Noise and Starting From Scratch

[Andrew McIntosh]

If someone is looking for a specific sound or at least some direction, is that so wrong?

I've already covered that in this thread, but to repeat - nothing against asking for a bit of basic advice, everything against wanting to sound just like someone else. Two very seperate things, in fact.

Have you never been to a noise show, been amazed at someones sound and asked yourself "how does he/she does it?" ? (If your answer is no, then you are getting jaded. If both answers are no, maybe its time to seek a new hobby).

No, never, at all the Noise gigs I've been to, because I'm just there for the sound and the energy. That's not being jaded, that's being into the sound and the energy. I saw Merzbow play with two laptops. Never occurred to me to wonder what sort of software he was using. Why should I? It doesn't matter. But it would matter to people who want to sound exactly like Merzbow.

[host body]

I saw Merzbow play with two laptops. Never occurred to me to wonder what sort of software he was using. Why should I? It doesn't matter. But it would matter to people who want to sound exactly like Merzbow.

I'm actually interested in what software he used to play live, hah. And I only use a laptop for recording. was it MAX?

Hell, I'm always interested in how sounds are made. Like, I don't go around asking stuff online (anymore) but starting out sure I tried to find out what kind of gear in general people used. I love gear chat, I love Trashware and I love geeking out about what my favourite artists use. In general a newbie asking what distortion pedal is best is like a guitarist just starting asking what guitar is best. They'll find their way, it's just a starting point. I don't feel one bit annoyed or threatened by younger people looking for advice or guidance.

[Commander15]

I saw Merzbow play with two laptops. Never occurred to me to wonder what sort of software he was using. Why should I? It doesn't matter. But it would matter to people who want to sound exactly like Merzbow.

I'm actually interested in what software he used to play live, hah. And I only use a laptop for recording. was it MAX?

Hell, I'm always interested in how sounds are made. Like, I don't go around asking stuff online (anymore) but starting out sure I tried to find out what kind of gear in general people used. I love gear chat, I love Trashware and I love geeking out about what my favourite artists use. In general a newbie asking what distortion pedal is best is like a guitarist just starting asking what guitar is best. They'll find their way, it's just a starting point. I don't feel one bit annoyed or threatened by younger people looking for advice or guidance.

Yes, the starting point is crucial. It is far more easier to pursuit one's own personal approach and style if there is even one reference point to get things moving. That combined with actual process of listening to the noise records and absorbing all things connected to noise / industrial culture.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I saw Merzbow play with two laptops. Never occurred to me to wonder what sort of software he was using. Why should I? It doesn't matter. But it would matter to people who want to sound exactly like Merzbow.

I'm actually interested in what software he used to play live, hah. And I only use a laptop for recording. was it MAX?

Hell, I'm always interested in how sounds are made. Like, I don't go around asking stuff online (anymore) but starting out sure I tried to find out what kind of gear in general people used. I love gear chat, I love Trashware and I love geeking out about what my favourite artists use. In general a newbie asking what distortion pedal is best is like a guitarist just starting asking what guitar is best. They'll find their way, it's just a starting point. I don't feel one bit annoyed or threatened by younger people looking for advice or guidance.

Yes, the starting point is crucial. It is far more easier to pursuit one's own personal approach and style if there is even one reference point to get things moving. That combined with actual process of listening to the noise records and absorbing all things connected to noise / industrial culture.

Excuse for quote mountain here. Indeed, I also do not really want to know Merzbows gear or how he uses it as intent to replicate it, but simply out of curiosity. Artificial Invagination and Noisembryo for example. I have formerly stated, that if there would be one artists to check out while he works, that era Merzbow would be probably it.

Noise of that level is so much more about taste and sense of style, that regardless if you get the gear list, I doubt you will be able to replicate it. Talent to use, plus even more the taste and vision.

I don't think I started topic of it, but not long ago, I was following a bit of discussion related to noise newbies, where was mentioned that too many people don't have anything to really express and they merely do it because it is easy to do something and you can then be one of those guys who made noise release. Yeah, perhaps. There are lots of that these days, but I don't see it purely negative. There is not always mythological level of how noise project started.
As example, back in '93, myself and Harald Mentor were talking about Bizarre Uproar, MITB and stuff such as that. Conclusion was "What it really takes? WE could do it". We agreed, lets do C-20 split tape! Harald goes for radio-noise, I got very very little of ideas, if any. Tape is made, couple is sent out. 30 years later, both of us still here, making noise. In a way, occasionally works can benefit from someone saying don't bother us with you lame racket, you better step up the game. Occasionally, you can patiently repeat the same advices you've given to countless noise fellows, who some became masters of their craft in relatively short time after given couple encouraging words and a bit of constructive critisim.

[Andrew McIntosh]

I was following a bit of discussion related to noise newbies, where was mentioned that too many people don't have anything to really express and they merely do it because it is easy to do something and you can then be one of those guys who made noise release. Yeah, perhaps. There are lots of that these days, but I don't see it purely negative.

I do. I recall when there was an absolute tsunami of wall Noise releases. Seems to have died down as far as I can see, and that's a good thing. Every day it seemed, there was an announcement of some dick who'd set his Boss Death Metal pedal to stun for half an hour, recorded it, then proclaimed it to represent pure nihilism or his "obsession" for women's tights or some crap.

What we got was an oversaturated, glutted market chock full of shit that these days, rightly, no one remembers (except me, and not fondly). And it's the same situation today. There's just too much of the same old shit. Far too much. Supply exceeds demand.

I know how scenes operate. I know it's initially all about the "wow" and awe of discovery, wanting to get involved by doing pretty much the same thing, then either getting over it, getting to be good at it or getting one's own personal style (as individual as anyone can get, of course - much of this is imitation anyway) which is either accepted or not. For my part, though, the saturation has resulted in too much of the same thing.

So when I see people asking about exactly how someone achieved what kind of sound so they can do it themselves, I just think, great, here we go again, just what the world needed, another imitation. And I think it represents a greater malaise in music generally, which is no doubt impossible to cure. Noise hasn't achieved mainstream recognition (thank fuck) but it has achieved mainstream production values.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I do. I recall when there was an absolute tsunami of wall Noise releases. Seems to have died down as far as I can see, and that's a good thing. Every day it seemed, there was an announcement of some dick who'd set his Boss Death Metal pedal to stun for half an hour, recorded it, then proclaimed it to represent pure nihilism or his "obsession" for women's tights or some crap.

What we got was an oversaturated, glutted market chock full of shit that these days, rightly, no one remembers (except me, and not fondly). And it's the same situation today. There's just too much of the same old shit. Far too much. Supply exceeds demand.

My assumption is, this applies to download/stream scene? As much as I get noise all the time, abundance of dull HWN never was big problem, as you could easily just not buy, not listen, specific makers. Also abundance of physical noise is quite big, but there is funny paradox, that when evaluating your own listening habits, there may be solution. Lets say you'd want new interesting noise. Settling for NEW noise CD releases. Not reissues. Suddenly, I'd say, you CAN listen every single cd of harsh noise that comes out 2023. My experience thus far is, that 2023 will KILL. For quality, cd's that stand out as albums, cd's that will likely survive test of time etc.  It would be foolish think all material out there should be unique. It can't be, as simple as that. Then notion of uniqueness would be obsolete if its opposite would not exist.

Creative urge is something that would be foolish to suppress, by expecting that current teenager who gets excited of noise, should first learn 5 decades worth of what has been already done, and then do something different and unique. Nah. I would suppose, he would do noise for himself, and the new guys like him, who won't be "this sounds just like that OVMN tape that came on MSNP ...back in when you were not born". He can rightfully ask what existence of unheard OVMN tape has to do with his creative urge?

Of course phenomena of absolute copycats and bandwagon jumpers is different, but in noise, there are dozen and dozens of people who never heard and never listened and never will listen, all the stuff we did. They have new ltd 100 tapes in 2023 that can be just as exciting as ltd 100 tape from 2003.

It might or might not have had it own topic. Lets phrase question as: Noise as permanent museum or noise as movement? There are plenty of reasons why noise could be creative movement. Movement as something constantly on move (not to be confused to progress and advancement). Now, we are in situation where communication may mean even more. For those who don't like to wade in the muddy waters of ongoing noise movement, and only seek for the very best releases, they may have to communicate and search with likeminded people to find some, and not just dive into endless HWN bandcamp streams to get bored?

[Andrew McIntosh]

My assumption is, this applies to download/stream scene?

Sort of, but there was a lot of physical product as well. I seem to recall reading the "Noise" section in the Troniks forum and it was almost wall-to-wall Wall. Tapes and cdrs, mostly, as well as downloads. And it was a fairly "new" thing happening at the time, lots of what I presumed to be younger people getting excited by it.

It would be foolish think all material out there should be unique.

Nor do I. I've stated here before how I've got no problem with Average Noise. I recall the push-back on that was a lot of people do expect what they do to be somehow unique enough to gain some attention. You can't win either way. But as far as also-rans are concerned I've got my limits and I'm ready to say so.

Creative urge is something that would be foolish to suppress, by expecting that current teenager who gets excited of noise, should first learn 5 decades worth of what has been already done, and then do something different and unique.

As I've stated a couple of times that's not what I'm saying. I'm at an age and stage where I'm just past all the hand-me-everything-on-a-plate-and-I'll-make-an-album-exactly-like-A, B and C. As I've stated, there's a difference between what you describe and that.

I'm not shitting on excited new people. I'm shitting on a lack of personal curiosity and even an attempt at innovation. I think that at this stage with Noise, a few decades in, all the innovation has no doubt been done and all we've got is repetition. Some new releases, as you state, will no doubt be worthy in and of themselves. But it's why I usually just stick to "the classics" as I understand them. When I do occasionally hear something that excites me, no problem.

It's a funny thing - I've noticed a lot of younger people (a couple of generations younger than me in my fifties) seem to be attracted to music that's older than they are. Is it because they're all out of ideas, or because the music that's coming out now isn't good enough? I don't know. All I know is, for example, I found it very strange being at a party when I was in my mid fourties with a bunch of kids in their twenties listening to the exact same music I was listening to at their age. It's things like that, that leave an impression on me. Not sure what to think of it in general, though.

Of course phenomena of absolute copycats and bandwagon jumpers is different, but in noise, there are dozen and dozens of people who never heard and never listened and never will listen, all the stuff we did. They have new ltd 100 tapes in 2023 that can be just as exciting as ltd 100 tape from 2003.

That's fair enough.

[Commander15]

Well thank god you don't have to wade in some stale bandcamp HNW / harsh noise waters if you don't want to! You can always check for example SATATUHATTA, New Forces, WCN or FA sites for interesting new stuff that has been curated by people who knows their shit.

FreakAnimalFinland brought up an excellent point in his last message: newcomers in year 2023 may never listen to some classic stuff that older people hold in high regard. Or they might, but it is not the driving motivator or influence behind their activities.

For example i started properly listening to noise with Aprapat, The New Jaakko Vanhala and Umpio. I was introduced to The New Blockaders lot later and while i think that TNB is truly groundbreaking stuff in many ways, i still hold Aprapat way bigger influence to me personally. It is the combination of the joy of being able to discover something highly relevant and that is operating actively in the same area and in this age and OFC the sheer quality of those tapes and CDs released.

[Andrew McIntosh]

FreakAnimalFinland brought up an excellent point in his last message: newcomers in year 2023 may never listen to some classic stuff that older people hold in high regard. Or they might, but it is not the driving motivator or influence behind their activities.

It was a good point and I acknowledged it in my last post.

[Zeno Marx]

I'm shitting on a lack of personal curiosity

Hasn't that pretty much been the MO of new noisers for a while now?  If you're talking a generational thing, since maybe the No Fun Fest era, it's appeared to be noise in isolation.  Far-reaching interest into experimentalism in general seems to hold no value.  Noise and only noise.  Maybe a little interest in power-electronics for the kitsch, but brutal only in general.  Tunnel vision.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I have my doubts on couple things. I think what are being described, such as the kind monochrome noise for sake of noise is old. Has been thing. Of course it exists on the side, but seems like you'd now complain of "No Fun hipster noise" and rest will think.. dude, that's so 2005.  Guys who are 18 now, we born then. To put into perspective. It is that old.

Now when getting new noise tape, my experience is, that you'd more likely to get new noise tape with lo-fi piano bits mixed in noise, post harsh noise cut up compositions, tape loop pause button crank, field recordings and birds singing or some variety of the growing of new weird harsh noise, just the name few things besides HNW texture crunch. (As example, the Finn scene, where as concrete proof, one can listen through about 10 compilation CD's of Finnish noise from last 3 years and find pretty much no two bands alike.)

I feel a bit optimistic here about people who ask about gear. Even if you'd be formulating questions that I'd hope to get synth tones and vocal sound like GO, what should I go for. You can without hesitation give some advice. Or like I recall guy asking how to get that distant, little thin vocal sound like some Con-Dom, as he would be shouting in back of the big room. You can give advice, since neither of these will ever sound like those bands. If the sound of original artist can be replicated by owning specific pedal, might not be that great artist in first place?

[Andrew McIntosh]

Far-reaching interest into experimentalism in general seems to hold no value.  Noise and only noise.

What seems to have happened, which has happened for a few decades now, is that people like to pursue genres and sub-genres in some kind of imagined "authenticity" by keeping them in their own little places. Which I think is why so many sub-sub-sub genres keep springing up. A little bit of difference and it suddenly turns into "a thing" on its own.

So, people have varying different projects in which they contain those elements away from each other. Crossover can't but happen, of course, but some people at least like to keep each sub-etc-genre pure. So - here's the Noise project, here's the Death Industrial project, here's the Neo Folk project....

It sort of makes sense because when people purchase a release from a particular project they like to know what they're getting and don't want surprises to disappoint them. But it does make for very homogenised listening. If that's what people want, though, that's what's going to happen.

[Andrew McIntosh]

Now when getting new noise tape, my experience is, that you'd more likely to get new noise tape with lo-fi piano bits mixed in noise, post harsh noise cut up compositions, tape loop pause button crank, field recordings and birds singing or some variety of the growing of new weird harsh noise, just the name few things besides HNW texture crunch. (As example, the Finn scene, where as concrete proof, one can listen through about 10 compilation CD's of Finnish noise from last 3 years and find pretty much no two bands alike.)

I think the last type of development in Noise I was paying attention to was a kind of Jeph Jerman inspired, very heavy on the tape hiss cut up collage type of thing. Quite a few people from different parts of the world all getting into doing things like that at the same time. It was a lot more experimental in that it was people trying something out, taking in different ideas and in general, innovating, at least within their chosen boundaries.

On the one hand I tend to think the well is dry for Noise. Everything that can be done has been done. Noise is certainly not alone in that one. On the other hand, people will occasionally surprise me, which is great, but it certainly can't be expected to be the norm. Which is perfectly fine.

If the sound of original artist can be replicated by owning specific pedal, might not be that great artist in first place?

Certainly in Wall Noise that's the case.

But the other thing is, we're in an age of product saturation and that counts to gear as well. There are now loads of small workshops producing gear specifically for genres like Noise. So, just like the homogeny of computer created Noise, we can enjoy the homogeny of analog Noise with the confidence that all the gear will be by Noise pervs, for Noise pervs, for just authentic, unalloyed "Noise", just like the oldies used to make.

The thing is - until now I've been under an old romantic notion that new generations shake off the influence of the last one to make something new for themselves, and that's how things are made. That has definitely changed. The late Mark Fisher wrote about how, aesthetically, there is no more future to look forward to, it's all just picking bits of the past to replicate and obsess over. I'm starting to believe he was right.

[Commander15]

Now when getting new noise tape, my experience is, that you'd more likely to get new noise tape with lo-fi piano bits mixed in noise, post harsh noise cut up compositions, tape loop pause button crank, field recordings and birds singing or some variety of the growing of new weird harsh noise, just the name few things besides HNW texture crunch. (As example, the Finn scene, where as concrete proof, one can listen through about 10 compilation CD's of Finnish noise from last 3 years and find pretty much no two bands alike.)

I think the last type of development in Noise I was paying attention to was a kind of Jeph Jerman inspired, very heavy on the tape hiss cut up collage type of thing. Quite a few people from different parts of the world all getting into doing things like that at the same time. It was a lot more experimental in that it was people trying something out, taking in different ideas and in general, innovating, at least within their chosen boundaries.

On the one hand I tend to think the well is dry for Noise. Everything that can be done has been done. Noise is certainly not alone in that one. On the other hand, people will occasionally surprise me, which is great, but it certainly can't be expected to be the norm. Which is perfectly fine.

If the sound of original artist can be replicated by owning specific pedal, might not be that great artist in first place?

Certainly in Wall Noise that's the case.

But the other thing is, we're in an age of product saturation and that counts to gear as well. There are now loads of small workshops producing gear specifically for genres like Noise. So, just like the homogeny of computer created Noise, we can enjoy the homogeny of analog Noise with the confidence that all the gear will be by Noise pervs, for Noise pervs, for just authentic, unalloyed "Noise", just like the oldies used to make.

The thing is - until now I've been under an old romantic notion that new generations shake off the influence of the last one to make something new for themselves, and that's how things are made. That has definitely changed. The late Mark Fisher wrote about how, aesthetically, there is no more future to look forward to, it's all just picking bits of the past to replicate and obsess over. I'm starting to believe he was right.

With gear it is the same microlevel thing happening in noise that has been happening for years in guitar-centric genres i.e blues, sludge and worship music. Specialized boutique makers catering for spesific crowd. It's an cottage industry and i think that if the gear is to be blamed on this hypothetical downfall of originality in noise, it is the DOD, Boss and other big names that are to be blamed instead of some garage operations.

In my mind the real culprits are capitalistic consumer mentality, social media fueled alienation and general ultramaterialistic world view in western countries. If newcomer is lacking the inner vision and drive to contribute something to the scene and prime motivation behind the actions are petty and selfish needs to be acknowledged and be seen and affirmed by strangers in internet, then the gear question is highly irrelevant. Youngster with DOD Death Metal or some noise synth may or may not grow into real noisemaker, only time will tell. But meanwhile i think it would be beneficial to them, and all of us, to push them to right direction by others.

Fishers notion is pretty spot on when it is applied to more mainstream oriented music genres where the sameyness and historical references are abundant, but honestly i don't think it can be applied to noise with same certainity. Like FreakAnimalFinland wrote, there are no "same" or nostalgia sounding acts within the Finnish scene that is featured in compilations and that has been putting out records. There is no Merzbow or classic PE cover acts, but incredible variety of personal approaches to noise and industrial sound. And i think that this would also apply to foreign noise scenes outside the bandcamp shit swamp.

[Andrew McIntosh]

The specialist gear market may be small comparatively, but it's an example of what I mean. Instead of taking something that's cheaply available and making it do things it wasn't meant to do, it's purposely giving Noise pervs tools for "just Noise", which may be what people want and it may be the gear themselves are perfectly good tools, but to me it shows the same lack of imagination.

And I also think it's down to consumer mentality. There's no different, I think, between someone buying a flying V and wanting to sound just like Dimebag Darrel and someone buying a Feedbacker 2000 and wanting to sound just like Skin Crime. I see all of that as consumerist - buy the stuff, join the club, supply the market with more copies.

Certainly it comes down to whether any newcomer has any originality or vision or not. And technically, that person could come up with something at least their own regardless of what gear they use. So I don't think it matters if they're using a Boss pedal or a NoiseRUs pedal. And the same applies to someone with no originality.

Noise certainly has had its nostalgia moments. Like a lot of labels all going for the ruined photocopy look on their tape covers. Bloody hell, I'm getting sick of seeing that. It doesn't inspire confidence in the actual sounds. I think there are different themes coming in, which is good, although how themes are actually expressed in Noise is another matter. And at this rate I think PE cover bands are a matter of time.

I'm not against copyists entirely. Torturing Nurse, for example, pretty much wanted to be Hijokaidan, as I understand it. I've got time for Subklinik, who are about as Death Industrial pastiche as it gets. But to go back to what I was on about when I started this thread, when people are actually asking how to use specific gear in a specific way to get a specific sound, that, to me, just sounds like someone just not prepared to put in a bit of original thinking in applying to a situation.

Like if we could compare ten people, all wanting to generate feedback from an amp. That sound, in itself, I've got to say is one of, maybe the most, over-used in Noise and there are plenty of times I've been sick of hearing it. But one of those ten just might stumble on a way to make it sound a bit fresher, but they wont if they play by "the rules". Personally, I have more time for that then the other nine who are just repeating what Whitehouse started decades ago whether they realise it or not.

If people are content with the same old, that's their business. Couldn't stop them even if I wanted to. But I think this is a relevant issue to at least consider and discuss.