to answer for in helping to create annoying empty hipster scene of today though.

Some more true crime now: http://5nletters.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/dear-shasta.html

I may split the topic soon if it turns out discussion carries forward.

Certainly the split has happened several times in different ways.
Perhaps even in Japanese noise, you can see the provocateurs and mess makers and those involving with the sexual oddieties etc. Which did transform to something else. Involving the original provocateurs themselves.

You can take a look into germany, and at the same time, when there would be the "back to basics" legacy of Tesco related, one could easily point out Selektion label for example, who did crossover to PE (neuengamme), but most certainly hardly "industrial" in that way. You can also check out for example Drone Records, which was spawn in 1991 which certainly would not be among "bad boy" labels, even if they'd have some of the same bands (Inade, S*Core, Stabat Mors, etc).

But I don't mean so much the split between the bad boys & vile aesthetics vs. good guys & neat aesthetics, but the personification to mundane ego. Even Smell & Quim, Evil Moisture and such would be quite anonymous from outside view. Did we even know the real name of people behind S&Q at the time? We would see their absurd elvis routine or get some Non-Stop Robotic Stinky Horse Fisting, but it would be noise from person, not person from noise - if you know what I mean? We would know these people, including Roemer, only by few extravagant stories. They would be most of all mythical people for everybody else but their friends perhaps?

In those times it was most often artists or bands we don't know, who's art we judge from quite clean table. Who appear to have no other motivation than to get their stuff heard.

Now it is more and more social scene, and people appear with their faces about their personal issues and mundane interests. Where releases may be dedicated to certain pedal, or good movie or sport. Where online promotion and announcement happens in their facebook, what blurs further the line between what is your art and what is your diary of announcing latest meals, travel plans and such. With people following what they friends are doing or what cool dudes are doing. Not necessarily interested to observe what is good out there. Releasing stuff is suddenly more issue of friendship and mutual interests, rather than is the material actually really good.

In such context everytime when NIT rises its head, it is not about what he has produced as artists, but he will promote himself as person. It is not the thing we find out, when he explains his visions about the culture, politics, music or such. But it will hit you into face like tabloid gossip or womens magazine article about someone famous.
We may get sucked into this "lifestyle media" approach. People would be interested to check out where Greh eats his dinner according to his Facebook status and who he met, and this similar mundane interests is - well, I would say opposition to Special Interests, hah!

It's hard to blame too much American Tapes or someone like Gods Of Tundra, which appears to be one of the ultra underground labels, where he does what he does no site, barely no contact, no forum presence, etc etc.  But still we know that people like Conelly may be without wanting, the icons of personification of noise. Together with Fernow etc. These guys have done a lot of work to end up as public interest. The approach it spawns, that it is assumption this is default standard, is what bugs me.  Where noise lost its edge of obscurity (be it bad boys, anonymity or absurd dada) and is like any other pop culture product of its time and every act appears to be method to be noticed. But noticed for what?

Of course one could say who am I to talk, with couple thousand messages on forum I started, hah, but for me difference is quite clear.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 31, 2012, 09:54:26 PMwhere Greh eats his dinner...

...where his favourite post office is...

I moved some messages of True Crime topic here, as it's most of all noise discussion.

Quote from: Peterson on May 31, 2012, 10:54:59 PM
Bottom line is you're pathetic if you can't control those kinds of urges. Plenty of outlets to choose from. Someone who acts on that sort of thing never had the ability to control or understand it in the first place, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't condemn the actions themselves at all. If for example NIT feels he needs to make video of his woman licking piss from the floor, under threat of beating her up, I won't be having any moral dilemmas about it. Wasn't there Nicole 12 track playing on background of one of the clips? I had such recollection.

My problem is not with the actions, my problem is with tabloid journalism level self promotion. Clip was ok, yet, would have been good if it was 1) well done 2) well presented & published 3) with some idea. It would have worked as piece of art, rather than document of some dysfunctional domestic life he got jailed for. It could have been wonderful piece of fine art, but ended up being "heeyyy!! loook at mee!!".

I could tell from NIT's review of bermuda drain that he has some genuine knowledge of noise music. However, I also think its pathetic for people to fully succumb to their urges and vices instead of displaying the strength to channel them. I really had to question his intelligence when he made those posts on the troniks board a few months ago and tried to be anonymous about it and then when people started to critique his shared sounds on soundcloud he came right out thanking people, and then Xdugef  totally called him out. I certainly did not appreciate NIT trying to get attention by shoving his stories down my throat. I dont respect him any more for making his fantasy a reality, I believe power electronics is fundamentally about taking power for yourself, he now has no power whatsoever in the shackles of the state.

This divide Grunt writes about is clearly visible in the American noise scene, there are two sides to the American noise coin. Plain Noise & PE. There are good and bad examples of both and plenty of crossover. I will say that with my own work, coming from the SF bay area 'brutal sound effects' scene I have learned the prevailing ideology towards noise here is of the free art / almost contentless textured sound, which is not necessarily good or bad, but its obvious how deep the influence of Wolf Eyes / AT runs into each individual project here, many people from Michigan and Ohio live in SF now. This used to be the home of Harsh Noise Fest, where Control & Con-Dom and Sickness and Slogun, ect have performed. http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarblackvomit/sets/723834/ Those days are gone. I took a look at what was around me and had to reconcile that with my personal interests, 80's power electronics ONLY, and I knew that I could not call my music Power Electronics out of arrogance or ignorance, but to distance myself from those around me. Blood Into Water, Miscreant, and now Disgust are the only three currently active pure Power Electronics bands I can find in the sf bay area right now [in addition to my own], amid a sea of other noise projects. I will remain here indefinitely until I can accomplish my goals with my music.  

I was messaging crumer many months back and he told me of his new  "power electronics" project releasing their debut tape, i was very excited to hear that and sent him cash in the mail for that tape, fast foreward 11 months later I get a cd with ice cream dessert mess artwork.

I won't defend his project but I will defend finding humour in watching human train wrecks.

Mikko, its interesting you mention Jinx.

Had a conversation with Jeffery the other day and he feels that there are not enough "walk the talk" folks in the US Power Electronics scene...and he's hardly from this so called "Me Me Me Generation".

Also, haven't you stated in that past that you view yourself as "the seer of decay" when it comes to Grunt right? So its still coming back to you, one way or the other.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 31, 2012, 09:54:26 PM
Releasing stuff is suddenly more issue of friendship and mutual interests, rather than is the material actually really good.

Is this in relation to America? Or the scene overall? You're fooling yourself pretty badly if you think that only Americans do this....its prevalent and obvious in all countries and their scenes.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 05, 2012, 10:34:39 PM
Mikko, its interesting you mention Jinx.

Had a conversation with Jeffery the other day and he feels that there are not enough "walk the talk" folks in the US Power Electronics scene...and he's hardly from this so called "Me Me Me Generation".

Yeah, but as said, it's not an issue of "walk the talk". I have no problems at all with his actions per se. As stated very clearly? We can't really know how many deal with "obscure" interests of theirs in so called real life, but I'm assuming many don't make big deal out of it.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 05, 2012, 10:34:39 PM
Also, haven't you stated in that past that you view yourself as "the seer of decay" when it comes to Grunt right? So its still coming back to you, one way or the other.

Seer of Decay lyrics (printed in cover) quite clearly explain the ideology behind the words. I don't know what exactly you try to say?

Power Electronics/Harsh Noise/Industrial is just another genre of musical entertainment. Anyone who thinks it's more than that, is full of shit ,and, most likely, doesn't 'walk the talk' either.

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on May 31, 2012, 06:40:19 PM
Social psychologists and journalists like New York Times columnist David Brooks argue that the way our generation uses social media sites reveals a level of self-promotion not found among previous generations.
They say Generation Y has turned into Generation Me. Apparently our egoism is just a click away.

I'm probably wrong but I was under the assumption that "Generation Me" was more of a positive thing (although there are negative aspects like narcissism and less human social interaction), not necessarily pertaining to big heads and big egos. Rather it is a generation being "more assertive, confident and entitled", who have big dreams that they try to attain. But most importantly it means that the generation is more self-reliant than ever as opposed to "Generation We". But like I said I could be wrong, I never looked into the idea deeply enough to have a firm opinion about it.

So since we are talking about "social factors" there was a generation term I read on a forum, possibly here, that I liked and found to be the most on target. I believe it was "Generation Echo" (not the Echo-Boom Generation) or something similar. We copy everything, from our fashion, to music, mysticism/religion, even political ideas all borrowed, or echoed, from the 70's, 80's and 90's and even further back, and don't really have our own culture outside of the technology (Net Generation, Generation 9/11, etc) we have developed and made use of. Whatever the name I think it is the most appropriate title out of all the SH generational theory names being tossed around.

Quote from: RyanWreck on June 06, 2012, 11:53:47 PMSo since we are talking about "social factors" there was a generation term I read on a forum, possibly here, that I liked and found to be the most on target. I believe it was "Generation Echo" (not the Echo-Boom Generation) or something similar. We copy everything, from our fashion, to music, mysticism/religion, even political ideas all borrowed, or echoed, from the 70's, 80's and 90's and even further back, and don't really have our own culture outside of the technology (Net Generation, Generation 9/11, etc) we have developed and made use of. Whatever the name I think it is the most appropriate title out of all the SH generational theory names being tossed around.

How old are you? I'm asking because you refer to "us, we" etc. and the culture you describe is something I heavily associate with people around my age, 20-25.

This "echo effect" is not very strange considering how information has accelerated with the internet, file sharing etc. Today it's pretty easy for people who are interested to get into any subculture, genre etc., if you have basic starting knowledge it's just a matter of reading some Wikipedia articles, downloading the essentials, visiting the right forums etc. Reading reviews and forums one learns what the classic works are, why they are good, what qualities to look for in a work etc., and a lot of things are pretty easily available to order or download. This is probably how it's always worked, but much slower and through zines, mail contact and such I guess... Sure, you can't "fake" any deeper knowledge just by Googling, much less the personal taste, passion and reflection, but the threshold to the basic level of knowledge is not exactly on the level of "underground catalogs reminiscent of mail order porno" or something like that...
I think in this climate, the social interaction might not be about promoting oneself but really leaving the "me" and becoming part of a collective. If anyone can wear the right outfit, have the right albums and so forth, it's the ones who actually put in some energy who count, ie the ones who make music, correspond with other people in the scene, release stuff, or just go to the gigs (though we also have the crowd who sit and play with their phones wile the artist is performing, but still).

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 05, 2012, 10:34:39 PM
and he feels that there are not enough "walk the talk" folks in the US Power Electronics scene

Enter the scene police. This sounds like there are people who want to turn PE into punk.

Quote from: hsv on June 07, 2012, 12:32:12 AM
How old are you? I'm asking because you refer to "us, we" etc. and the culture you describe is something I heavily associate with people around my age, 20-25.

I'm 28, and yea I associate it with people born roughly from about 1982-1992, making that 20-30 year old's although some youngsters in their late teens may fit into this category as well.

QuoteThis "echo effect" is not very strange considering how information has accelerated with the internet, file sharing etc. Today it's pretty easy for people who are interested to get into any subculture, genre etc., if you have basic starting knowledge it's just a matter of reading some Wikipedia articles, downloading the essentials, visiting the right forums etc. Reading reviews and forums one learns what the classic works are, why they are good, what qualities to look for in a work etc., and a lot of things are pretty easily available to order or download.

Although it is a bit unrelated to what you are saying I think this fits with a lot of things, the access we have and the way we can now see things all over the world, investigate cultures, music genres, whatever simply with the click of a mouse or turning on the TV. You hear a lot of people now-a-days saying that there are things happening in the last 10 years that show that our generation is destroying the world, is filled with psychos and violence and some idiots proclaim that we are going to contribute to the end of the world and the fall of humanity. What people don't understand is that this shit has been happening forever, and probably worse back in the old days than it is now (from Caligula to the Luftwaffe, Visigoths, the World Wars, 9/11 to gay porn stars eating and fucking dead bodies, and everything in between) the only difference is that we get to view it all. There is no evidence to support that the moral condition of man is any worse now than in any other generation. The one thing that is certain is that the world is a smaller place because of technology. The shit that was once able to hide are exposed and broadcast around the world on the news and on the internet. Shit is exposed. The base, unbalanced madness, moral problems, "evil", whatever you wish to call it that inform what our generation does and becomes is as old as time and every generation has to deal with it. In less technological times the religious fanatics were running around with swords cutting heads off, now they have the means to hijack planes and fly them into buildings. Under the skin there is really nothing making our generation any more worse off than any before us.

Quote from: theotherjohn on June 06, 2012, 11:19:05 PM

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 06, 2012, 09:18:08 PM
Power Electronics/Harsh Noise/Industrial is just another genre of musical entertainment. Anyone who thinks it's more than that, is full of shit ,and, most likely, doesn't 'walk the talk' either.

WOAH, HOLD ON A MINUTE

You mean to tell me that these music genres and the SI forum ISN'T a front for rapists, racists, killers and sadists?? That listening to certain sound frequencies DOESN'T necessarily incline or excuse you to act out your wildest psycho-sexual or violent pleasures?? GODDAMN IT!

+

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 07, 2012, 01:24:01 AM

Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 05, 2012, 10:34:39 PM
and he feels that there are not enough "walk the talk" folks in the US Power Electronics scene

Enter the scene police. This sounds like there are people who want to turn PE into punk.

The joke and the comments reveals the nature of problem of discussion. Who's talk we should be walking?
As long as the overall impression is, that NIT lives his pe dreams, I'm guessing people expect that to be substance of pe. And that anyone doing the walk, should follow this assumption?

While I look from european perspective, I don't see the whole negro "keep it real" thing going on, what ALWAYS, without exception, comes as conclusion on american dominated boards (say Noisefanatics).

Quite big profile examples: If Con-Dom yells "I AM A FAMILY MAN" or GENOCIDE ORGAN yells "We like to hunt, we are soldiers of dog"...  We can take the surface level of words or seek for what text meant?

What is the "walk the talk" in moment when you are NOT talking about yourself or you are NOT meaning to celebrate serial killers. If you talk about understanding human conditions, understanding power structures of society, observing dysfunction of human brain, etc etc. etc. How does it change. What walk the talk would mean? Perhaps: read more? hah!

Like I said, someones interest in serial killer or rapist may not be "I want to be one". The walk that needs to be done, is entirely different path than for guy who's conclusion was and impression he tries to give is being one. I don't see much of those in PE. 
If hypothetical "I" becomes a perspective seen in text, I don't see it necessarily more than "technical choice" of writing. Content itself may suggest are we talking of artistic choice or something else.

Not that anyone cares, nor should they, but my personal opinion is that in the end PE is like every other genre of music (and most forms of art in general)... ever. People write lyrics about shit that they think about, or subjects which fascinate them, not necessarily what they do in their day to day lives (although some do). Not all country singers own a tractor and wake up a 5am to work on the farm, I'm sure Hector Berlioz and Franz Liszt didn't really worship Satan, not all Rappers sell crack or have gotten shot, Skrewdriver didn't hang black men, Lord Byron wasn't trying to bring about Armageddon, etc, ad naseum. I think people who are looking at lyrics and content in such a narrow and specific way might not be seeing the whole picture, and I don't see why there should be a problem separating a performer or artist from his subject.

I think it is better when artists is separated from art in case when he/she is hardly interesting. Only thinking we should be interested in them simply because they are "artists".
We can see this in just about every field of "youthful creation".

for example:

Photographers, (perhaps most predominantly female?) photographing themselves. As if countless images of you and possibly your friends hanging out in front of camera is great expression of art?

Alternative comics, where some protagonists did amazing autobiographical works, but changed the current for all mr. & miss nobodies make comics about their non-existing lives. We should be interested in them, because they feel they are real and special people, not some "imaginary" stories.  And when gates were opened, that you didn't need to have story, you didn't need to have idea, just tell what you've been doing.
I guess it wasn't enough, since you still need to do a bit more than just publish a sketchbook of half finished no-good doodles. And they should be interesting because... you did it?

Then we can extend these routes to noise in form of questions: Do we need "generation me" fixations about themselves and their mundane lives to pollute our consciousness? Do we need to search through "sketchbooks of noise", hoping something relevant and meaningful, beyond couple random good ideas could be found?
Reply appears to be that someone needs them. I suppose there is an audience for confessional diary where someone opens his heart about misfortunes of his life, perhaps in form of incoherent audio diary, but this is not the "noise" or "pe" I personally can connect to. I look for bigger things than single little man.

Quote from: RyanWreck on June 06, 2012, 11:53:47 PMI'm probably wrong but I was under the assumption that "Generation Me" was more of a positive thing (although there are negative aspects like narcissism and less human social interaction), not necessarily pertaining to big heads and big egos. Rather it is a generation being "more assertive, confident and entitled", who have big dreams that they try to attain. But most importantly it means that the generation is more self-reliant than ever as opposed to "Generation We". But like I said I could be wrong, I never looked into the idea deeply enough to have a firm opinion about it.

Actually, they're less independent.   For example, employers notice that once they're finished with a task, they have a problem understanding what the next step is, so they stop until they're told exactly what to do next.  It isn't out of laziness.  They're known to be good workers, but they also need to have their hand held at every step.  It places undue stress on the system because they're so dependent upon oversight.  It's one of the consequences of being praised for everything they do.  Everyone gets a trophy.  Everyone gets a ribbon.  Even if they don't win or set themselves apart or excel at anything.  The result is that they don't have to excel at anything to be praised.  It's has a homogenizing effect.  It takes conformity to a new level.

Quote from: theotherjohn on June 07, 2012, 02:48:17 PM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 07, 2012, 08:50:09 AM
While I look from european perspective, I don't see the whole negro "keep it real" thing going on, what ALWAYS, without exception, comes as conclusion on american dominated boards (say Noisefanatics).

I realise it's simply provocation on your side, but for me your off-hand "negro" comments don't really fit into the "keeping it real" problem in popular culture. I can't speak for black culture myself (and I certainly don't think you can either) but I wouldn't limit identity crisis and fitting in with a crowd/scene/stereotype to a specific race, gender or location.

But in context of the sentence - it is always, and without exception, a phenomena found in american noise board(s) where PE and Hip Hop (which I consider predominantly negro culture) are mentioned with similarities.
While someone expects the "street cred" similar to hip hop, fails to see that as far as I can see, industrial/post-industrial of any kind had the same motivation or characteristics?
We can't deny the influence of location or culture. It would be simply foolish.

Seems to me that too many (not saying all or most!) modern PE fans/artists have the opposite approach to 'keeping it real' - ie they talk the talk about how they are just using extreme imagery and ideas as a comment on society, a provocation, an apolitical exploration of the aesthetics or whatever other justification, but then when they start talking about their actual politics and opinions it turns out they really ARE racist/bigoted in a mundane and, in the context of their chosen genre of PE, disappointingly un-self-aware unexamined way.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 07, 2012, 03:24:22 PM
While someone expects the "street cred" similar to hip hop, fails to see that as far as I can see, industrial/post-industrial of any kind had the same motivation or characteristics?

Certainly the shock tactics in the pre-bling era of the early 90s had great similarities to classic PE in my eyes. Geto Boys 'Mind of a Lunatic' is mentioned in comparison to Whitehouse a couple of times in 'Still Going Strong' (Impulse Publications, 1993)  - bearing in mind that the 80s hip-hop pioneers such as Afrika Bambaataa were entirely aware of people like TG and influenced by them, I don't think it's too unlikely that some self-consciously 'extreme' rappers will have been made aware of the likes of Come Org. And I know that William Bennett was influenced back in turn from the early 90s onwards.

Quote from: Cementimental on June 07, 2012, 05:06:48 PM
Seems to me that too many (not saying all or most!) modern PE fans/artists have the opposite approach to 'keeping it real' - ie they talk the talk about how they are just using extreme imagery and ideas as a comment on society, a provocation, an apolitical exploration of the aesthetics or whatever other justification, but then when they start talking about their actual politics and opinions it turns out they really ARE racist/bigoted in a mundane and, in the context of their chosen genre of PE, disappointingly un-self-aware unexamined way.

If there is too many, do you have any examples?
I certainly am not apolitical nor my "bigotry" should be surprise to anyone? This is most certainly covered in my own work, but again, it's not about me as person, but about those ideas.

Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on June 07, 2012, 06:44:54 PM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 07, 2012, 03:24:22 PM
While someone expects the "street cred" similar to hip hop, fails to see that as far as I can see, industrial/post-industrial of any kind had the same motivation or characteristics?

Certainly the shock tactics in the pre-bling era of the early 90s had great similarities to classic PE in my eyes. Geto Boys 'Mind of a Lunatic' is mentioned in comparison to Whitehouse a couple of times in 'Still Going Strong' (Impulse Publications, 1993)  - bearing in mind that the 80s hip-hop pioneers such as Afrika Bambaataa were entirely aware of people like TG and influenced by them, I don't think it's too unlikely that some self-consciously 'extreme' rappers will have been made aware of the likes of Come Org.

Similarity as shock tactics, to me is hardly relevant. So is the "someone talks over electronic sound". We could compare to many things. Many music styles, poetry, movies, performance arts etc. The interest in "extremes" and provocation is so big part of popular culture, not to mention culture overall - it's all sex, death, violence, men enslaving women etc since dawn on mankind.

My point has been and still remains: the introduction of mundane (read: common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative) person as key element of noise. When we look into hip hop, be it true or false representation - am I wrong or it's most of all "me and boys" type of approach. Appearing public, in photos, in promotion as themselves, promoting themselves as persons, doing lyrics in style of

"The police wanna see me in an early grave
But I ain't trippin on em muthafuckin pearly gates
Ways to get a nigga 'fore he get me
Always keep my 'stola with me
Never beg for my life if they muthafuckin hit me"

The common, ordinary, banal, unimaginative life of some guy, doesn't make me interested for the guy himself. I couldn't care less about him as person. His face, his name, his posse, etc.

While perhaps slightly different:

"Right To Kill :
That's yours
That body's yours
Beat it
Fuck it
Dominate, mutilate, strangulate
Rape and bugger it
Kill it
Eat it
It's your right to kill
It's your nature
The ultimate pleasure
Kill! Kill! Kill!
It's your fucking right to kill
It's your fucking nature
Kill! Kill! Kill!
It's my right to kill!"

Especially at the time, what did WB present about himself? Does the song talk about WB as person? He does say "it's my right to kill", yet it comes out as ideology (perhaps too strong word, though) presented from general perspective, rather than story about his random misbehavior in contemporary society? He is not ego boosting stories of him and his posse making mess.

To me it appears significant difference, where we really do not know, nor do we care much, about what guy, how he looks like, what he does in his daily life. We would care if his recording is good and if it provides inspiring content. Having noise recording with the guy talking about his uninteresting life can be utmost let down.

NIT, Mentors, GG Allin or Geto Boys could be the Jerry Springer show. Perhaps sometimes some unadulterated grotesque fun. But I doubt majority goes to same category?

I think the question about media representation is fairly interesting, yet that's beyond artists control (in some ways). But it's not beyond artists control if he decides to sing about banal himself, with his face in the cover. You know, compilation of vegetarian noise. "Oh, Tim is vegan! Cool". Huh!? I consider the great possibility that my pathological hatred for such things as reality tv or people who offer nothing but try to get their face/name in public, is reason why I don't "get" why that could be interesting. I would put animal rights (or animal bizarre! hah) compilation to my cd player anytime over projects compiled over idea of gathering together social group based on peoples diet.  As I would rather listen to material what evokes the feeling of historical transgressive moment, than Average Joe's sob story of lost girlfriend.  The basic urge may be caused by exactly same things - but it manifests in entirely different light - depending what person is after. Seeking fame and recognition for himself or his ideas.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 07, 2012, 07:44:14 PM
My point has been and still remains: the introduction of mundane (read: common; ordinary; banal; unimaginative) person as key element of noise. When we look into hip hop, be it true or false representation - am I wrong or it's most of all "me and boys" type of approach. Appearing public, in photos, in promotion as themselves, promoting themselves as persons, doing lyrics in style of

"The police wanna see me in an early grave
But I ain't trippin on em muthafuckin pearly gates
Ways to get a nigga 'fore he get me
Always keep my 'stola with me
Never beg for my life if they muthafuckin hit me"

The common, ordinary, banal, unimaginative life of some guy, doesn't make me interested for the guy himself. I couldn't care less about him as person. His face, his name, his posse, etc.

A similar thing has happened in hip-hop to what you describe as the introduction of the mundane or 'authentic' in noise. So many of the early gangsta rappers were actually from well-educated middle-class backgrounds, they might have had distant cousins in the projects but they were the sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers. The lyrics back then were as crazed and over the top as 'Right To Kill':


"Lookin through her window, now my body is warm
She's naked, and I'm a peepin tom
Her body's beautiful, so I'm thinkin rape
Shouldn't have had her curtains open, so that's her fate
Leavin out her house, grabbed the bitch by her mouth
Drug her back in, slammed her down on the couch
Whipped out my knife, said, "if you scream, I'm cuttin"
Opened her legs and commenced the fuckin
She begged me not to kill her, I gave her a rose
Then slit her throat, and watched her shake till her eyes closed
Had sex with the corpse before I left her
And drew my name on the wall like helter skelter
Run for shelter never crossed my mind
I had a gauge, a grenade, and even a nine
Dial 911 for the bitch
But the cops ain't shit when they're fuckin with a lunatic"

No-one can possibly take that as a serious account of Bushwick Bill's everyday life: it's provocation. And not common, banal, ordinary or unimaginative in any way. Not 'ego boosting stories of him and his posse' because it is clearly fiction, just like many of Whitehouse, Sutcliffe Jugend and Con-Dom's texts.

Con-Dom is a family man!

What song does he use that line in?

Family Man (Road to total freedom 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoS-c60MvIU

As great example related to what I wrote above - Road To Total Freedom original version. Check All In Good Faith. It is written from perspective of "I", yet I have hard time thinking it would be person behind Con-Dom talking about his own urges and own actions, but focusing on scenario of control/domination within strict religious culture.
It immediately provokes visions of lets say in Finland - vanhoillislestadiolaiset (Laestadian Lutheran Church). Could be target of observation, although track most likely doesn't address that directly. Just been a lot in news during last years due all sorts of control/domination/abuse/etc. During last couple of weeks listened multiple interviews from radio from now grown up victims.

Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on June 07, 2012, 08:03:52 PM
A similar thing has happened in hip-hop to what you describe as the introduction of the mundane or 'authentic' in noise. So many of the early gangsta rappers were actually from well-educated middle-class backgrounds, they might have had distant cousins in the projects but they were the sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers. The lyrics back then were as crazed and over the top as 'Right To Kill':

No-one can possibly take that as a serious account of Bushwick Bill's everyday life: it's provocation. And not common, banal, ordinary or unimaginative in any way. Not 'ego boosting stories of him and his posse' because it is clearly fiction, just like many of Whitehouse, Sutcliffe Jugend and Con-Dom's texts.

I agree, but as said, this approach is not the most typical characteristic of genre, is it? We know it from very different type. I know Geto Boys well, and I guess it might not be entirely surprising that I do have pile of most vile gansta rap (including GB) - the old classics from 80's early 90's and few subcultural extremes of later days a'la Necro - which is like death metal/gore grind version of hip hop. You know, I'm just human being, tempted by the devils of world! :D

Still - I consider the difference of "De Sade" vs. "Ghetto Booty Slappers". Just like mentioned before. I consider difference of The Sun vs. ____ ..well insert basically anything of your choice but trash.

I know this introduction of "mundane" / "banal" person infiltrates every "creative" aspect of human culture and no surprise hip hop (and noise!) as well. While west goes towards "generation me" direction, I personally hope to reject concepts such as individuality (as ideology) and equality. Repulsion towards the above mentioned phenomena is result of that.

Provocation IS Entertainment and the Music can be easily changed with the same Lyrics. P:E is throught that also just Entertainment for the Listeners. On the other Side, everything can be Provocating. Even a Picture with some Flowers can be Provocate, if the Contex fits. If Raping Images are Common, nobody would be provocated from it.

The Intention is the Key. For which Reason is the Provocation? A Song like "Living like a Prayer" from Madonna were Procovating in this Times and in the USA, in other Countries nobody pays Attention of the Provocation or the Intention itself after all. Nobody cares about it, its just a Pop Song. Or the Pop Song "I Don't Like Mondays". I heard it Yesterday in the Radio as normal pop Song. The Message is not easy cheesy Pop Music, but its played at this. Other Example is German Right Winged Band Landser. This Band is absolute Popular...Worldwide and in nearly every Music Scene. The People who should be Provocated by the Songs are the Listeners now. Paradox Contex or just use as Entertainment?

And HipHop/Rap have a really wide Variation, the Commercial Chart Music doesn't represent a Scene after all (or is Industrial now Music like Combichrist)

Mikko my previous post wasn't directed at you but rather the kind of mostly US based 'reality'-seeking PE people you're complaining about too. But for me it seems like they come from a more black metal "evil" mindset/aesthetic; it seems a bit weird to say that hiphop "keepin it real" culture influences this kind of attitude since the "real" that they approve of, and are disappointed if they learn isn't "sincere", is usually racism or neo-naziism etc...

Quote from: Cementimental on June 07, 2012, 09:59:33 PM
Mikko my previous post wasn't directed at you but rather the kind of mostly US based 'reality'-seeking PE people you're complaining about too. But for me it seems like they come from a more black metal "evil" mindset/aesthetic; it seems a bit weird to say that hiphop "keepin it real" culture influences this kind of attitude since the "real" that they approve of, and are disappointed if they learn isn't "sincere", is usually racism or neo-naziism etc...

I didn't think it was directed to me, but I simply used it as example as reference. Could have used many others who I know better. But examples would be nice. Shouldn't be too touchy people...? There is no (neo-)nazism in noise beyond very very very few isolated cases, who most often approach it with fetishistic form.

Hip Hop keeps coming up since it's what comes up in american forums quite often. One could also say culture in general - where everything is affected by this. I think it comes out differently in hip hop - perhaps in most exaggerated form.

Quote from: SILVUM on June 07, 2012, 10:48:25 PM
I understand Mikko's point that the exploration of a more complex and invasive issue of world view and societal re-alignment is vastly more interesting than day to day self glorification. 

That said, when focus on the self can be presented as either a path towards investigating more universal issues, or used in the formulation of new myths, then I'm interested in that.  Self focus in the absolute as a circuit towards something more than the day to day is something fascinating, but you can easily tell when it's done lazily, or due to a lack of ideas, and a lot of the noise/pe/whatever I see reeks of inauthenticity oddly enough by its own claim of authenticity.

My vague point being that personal / self glorification, is not always a negative, though if the person is boring, and most are, there's not going to be anything there.

And yes, surrounding culture and land have an intense programming power that people can deny all they want, it will always be there.

Within underground, there can be the baggage of unhealthy ego. People do acknowledge they are worth nothing in bigger perspective. This existential trouble might give them ideas to simply decide otherwise. Some things are not simply matters of decision, but requires action or process. But they might refuse to choose latter since it might require something. Which automatically sets them apart from potentially interesting cases.

It would be foolish to deny race, nation and location, when big part of the identity may be covered by (acceptance or rejection of) something like american dream (-> a set of ideals in which freedom includes the opportunity for prosperity and success, and possibility to an upward social mobility) or so called Russian Mentality. It appears to be utterly stressful for modern people that they can't be everything and that they are something and it isn't all matter of simply saying so. For example, I can never fully understand what would be so neat to be in gang that protects some shitty block in shitty town, barely surviving. If block gets big enough and "gang" big enough, I can suddenly see the point very easily. Which for someone appears utterly bizarre vision.

One could look for example popularity of for example Church Of Satan. Why it appealed so much more to America (metal scene, industrial scene,..) while in many parts of europe this hedonistic and (mundane) individual worshipping approach was accepted by some, but quite often matter of laugh, ridicule and rejection?

When someone gives idea worship of mundane ego being possible, some men appear to think as if it mean that you should take any ego, any person and worship that and revolve around little piece of dogshit. While some others would realize it would be matter of things only found by destruction of mundane/banal element and aim further.

This same scenario happens all around culture, yet maybe I am living in illusion that noise could be different.  SINCE, there is pretty much absolutely nothing you can gain from it in traditional form (wealth, ladies, fame, groupies, mass audience..) to me it would indicate it could be only done for little more pure reasons. Focus on idea, sound and art - and eventually people may get interested IF there is substance. And even then the interest may be so small, that only with pure personal interests its worth it.

That even in very standard form, there is something metaphysical and esoteric, something ideological and spiritual. Don't look the words in horror like they'd be in any way complex or necessity of pretension & posturing. I think valid, whether it's Korpses Katatonik or... lets choose CCCC and Smell & Quim!

I'm surprised there isn't even more ego in noise/pe... eg it's kind of weird that a scene composed mainly (i wonder what percentage) of solo performing/recording artists still overwhelmingly uses 'band names' and it's so rare for the person to just use their actual name.

Quote from: Cementimental on June 08, 2012, 12:18:41 PM
I'm surprised there isn't even more ego in noise/pe... .

So we reached a critical point in that discussion. Question is: why do PE/noise/industrial artists use such topics and noise as music tool? Underground fashion / trends? Or maybe something what is more, more true and unique? I am affraid (reading even if posts of some artists here) this is (unfortunately) kind of underground fashion. Somebody tells that everywhere are "good" and "bad", "true" and "false" artists.... Anyway, this is a good reason to know other artists via only their art, not their real life and claimed views.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 08, 2012, 12:42:46 PM
Somebody tells that everywhere are "good" and "bad", "true" and "false" artists.... Anyway, this is a good reason to know other artists via only their art, not their real life and claimed views.

This is the nature of art. Almost every direction of art has rejected the opposite, even declared (cultural) war. Dada, futurism, punk, rock'n'roll, whatever. If someone has problem accepting critical evaluation or even fact that there exists oppositions in moment of cultural collision of different interests - I find it lifeless apathy.

I'm always interested in "claimed views", but not really the "real life". Lets say what would be Hermann Nitsch interview in art journal or lifestyle magazine? First one probably focusing on his output and views, latter focusing on what he eats, where he shops, what kind of house he lives in, hah... The latter direction I find matter that infiltrates slowly everything and banalizes the mythical.

For russian mentality... perhaps not right topic to go further, but maybe this article of Pravda will be something..  I'm sure russian culture, history and art could be interest of many. I would say the russian noise & industrial is most definitely different even in times of borderless communication. Perhaps thanks to effects of cultural identity.
http://english.pravda.ru/news/russia/26-03-2002/36195-0/

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 08, 2012, 08:50:01 PM
I remember reading Peter Sotos' interview in Apocalypse Culture & thought it was fucking brutal and amazing. I also thought he was full of shit. Still think the same way about him.

Yes, as everybody here and there, you HAVE right to your opinion. It seems this forum isn't place where it could be changed. Frankly speaking, I would be more interested in WHY you think that he was full of shit than your easy manifest of your preferences.

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 08, 2012, 08:50:01 PM
What's the Russian Mentality?

Read some books or poems (f.e. Lev Tolstoj, Vladimir Vysotskii or Bulat Okudjava). Too much to write in this place.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 08, 2012, 09:23:53 PM

This is the nature of art. Almost every direction of art has rejected the opposite, even declared (cultural) war. Dada, futurism, punk, rock'n'roll, whatever. If someone has problem accepting critical evaluation or even fact that there exists oppositions in moment of cultural collision of different interests - I find it lifeless apathy.

I have no problem with accepting evaluation or oppositions. I have problem with some underground artists' hypocrisy.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 08, 2012, 09:23:53 PM
I'm always interested in "claimed views", but not really the "real life". Lets say what would be Hermann Nitsch interview in art journal or lifestyle magazine? First one probably focusing on his output and views, latter focusing on what he eats, where he shops, what kind of house he lives in, hah... The latter direction I find matter that infiltrates slowly everything and banalizes the mythical.

Artists' ordinary life is the last thing in which I could be interested. I meant more about their views on life, art and people/society etc.

No one has a right to their opinion & everyone is full of shit.

"Uncertainty and Fatalism" is what I figured for Russian mentality. They never look like a happy bunch of campers.

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 08, 2012, 10:22:39 PM
No one has a right to their opinion & everyone is full of shit.

So, probably somebody from outside could think that you wanted to be negative provocateur, but not anybody from here. Your "provocation" is very poor.

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 08, 2012, 10:22:39 PM
They never look like a happy bunch of campers.

Maybe, I don't know too many Russians, but as far as I know, many Russians are different as you mentioned. Do you like using stereotypes ?

Isn't "russian mentality" by default the stereotype most obvious nature?
See link of the russian study of russian mentality and its changes.
If someone doesn't fit the stereotype in every minor detail, it doesn't mean they wouldn't be affected by it and exists within range.
I certainly may not represent all stereotypes of Finn, yet, certainly can be grouped together.

Rejection of stereotype and group mentality is perhaps one of most clear indicators of being stereotype and member of herd in this time of world.

I think most people from here know that I just have a lousy sense of humor (and that I'm full of shit). And yes, I like stereotypes.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 08, 2012, 10:47:45 PM
Isn't "russian mentality" by default the stereotype most obvious nature?
See link of the russian study of russian mentality and its changes.
If someone doesn't fit the stereotype in every minor detail, it doesn't mean they wouldn't be affected by it and exists within range.
I certainly may not represent all stereotypes of Finn, yet, certainly can be grouped together.

Rejection of stereotype and group mentality is perhaps one of most clear indicators of being stereotype and member of herd in this time of world.

Maybe so, maybe not. For me this is very relative, as the nature of stereotype. For example, stereotype of Germans in Poland is different than in Czech Republic or in Austria. The same with Poles or Russians. So, here isn't important what is true (how is real mentality) but who and from where looks at us. Stereotypes tell more about their authors than aim of stereotypes.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 08, 2012, 09:23:53 PMFor russian mentality...

I thought you meant this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus).

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on June 08, 2012, 10:22:39 PM
"Uncertainty and Fatalism" is what I figured for Russian mentality. They never look like a happy bunch of campers.

There's a hell of a lot of smilling happy Russian people the last hour :)

In this matter I feel we can all only truly speak of subject matter that we want to be conveyed, if we actually lived it, I seriously doubt we would even care about music period, or be making a front about it. I can say however that certain projects that touch on matters of race, ideology, gender, and religion are the only things in grasp anyone could really be truthful about. Other categories such as government pro's and con's are only others I can think of at the moment. Most true gangsta hip hop is only stories that were once done before turning over to hip hop, but I am sure in the underground, they may be a few that actually live the lifestyle. Is it really important to actually live the lifestyle to be truly appreciated in genres of noise and power electronics? I feel if the music is good, I don't give a shit if you live the life or not. Preferably I think I would rather listen to a good story teller.   

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 09, 2012, 01:19:32 AM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 08, 2012, 09:23:53 PMFor russian mentality...

I thought you meant this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus).

Not that. I guess russian mentality - as seen by russians themselves too - is different from the stereotype. I'm fully aware of the relativity what ImpulsyStetoskopu says, but there is a thin line of stereotype and prejudice. If we would talk about what kind of prejudice Finns have against Russians, result would produce different that what prejudices Americans have against Russians. But when we look the "Russian Mentality" what is present in culture, art, characteristics they studied and accepted,  changes in it among generations, etc. we see stereotype can exists. If it's construction enforced by culture, it hardly matters what is the cause of it being true and can it be changed.
What are the stereotypes of man or what are the prejudices women may have against men, are maybe different, but these traits are clear and visible to recognize what would be masculine and feminine cultural elements. We can try to destroy race, nation, gender and all "constructions", yet the life will prevail over politically correct suffocation.

Quote from: enmity on June 09, 2012, 04:54:00 AM
In this matter I feel we can all only truly speak of subject matter that we want to be conveyed, if we actually lived it, I seriously doubt we would even care about music period, or be making a front about it.

Could you write about death without seeing a lot of death or ultimately seeking to die yourself (a'la Atrax Morgue)?
I think only actual thing that matter is the the passion and belief. Which I consider lacking. You can look at most of underground music, a lot of political movements, a lot of... basically everything, and illusions have crashed and the faith to really stand for something is most often gone. When was last time you heard relevant new punk recording with actual substance in it? I went to see documentary of contemporary Finnish punk, and there was interview with singer of band who explained that he is so pissed off about injustice and people not accepting each other - not in world in general, but within scene. He said it couple times and said he also does care little bit about injustice in the world, but more strongly he feels about the scene. I was so amazed.
If the existing reality is, that nothing matters, why even try, lets update our facebook with announcement of new soundcloud rehearsal sample, who could it posses any kind passion similar to punk in its time of true rebellion, ideology and honest belief of possibilities.
This postmodern disbelief on anything bigger than man has destroyed pretty much every form of underground music, and made "artists" turn only into themselves, into modern emo boys.

Quote from: HongKongGoolagong on May 21, 2012, 09:13:23 PM
I thought the drownedinsound discussion was excellent because it makes something which is very much becoming either commodified as art or turned into a safe hobbyist private club briefly appear provocative and dangerous again.

This is from another topic - and while I slightly disagree about hobbyist private club being bad in any way, I admit it is related to this change of climate / social factor topic in slightly unpleasant way. Where the social factors of selling, promoting, attention, "xxx like this", and all those appear to get more focus than release itself. When hobbyist club is focused on idea of having for example batch of tapes out, I'm quite sure there is a compromises of some level. I'm quite sure there is art turned into production line of commodities.
Not long ago we saw announcement of release, which was being available on pre-order in moment when some artist involved had not even made any music for it. There was idea of packaging, idea of format, idea of who will be in, limitation to sell out in advance, price and possibility to paypal your funds in right now. But the actual substance, being noise itself, wasn't yet done. Of course not all is this bad, but what does this order of making things tell? Labels/artists supplying product to buy, making noise on demand, rather than somewhat isolated passionate artists making what he believes in - and eventually get it out in way or another?

So much is focused on ideas of possibility of re-selling, value, collectibility, etc. that actual material appears to lose its meaning. And in the end, it would be all social and financial factors, where noise is more of footnote in whole process? The old PE was hardly ever "limited edition" collector stuff if it was tapes. I guess Whitehouse still sells their live actions, Con-Dom still manufactures his tapes from mid 80's etc.  Many of those who are still around from old league, used to run labels in different ways. I wouldn't want to stress so much more of "american" influence, yet just take a look when and how the whole "ltd 30 copies C-__" type of culture took over? The old nasty noise, the old PE scene it's all pretty much C-45 to C-60 relevant tape albums sold for regular price as long as demand is there (or large pressing anyways). Any label from Sound of Pig to Deadline to MSNP to Nihilistic to Zero Cabal to Slaughter prod to..
Change in climate of noise shifted focus on something else, and it certainly is new american idea. In favor of business operation. It needs to be easy for label, easy for artist, easy for consumer. If it will be a task, if it will a pain in the ass, if it will be sacrifice of some sort - without true faith/passion you ain't going to do it. And pure mathematics would indicate direction (judged from this perspective) has been downfall.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 09, 2012, 09:25:24 AM
But when we look the "Russian Mentality" what is present in culture, art, characteristics they studied and accepted,  changes in it among generations, etc. we see stereotype can exists. If it's construction enforced by culture, it hardly matters what is the cause of it being true and can it be changed.
What are the stereotypes of man or what are the prejudices women may have against men, are maybe different, but these traits are clear and visible to recognize what would be masculine and feminine cultural elements. We can try to destroy race, nation, gender and all "constructions", yet the life will prevail over politically correct suffocation.

I could understand so called "nation mentality" if that nation was homogeneous, like Poland, for example. Russia isn't homogeneous. Russians are different closer to Finnish border, and very big different in Asian republics. Of course, I can imagine your direct of thinking, but your opinions have high level of generalization, to not say: mistake. I consider so called "Russian Mentality" rather as kind of isolation which created unique cultural independence not being neither part of European (Western) society nor Asian culture. This core of mentality is very interesting for me, probably due to my efforts to make this same isolation.

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 09, 2012, 05:38:19 PM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 09, 2012, 09:25:24 AM
But when we look the "Russian Mentality" what is present in culture, art, characteristics they studied and accepted,  changes in it among generations, etc. we see stereotype can exists. If it's construction enforced by culture, it hardly matters what is the cause of it being true and can it be changed.
What are the stereotypes of man or what are the prejudices women may have against men, are maybe different, but these traits are clear and visible to recognize what would be masculine and feminine cultural elements. We can try to destroy race, nation, gender and all "constructions", yet the life will prevail over politically correct suffocation.

I could understand so called "nation mentality" if that nation was homogeneous, like Poland, for example. Russia isn't homogeneous. Russians are different closer to Finnish border, and very big different in Asian republics. Of course, I can imagine your direct of thinking, but your opinions have high level of generalization, to not say: mistake. I consider so called "Russian Mentality" rather as kind of isolation which created unique cultural independence not being neither part of European (Western) society nor Asian culture. This core of mentality is very interesting for me, probably due to my efforts to make this same isolation.

Easier said, depends on the Land and the Economy where they life? Think this fits. The Mentality can change just some Hundret Kilometers away to something Different, when the Land/Nature changes with it.

Quote from: Goat93 on June 09, 2012, 06:54:54 PM
Easier said, depends on the Land and the Economy where they life? Think this fits.

We are talking about "Russian Mentality". Russians closer Finnish border have the same (or very simillar) state of economy to Russians from the Asian part of Russia. This complicated case has something more than economical factor.

QuoteThe Russian people (Russian: русские, russkiye) are an East Slavic ethnic group native to Russia, speaking the Russian language and primarily living in Russia and neighboring countries.
The English term Russians is also used to refer to the citizens of Russia, regardless of their ethnicity

With "russians", I didn't mean who ever happens to live in borders of state with same name of some specific time. Perhaps this is the sign of cultural difference already. What means to say Russkiey or Russian. Countries with no ethnic uniformity of any kind, couldn't probably get saying "Russians" could actually mean original ethnic group and their native culture rather than some artificial state or "economy-area" with whoever happens to be there.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2012, 10:09:24 AM
With "russians", I didn't mean who ever happens to live in borders of state with same name of some specific time. Perhaps this is the sign of cultural difference already. What means to say Russkiey or Russian. Countries with no ethnic uniformity of any kind, couldn't probably get saying "Russians" could actually mean original ethnic group and their native culture rather than some artificial state or "economy-area" with whoever happens to be there.

This doesn't work. Origin Russians have conquered other nations since over 1000 years. Most of them didn't get back their independence. Who is a a true Russian now? You aren't able to prove it, and I don't say about Caucasian/Chechnya examples. I say, for example about origin residents from Murmansk and Yakutsk or Khabarovsk. There are cultural/mentality differences between them. Besides, when you say about "American Mentality", you think only about Europeans, or Indians, Afro-Americans, Mexicans too?

You don't have to believe me. We would not have the globally known and accepted term "russian mentality" in our languages, if it was some imaginary prejudice I simply made up.

You can't deny existence of Russian culture, by russian people. You can't deny the nation having it's own identity and self image it accepts and lives within. You can't deny even the genetic uniformity which is much more than lets say in America. Check out the link provided earlier or read books on subject matter or talk with russians. Exceptions don't remove the rule. They underline it's existence. Obviously culture is not total vacuum. Russians have conquered AND they have been conquered during the years. It means very little in this discussion when we talk about mass not individual person.

But I guess we should wait someone from Russia to say something, hah...

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2012, 10:50:30 AM
You don't have to believe me. We would not have the globally known and accepted term "russian mentality" in our languages, if it was some imaginary prejudice I simply made up.

You can't deny existence of Russian culture, by russian people. You can't deny the nation having it's own identity and self image it accepts and lives within. You can't deny even the genetic uniformity which is much more than lets say in America. Check out the link provided earlier or read books on subject matter or talk with russians. Exceptions don't remove the rule. They underline it's existence. Obviously culture is not total vacuum. Russians have conquered AND they have been conquered during the years. It means very little in this discussion when we talk about mass not individual person.

But I guess we should wait someone from Russia to say something, hah...

I don't deny anything. I read your linked essey and other works on this topic. I know that many people want to describe reality and impute its some rules. I only guess that it has high level of generalization/mistake. I could prove it using my nation, so called "Polish Mentality". Of course, there are "smart" people who say that Poles are drunken catholics, hard-working (especialy overseas), who are even contaminated by so called "homo soveticus", and many, many other things. For me this is something like horoscope, people can arrogate some hallmarks of zodiac signs for others who were born in simillar time. Bullshit. Yes, anybody can't deny that over 90% of Poles are catholics (all of them who were baptised), but why nobody doesn't write that only 5% of them read the Bible at all and regularly goes to church? This same doubts concern other countries, with Russia or USA. I know that many people would like to remain their culturaly independent and unique nation in these globalization postmodern times, where all is mixing up. Unfortunately, this is only wishful thinking.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2012, 10:50:30 AM
You can't deny existence of Russian culture, by russian people.  

This is truism. Every country has its culture. Russian culture isn't created only by origin Russian people but by all residents of conquested areas in Russia too. Besides, the most valuable works in art, from Russia or other countries, are these what don't touch typical, national/cultural  problems but what are universal for everybody in this world. For example: Tarkovsky's movies, Stravinsky's music, Kandinsky's paints or Pielewin's novels.

Russian mentality, as explained in those references, is something way beyond vodka, beyond orthodox faith, beyond soviet man, beyond many things. And possibility to adjust into new forms is that its made compatible with "russian mentality". But perhaps enough of this topic since it is kind of irrelevant, as it was meant only as reference to point out difference in influence of environment. How same things could not been enforced in... lets say France?

As example we could simply use Japanese noise, and japanese culture as reference too. How Japanese noise manifested itself very differently. Even in its vast diversity of sound.

I think bottom line appears, that you are worried of generalization & mistake what would misinterpret the individual. Lump him into group he doesn't feel being in. And I really don't share this worry.
We all know that USA is not just country. We know Russian ain't really country either. They're more of empires with bigger diversity than whole europe counted together. Still, as explained in just about every message, it's ideological choice to reject "person" or "individual" in his banal form. This includes rejecting the necessity to treat every person as individual - which they most often are not. They can be looked simply as perfect example of some mass where there are more common traits, common influenced, common motivators, than little differences. From that background (through acceptance or rejection) they may rise.

One may argue our gender, racial, national and cultural traits are imaginary, and simply people following the expectation (or observer counting only the expected + ruling out different) is what makes them true. Or that men and women are trapped in imaginary gender roles? And it argument means what? That people could be different, but aren't, under cultural reasons they couldn't really escape?

That being said - I don't mean one could not even dedicate his whole life to get away from such restrictions. It is perhaps one of most traditional elements of ("alternative") art, but about how successful this has been - is up to debate!

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 10, 2012, 12:23:51 PM

As example we could simply use Japanese noise, and japanese culture as reference too. How Japanese noise manifested itself very differently. Even in its vast diversity of sound.

But I don't understand this conclusion. If in Poland aren't unique / original noise/PE projects it will mean that Poland hasn't its "mentality" or its "culture"?

I have had no possibility to observe how Polish culture affected industrial movement, but it has certainly effected polish black metal or polish anarcho punk type of things, which stood strong and unique especially in peak of the specific subculture. Certainly there was more than just random cases occurring, why polish BM was what it was, while Czech or Slovakia for example hardly had anything similar. And why Polish BM thematically and sonically was so different from Norway, Sweden, Finland, USA, etc... Where influence of folk music, myths, countrys political, social and religious history and many others molded it very different.

The more there are examples, the easier it becomes to see things. You can't make much conclusion based on one or two bands. Based on "movement", especially happening in specific moment in specific location, by specific group of people, you can observe the common traits and reasons.

This -

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on June 27, 2012, 09:47:14 AM

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 27, 2012, 06:11:49 AM

Quote from: Brad on June 27, 2012, 05:25:41 AM(It really amazes me how much self-loathing and mental illness gets expressed in the lyrics of some music- how do these people ever feel confident enough to produce/release anything???)

It has been discussed here before that expressing ideas and concepts in music is not the same thing as actually holding/acting upon those ideas and concepts in life. Also, people have varying degrees of self confidence to achieve, or not achieve, things they want to do. And also, some people are just so damn driven to express their feelings they just have to do it anyway.

If somebody creates lyrics with serial killers topics it doesn't mean that this artist must kill in reality to prove his authenticity. But. His authenticity is questionable when he expresses mainstream values in ordinary life, when he feels very good amongst so called normal people, parents, who wants to co-create society structures, who is condemning every murder, acts of terror from real life without willing to understand motives, and so on.

It's known that in art all things are redrawing by artists but those things should describe TRUE soul of artist, his real views and real relation to environment.

- probably should be in this thread, since this has been touched upon here and has nothing to do with what Brad was on about. In brief, I don't agree. "Authenticity" of a respective artist is not something I consider when digging music. I don't accept your definition of authenticity in this case anyway, but you're welcome to it and I don't want to change your mind about it. And I have no interest in an artist's "TRUE soul", in most cases, since such an abstract concept can be defined in any old way. Artists can do what they want, I'm as interested or un-interested as the case may be.

Any artists' "authenticity" lies in the art they create.

Don't mis-understand me - I can see it's a big issue for you, and that's fine. Perhaps the issue of "authenticity" could be discussed further, by yourself and others. But you were getting well off topic on Brad's thread so it's probably to either take it here or start another thread.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 27, 2012, 04:15:25 PM
Don't mis-understand me - I can see it's a big issue for you, and that's fine. Perhaps the issue of "authenticity" could be discussed further, by yourself and others. But you were getting well off topic on Brad's thread so it's probably to either take it here or start another thread.

Ok, no problem. This isn't important for me where I can talk about that.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on June 27, 2012, 04:15:25 PM
And I have no interest in an artist's "TRUE soul",
Any artists' "authenticity" lies in the art they create.

I have no interest in artist 's soul too (excluding few cases). Duo to this case once I wrote that I am not interest in reading interviews or closer knowing face-to-face people who create music which I like. Usually, then I disillusioned (disappointed?) with those artists. I prefer to enter into illusion of art, not artists views which he claimes in interviews or in conversation with me. Luckily there are some artists who have been consequent for many years, and their life is such like their art on level of some important values.

This article gave me a clear idea of the philosophy behind power electronics projects. And also gave me an answer to why modern American noise had such a different approach compared to others.l
Whats funny is hardcore punk bands that adopted the power electronics attitude
(Bands like breathing problem related Total Abuse) were called off as
Mysterious Guy hardcore and some scenr people differentiated them and didnt accept them . The cause of this might be the mundane nature of hardcore or punk in general and its funny how the sitiation is backwards. What do you think of the Mysterious Guy hardcore phenomena and people calling it that way?

Quote from: Peterson on July 01, 2012, 11:24:54 PM
I think it's kind of interesting that Sex Vid were released on Dom America, but I do not like that band, very much. I guess I could rant for a bit about these sorts of people, they seem to dominate the so-called fringes of any scene, exploiting whatever "old-school" stuff they can in order to seem more informed and elite.

Maybe you know something I don't know about the guy in the band and behind Dom America, but if not, I believe you're off the mark with this particular example.  I'm not here to defend him.  Our perspectives aren't often truth.

I had to google the so-called 'mysterious guy' thing. Did the term come from someone in one of those bands or their critics?

Use to be curous about Burmese but was always leery about'em so never really checked anything out. Seems like I may have d/l'd a split, maybe with Fistula? Didn't save it & can't remember anything.

I think the Dom America label name was purchased after St. Degeneratus moved to Thailand. I've never heard Sex Vid but remember thinking it was odd they 'on' Dom Am. Still hope he's planning to reissue "Youthful Pleasures"!

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on July 02, 2012, 12:34:48 AM
I had to google the so-called 'mysterious guy' thing.

Same here. Seems like little more than a few minutes I'm not going to get back! Interesting though to see a (loose) connection to Collective Zine and not altogether surprising given my past interaction with/awareness of them.

Quote from: jangbi08 on July 01, 2012, 04:37:04 PMWhats funny is hardcore punk bands that adopted the power electronics attitude

The impression this outsider is getting is that it's the other way around - hardcore kids getting into PE and taking their pretensions with them.

Quote from: jangbi08 on July 01, 2012, 04:37:04 PMMysterious Guy hardcore

Quote from: Peterson on July 01, 2012, 11:24:54 PMThe "mysterious guy hardcore phenomena" is one of the stupidest micro-trends I've ever seen.

This is an international forum, folks - please don't assume everyone in the world knows what's going on in your region's backyards.

I had never heard of "mysterious guy hardcore" either, but when listening to Sex Vid or Cult Ritual, I don't see any point of having even new genre there.
There's been plenty of punk and noiserock and hardcore with dark and mysterious topics.

The " Mysterious Guy Hardcore" thing is probably the best thing to happen to hardcore in years.

It's literally taking away everything that makes modern day hardcore shit:
-The subject matter has become much more interesting...instead of endless songs about "The Scene" or being straight edge or being vegan, the lyrics tend to be massivly introspective: self loathing, perversions, obsessions etc like an offspring of P.E. and Black Flag.
-The way the releases are recorded seems much more lo-fi, which is such a massive improvement from the over polished sound.
-The playing seems to be more based on the early 80's style hardcore, which makes it sound more urgent and frantic whilst remaining simple.
-It's back to DIY instead of these massive "indie" labels.

I mean granted - it's a stupid name and as a sub - sub genre it's only really making it easier to cater to a specific taste(80's Black Flag Void loving hardcore) but i really wish it was this frustrated type or style that represented hardcore punk these days...Instead what were left with is bands full of sportswear-short wearing meatheads acting niggerfied and being bemusingly preoccupied with their post codes (zip codes) and "representing".

I'm sure with different, less retarded name tag, there wouldn't be complaints.

Without knowing pretty much any of the bands more than reading a bit and some youtube clips, I have to agree anything what removes the hc/punk from sportswear & scene/crew talk type stuff must be positive. Not to mention self recorded, self released method. I just don't think that its anything NEW in hc/punk, what would even require new name for it?

I would look finland, KTMK or lets say Terveet Kädet is no "scene", no dress codes, so vegan. It's about rubber fetish, scat, candles up your ass, black god torturing blood dripping victims, etc etc.

World is full of examples. Of course I understand that someone would want to get new name to avoid being compared to what is known to be the sportwear hc, but if bands don't even sound like that side of genre and appear still logical continuum of genres earlier years. It appears more like the usual media scam. We need new "phenomena" or "spectacle". It would be no news there is raw punk bands doing tapes.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 02, 2012, 08:17:55 PM
I just don't think that its anything NEW in hc/punk, what would even require new name for it?

Every skate trick has been renamed.  I find it really strange.  I get that cultures have a root or two deeply planted in colloquialisms, but it feels like the last decade or so has been busy with making its mark on things by simply renaming what has already been established by others.  That isn't language evolving, for which I'm almost always an advocate.  It's like climbing a mountain, throwing the last flag off the peak after you've checked to make sure no one is looking, and then slapping your flag down and declaring your own greatness.  "I WAS HERE!"  Maybe it is akin to that grade school creative writing journalism we see pawned off as review...that says absolutely nothing about anything, but goddamn it, they left their mark.

Quote from: youngnosh on July 02, 2012, 07:17:10 PM-The subject matter has become much more interesting...instead of endless songs about "The Scene" or being straight edge or being vegan, the lyrics tend to be massivly introspective: self loathing, perversions, obsessions etc like an offspring of P.E. and Black Flag.
-The way the releases are recorded seems much more lo-fi, which is such a massive improvement from the over polished sound.
-The playing seems to be more based on the early 80's style hardcore, which makes it sound more urgent and frantic whilst remaining simple.
-It's back to DIY instead of these massive "indie" labels.

In other words, hardcore's gone retro. Again. Big fucking whoopee.

Can I get a couple bands and a couple labels as examples?  I don't buy much hardcore/punk anymore, but I follow it almost as closely as I ever have.  Ridiculous revisionist terms aside, I cannot figure out what bands and labels this discussion includes.

My hunch is that Peterson and youngnosh are talking about a brand of metal and metalcore culture that has about as much to do with hardcore/punk as cotton balls glued to Q-tips have to do with golf.  Hatebreed?  Earth Crisis contemporaries?  Is that it?

Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 03, 2012, 03:05:53 AM
Can I get a couple bands and a couple labels as examples?  I don't buy much hardcore/punk anymore, but I follow it almost as closely as I ever have.  Ridiculous revisionist terms aside, I cannot figure out what bands and labels this discussion includes.

Most of the "big" mysterious hardcore bands were on Youth Attack.

I never got into it.

Quote from: youngnosh on July 02, 2012, 07:17:10 PM
The " Mysterious Guy Hardcore" thing is probably the best thing to happen to hardcore in years.

Haha, right.

"Mysterious guy hardcore" was just another trend pure and simple.
A movement which somehow brought tape releases, diy record labels, band camp,screen printing, cool artwork, photography, zines, ect to the attention of many unimaginative people. Many things people into noise music were already readily familiar with.
The " Mysterious Guy Hardcore" thing is just a contemporary fetishistic approach to 80's hardcore punk which has no relation to "hardcore" punk.
I think Raw Nerve or Migraine made the best music from that scene. Cult Ritual played in my living room, that was neat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU4FZgbDCCA < raw nerve cover youth of today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZW8JhpbHq0 < migraine

haven't cared about this kind of music in like 2+ years

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on July 02, 2012, 12:34:48 AM
Use to be curous about Burmese

Keith, Burmese is garbage.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 02, 2012, 09:12:16 AM
I had never heard of "mysterious guy hardcore" either, but when listening to Sex Vid or Cult Ritual, I don't see any point of having even new genre there.
There's been plenty of punk and noiserock and hardcore with dark and mysterious topics.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on July 03, 2012, 02:25:02 AMIn other words, hardcore's gone retro. Again. Big fucking whoopee.

Quote from: Peterson on July 02, 2012, 09:51:55 PM

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 02, 2012, 08:17:55 PM
I'm sure with different, less retarded name tag, there wouldn't be complaints.

Without knowing pretty much any of the bands more than reading a bit and some youtube clips, I have to agree anything what removes the hc/punk from sportswear & scene/crew talk type stuff must be positive.

I would agree, but I still don't want everything compartmentalized into little subgenres constantly.

I understand this opinion but disagree somewhat.
I remember in my youth before the Internet became as reliable as it is for downloading and streaming etc
I used to buy all my records in shops that tended to be a good train ride away, the traveling would cost money and inevitably reduce the amount of money I had to spend on records once i got to wherever I was going.
Now, in some shops I'd be lucky to find a label on the cd giving a very brief description of the sounds within. With bands as relatively diverse as Void, Throwdown, nine Shocks Terror, discharge, circle jerks etc all coming under the "hardcore" banner, I never really knew EXACTLY what I would get when purchasing a recording that would have a sticker bearing "hardcore" on the cover...I guess you can see where I'm going with this one.
It may be cosumerist or whatever but the sub sub sub sub sub categorisation of music, is to me, a consumer, nothing but good.
Everything should be like Ronsil.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on July 03, 2012, 02:25:02 AM

Quote from: youngnosh on July 02, 2012, 07:17:10 PM-The subject matter has become much more interesting...instead of endless songs about "The Scene" or being straight edge or being vegan, the lyrics tend to be massivly introspective: self loathing, perversions, obsessions etc like an offspring of P.E. and Black Flag.
-The way the releases are recorded seems much more lo-fi, which is such a massive improvement from the over polished sound.
-The playing seems to be more based on the early 80's style hardcore, which makes it sound more urgent and frantic whilst remaining simple.
-It's back to DIY instead of these massive "indie" labels.

In other words, hardcore's gone retro. Again. Big fucking whoopee.

Yeah, it's not a big deal at all really but I must admit that I'm happy that an entire micro sub genre of music has sprung up that caters for my exact taste of hardcore with the regards to the style of recording, style of play, Diy ethics, content etc
I guess explaining it's  likewhen you visit a mate who's trying to explain just how great something their new born baby has done, and you're thinking...it's just a baby.

Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 03, 2012, 03:05:53 AM
Can I get a couple bands and a couple labels as examples?  I don't buy much hardcore/punk anymore, but I follow it almost as closely as I ever have.  Ridiculous revisionist terms aside, I cannot figure out what bands and labels this discussion includes.

My hunch is that Peterson and youngnosh are talking about a brand of metal and metalcore culture that has about as much to do with hardcore/punk as cotton balls glued to Q-tips have to do with golf.  Hatebreed?  Earth Crisis contemporaries?  Is that it?

I think Band wise - Total Abuse, Nazi Dust and Sexdrome are proably the best, but don't expect too much though...just imagine that The Necros had recorded another album circa conquest for death or something along those lines - not reinventing the wheel but making wheels from a blueprint when wheels were made the best.
Label wise - it's all over bit the aforementioned youth attack is a good place to start then there is "not normal", "video disease"...other stuff used to come up on the youth attack message board until it got deleted, otherwise - pure stench advertises the odd release.

Quote from: Mikerdeath on July 03, 2012, 06:17:14 AM

Quote from: youngnosh on July 02, 2012, 07:17:10 PM
The " Mysterious Guy Hardcore" thing is probably the best thing to happen to hardcore in years.

Haha, right.

"Mysterious guy hardcore" was just another trend pure and simple.
A movement which somehow brought tape releases, diy record labels, band camp,screen printing, cool artwork, photography, zines, ect to the attention of many unimaginative people. Many things people into noise music were already readily familiar with.
The " Mysterious Guy Hardcore" thing is just a contemporary fetishistic approach to 80's hardcore punk which has no relation to "hardcore" punk.
I think Raw Nerve or Migraine made the best music from that scene. Cult Ritual played in my living room, that was neat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU4FZgbDCCA < raw nerve cover youth of today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZW8JhpbHq0 < migraine

haven't cared about this kind of music in like 2+ years

All the things that you mentioned it has brought into hardcore (whether into unimaginative hands or not) are good things!
After you recent Negative Approach tip, Mike, I would have thought this would be something you could dig!

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on May 29, 2012, 09:27:18 PM
No, but more often making noise/PE projects about themselves. Or the mundane interests.
Not having substance what radiates the persona behind it, which at least to me is great difference.

It was talked for example in Jason Crumer interview of SI#7, where question about change of content in USA noise (/pe) was asked. How big % this affects? Probably enough to acknowledge it.

Foreigners tend to have a smug sense of self-importance due to their liberal educational system. This is especially true in Sweden where feminist leaders are trying to eliminate gender differences and competitive learning in classmates by making sure everyone is a "winner".

Well, hard to say if that would have affected swedish noise or power electronics?

Quote from: jesusfaggotchrist on April 01, 2013, 04:06:54 AM
Foreigners tend to have a smug sense of self-importance due to their liberal educational system. This is especially true in Sweden where feminist leaders are trying to eliminate gender differences and competitive learning in classmates by making sure everyone is a "winner".

True! All a bunch of liberal queers who can't take criticism because their parents told them they're good at everything they do. Rendered us completely useless in the industrial scheme.

Cult Ritual played in my basement, with White Heteros or whatever that  project was called. CR was good live, but I could never listen to it. Should have picked up merch though to flip. Total Abuse is so fucking weak. Glad that stuff isn't really in anymore. Can at least live with this current trend of RP, streetpunk, Raspberry Bulbs next wave.

Quote from: ARKHE on April 01, 2013, 08:16:42 PM

Quote from: jesusfaggotchrist on April 01, 2013, 04:06:54 AM
Foreigners tend to have a smug sense of self-importance due to their liberal educational system. This is especially true in Sweden where feminist leaders are trying to eliminate gender differences and competitive learning in classmates by making sure everyone is a "winner".

True! All a bunch of liberal queers who can't take criticism because their parents told them they're good at everything they do. Rendered us completely useless in the industrial scheme.

that's not what I meant, it was a general statement, had nothing to do with quality of industrial music produced there, was just pointing something out. sorry If I came a cross as a dick that night. I was bored and running on little to no sleep.

Quote from: horse worship on April 01, 2013, 10:28:39 PM
Cult Ritual played in my basement, with White Heteros or whatever that  project was called. CR was good live, but I could never listen to it. Should have picked up merch though to flip. Total Abuse is so fucking weak. Glad that stuff isn't really in anymore. Can at least live with this current trend of RP, streetpunk, Raspberry Bulbs next wave.

I dig a lot of the Youth Attack stuff, esp. VILE GASH, they sound like a vicious mix of Poison Idea with elements of noise rock a la Flipper/No Trend.

This probably has more to do with the social factor/generation me part of this but I definitely liked hardcore/etc a lot more before every new band was just a culmination of their coolest record influences. I don't really listen to it anymore, care less and less as I get old/more jaded/Portland continues to be fashion crust capital/punk mecca.
I did like the Vile Gash stuff I've heard...
Didn't "Mysterious Guy Hardcore" term originate from that stupid Terminal Boredom board? Pretty much says enough for the genre. People with no previous interest in hc getting really into Negative Approach, Swans, covering Rudimentary Peni blab blab blah...