The Rift Between PE and HN

[HONOR_IS_KING!]

The tough guy thread reminded me of this but its something I've noticed in particular in more recent years. At least in America it seems that the rift between PE and Harsh Noise fans/artists is growing steadily. It usually feels like the HN folks are usually the first ones to denounce or make negative comments about PE. Just my observations over the years how rarely I hear PE artists talk poorly about HN as a genre and actually half if not more tend to be HN fans as well. 

[absurdexposition]

I see/hear none of this that can be taken as more than mere comments on an individual's personal taste. The many varied orders people make via the distro would contribute to the argument that there is no rift at all, or at least no change compared to how things have been some time. There are certainly people who only order only HN or only PE (and in fact I would say that there are more folks inclined to order only PE than vice versa), but the majority of orders are absolute mixed bags and to me showcase a really blossoming "scene" of people just simply being down with the magnitude of great material coming out seemingly daily at this point.

[W.K.]

In America?

Or on this forum, among American users?

[New Forces]

I think you're just noticing a few loud voices. Personally, as far as sales through the label, its the opposite. I get way more orders of people only getting the available power-electronics releases (as opposed to people only buying harsh noise). The rest of the orders tend to be a mixed bag - harsh noise, drone, industrial, PE, and so on... I think it may have something to do with people newer to experimental music, coming out of metal/punk/hardcore, who are chasing their initial interest in power-electronics.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

The tough guy thread reminded me of this but its something I've noticed in particular in more recent years. At least in America it seems that the rift between PE and Harsh Noise fans/artists is growing steadily. It usually feels like the HN folks are usually the first ones to denounce or make negative comments about PE. Just my observations over the years how rarely I hear PE artists talk poorly about HN as a genre and actually half if not more tend to be HN fans as well.  

I share similar experience and obseravations. I suppose that HN is a ultra radical style of music, behind that is nothing. PE is considered as something less radical (as intense of sound), so as something worse.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

In America?

Or on this forum, among American users?

I think this depends on country, most of all probably size.
When Troniks/Chondritic forum was up and running the strongest, basically every time one talked about PE or industrial, especially any band who had notch darker content, there was influx of wise ass & dismissive comments from "people with other tastes". The big boys of forum decided that what if they open section solely for PE and related. Due massive amount of topics on that forum, it enabled both find the info you wanted and avoid the info you did not want.

When SI forum was opened, for first it was clearly predominantly PE/industrial noise section of that board that shifted here.

Like the distro owners describe, absurdexposition and:

Personally, as far as sales through the label, its the opposite. I get way more orders of people only getting the available power-electronics releases (as opposed to people only buying harsh noise). The rest of the orders tend to be a mixed bag - harsh noise, drone, industrial, PE, and so on... I think it may have something to do with people newer to experimental music, coming out of metal/punk/hardcore, who are chasing their initial interest in power-electronics.

My experience is that the people who buy and listen, are basically for anything good. I would also observe that "political", "sexual", "social" matters are not really obsolete or meaningless, but most people listen things for other things than dogmatically boosting up the identity politics. Some curate very strict and aesthetically uniform collection of "arty experimental" or "vile filth", but vast majority take Kjostad and Being releases with ZyklonSS and Bizarre Uproar, in same order.

Even if I have put mission statement of SI to fix that rift (in form of including all sorts of noise in magazine etc), I think it is not something what can or even should be fixed. If one absolutely wants no frills crunchy noise, its pointless to push conceptual keyboard music with processed vocals for him - on individual level. As forum, distro or magazine, one can obviously advance the morphosis to desired direction.

I think the dislike and even hatred for PE has been there since early days. One just have to look at how GPO felt about Whitehouse, and similar views were not uncommon. Amount of critical opinions are vast and been there for 40 years. Nowadays it feels that reactions are more petty. If there is any of secondary or lesser importance, a minor thing, somewhere, sometime - that seems to be element that will cause reaction by people who tend to focus on reacting on such things. It is not that big deal.

[JLIAT]

My two penny worth to this "interesting" topic.

Industrial, Power Electronics,  Noise, Harsh Noise, Harsh Noise Wall. The difficulty with categories, though useful, is that now (post Aristotle) categories blend into each other. Yet there are obvious differences at some point. I think this occurs in the 'music' of which we are discussing here, but, and this might help, it is not a unique phenomena. So whilst Expressionism in art was very much about the human (negative) condition, and could be seen to relate to Industrial and PE, Abstract Expressionism which 'evolved' from Expressionism was not, or became not. The Jackson Pollock fields of colour are more cosmological that anthropological, yet derived in his work from his paintings of human conflict. Likewise serialism was 'expressive' of a human condition, but likewise became abstracted. To the extent that this art expresses nothing. Ad Reinhardt's famous "Art is Art and everything else is everything else".  And similar kinds of things occurred in Poetry.. and so called minimal art, and minimalism in music.

Noise (IMO) when not modified to express is no different to such extreme (Ultimate) paintings. And so whilst a white Malevich might be thought 'mystical' is it any different in its communicative ability than a white Rauschenberg or the First Communion of Anaemic Young Girls In The Snow - Alphonse Allais...

So whilst Industrial or PE artists can by manipulation of sound express stuff, at the limit of pure noise, sans difference, nothing can be expressed, except perhaps 'being'. (which i guess is where even Vomir fails)


P.S. (The rift!) That minimalism was considered better than what went before, like maybe noise was / is considered better than PE, was its 'purity', less is more of modernism. But to quote The great Noddy Holder, Moma we are all crazy now....

[theotherjohn]

Not to derail the thread any more than JLIAT has done, but I'm appreciating reading these responses from distro owners who have demonstrable evidence of the tastes of their customers, what influence they (either the distros or the customers) may have in shaping them/following the crowd, and so on. Labels have a very one-sided perspective of which people are buying what, but the broader perspective and customer data of distros and shop owners surely presents a wider picture, even if it's within the specific niches of noise and/or PE. At the same time, I'd be very interested to know what makes a customer decide to order from which shops or distros. Do customers simply cherry pick certain titles from a distro due to their price and availability at that given moment, or have larger associations (good or bad) or reliances been created? Obviously it's the dream of a distro or shop to have regularly returning customers, but I would love to know more about how that has happened either intentionally or organically (and without too many secrets being revealed). I understand this subject has been suggested as a future feature for the SI magazine, so it's probably more deserving of attention and preservation as a print article rather than a fleeting forum thread. Still, if distro heads have further comments to make along these lines then I fully welcome them.

[JLIAT]

Not to derail the thread any more than JLIAT has done,

How is derailing the thread providing a possible, (note) answer to the topic?


"the purification of the Japanese harsh noise scene into a more refined crunch, which crystallizes the tonal qualities of distortion in a slow moving minimalistic texture." - correction, David Novak p.57, Japanoise.  Cites McKinley by using these terms - "best" "harshest" ...

I think making something more pure is seen by some a progressive improvement - which is a typical moderist idea. Less is more etc. Hense the rift.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I'd be very interested to know what makes a customer decide to order from which shops or distros.

I experienced one main rule - relation. The more well-known act / composer  - the better sale, the bigger interest. So, the same situation as in the pop music/culture. Frankly speaking this mentality of allegedly "independent" customers  greatly contributed to stop my label activity.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I'd be very interested to know what makes a customer decide to order from which shops or distros.

I experienced one main rule - relation. The more well-known act / composer  - the better sale, the bigger interest. So, the same situation as in the pop music/culture. Frankly speaking this mentality of allegedly "independent" customers  greatly contributed to stop my label activity.

My experience is quite different. There are number of high profile known names, that are respected and wanted. Yet being well known in my experience is almost irrelevant. As example, I always sell more and faster fresh new up & coming noise artists than M.B., Merzbow, Masonna, Hijokaidan, and so on. Sometimes, but not always, it may be reflection of magnitude of discography. It is far easier in 2020 to sell debut album of unknown but fairly interesting artist than say yet another Atrax Morgue reissue LP.

This topic is of course not really related to "the rift".

[JLIAT]

I'd be very interested to know what makes a customer decide to order from which shops or distros.

I experienced one main rule - relation. The more well-known act / composer  - the better sale, the bigger interest. So, the same situation as in the pop music/culture. Frankly speaking this mentality of allegedly "independent" customers  greatly contributed to stop my label activity.

My experience is quite different. There are number of high profile known names, that are respected and wanted. Yet being well known in my experience is almost irrelevant. As example, I always sell more and faster fresh new up & coming noise artists than M.B., Merzbow, Masonna, Hijokaidan, and so on. Sometimes, but not always, it may be reflection of magnitude of discography. It is far easier in 2020 to sell debut album of unknown but fairly interesting artist than say yet another Atrax Morgue reissue LP.

This topic is of course not really related to "the rift".

Not on topic - and i've no experience of distribution, but might not those seeking the non "big names" which can be found in record stores and Amazon etc. seek out more 'specialist' and singular artists in those sites which promote and distribute such work, in order to widen their tastes / interests.

reminds me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECyX8A3iP0

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

coming noise artists than M.B., Merzbow, Masonna, Hijokaidan, and so onartist than say yet another Atrax Morgue reissue LP.

Jeeezz, these names are so big that I can dream only about releasing their albums. So, I didn't mean "such big names". In any case - our experience is different and, of course, mine is less opinion-forming because of much more less range in the circle.

[WCN]

Interesting topic- I have no access to a computer for a while but feel compelled to put my 2 cents in, even if it means typing on my phone, so probably will be scattered and incomplete.

In short: I see noise in its pure sense as an empty emotional vessel. That the power and chaos of this type of sound allows to unlock deeper meaning or illumination through the introspective experience of the listener. The sound in itself is actually "superficial" in that it's free of content or meaning. There may be some inherent erotic qualities to it I think, but that may also be subjective experience.

"Power Electronics" is actually quite far off from noise in it's function for me I've come to realize (over the years). PE is loaded with specific information, especially when there is a human voice delivering lyrics. The presence of this is alone changes the experience dramatically from listening to pure noise. The "sounds" thrmselves are also often very closely related to traditional western music (Especially when we talk about "industrial") More 4/4 rhythmic patters, calculated 4 minute song structures, melodic elements, and the predictable vocal cadence. Sure, it may be noisy and chaotic, but it's basically deconstructed music. This is of course not a devaluation of PE, it just is a different type of music with a different type of effect.

As for criticism of the "content" of PE, that's a whole different beast. I'm sure I'm not going to cover all my ground here, but my attraction to PE and the "darker side" of noise as Mikko has put it, is that in its best cases, it gives honest language to evil and power - something which is rarely done in art. The thing is, I find that it often stops there, and the argument that it's "dealing with" certain topics to be an overstatement for most PE artists. Rather in most cases it is simply exploiting them. This is certainly OK and can be fascinating and, depending on what kind of person you are and what your values are, continuously so. But for others, the amount of time needed to wallow in this specific  pool is limited.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Not on topic - and i've no experience of distribution, but might not those seeking the non "big names" which can be found in record stores and Amazon etc. seek out more 'specialist' and singular artists in those sites which promote and distribute such work, in order to widen their tastes / interests.

reminds me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECyX8A3iP0

This topic can be divided from "the rift" as its own if it catches on to grow more.
Yes, there is so many variables. Item that is widely available and being pressed a lot, clearly indicates that it may be in more demand, but small noise label barely moves Merz CD that is pressed 1000 copies as it has been available "everywhere". Same can be said of titles that every distributor carries.
However, many names I mentioned, have releases that are editions of 100-200, and not even that expensive, and they still do not move in the way like some newbie noise issued on tape, edition of +-100. One can make assumption that new guys would prefer to hear new stuff instead of decades old stuff. Good thing. Or people have enough of artist X in their shelves and they prefer to give it a try for Y. Which may be also good thing.

One negative aspect that I can connect to this, is that several good artists, who formerly put out proper albums, seem to fall into gap of having nobody to release/distribute stuff, and big names end up putting out digital releases (that do not interest me) or lazy CDR that is available nowhere.