Quick distribution question

[catharticprocess]

You do good things for long enough, people will eventually notice and things start to cumulate.
There is nothing to be achieved by cheap quick attention - such as described by Cathartic Process. You can get attention in those ways, but it leads absolutely nowhere.

That's an empirical claim that just doesn't add up for me. I've been doing this for 15 years, maybe not quite as long as you, but close. I've never seen quality and persistence have anything to do with the ability to secure releases, sell them at an above average rate, etc. Not with other artists or myself.

I'm a sociologist, and have been trained to look for patterns in group behavior and such. There's few groups I've ever seen that are as predictable as noise consumers. I would never play the game that would lead to that kind of success -- many know I don't hesitate to burn the bridges that I could profit from crossing. But I am pretty convinced that I could construct a marketing and career strategy for an artist that would land him (and it would have to be a him, or a really hot chick) in the position of the next Prurient. Time spent, talent, etc. would not be factors under consideration. As much as noise and PE artists like to think they're involved with a distinct alternative to the culture industry, all the same rules apply. The same things that launched Lady Gaga as an industry are at work with the more 'successful' noise artists.

[Reprobate]

I definitely agree with that. Look at how many talentless bands/artists exist, yet they make millions of dollars and it's all thanks to marketing. One of the most impressive/evil sciences that exist.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

That's an empirical claim that just doesn't add up for me. I've been doing this for 15 years, maybe not quite as long as you, but close. I've never seen quality and persistence have anything to do with the ability to secure releases, sell them at an above average rate, etc. Not with other artists or myself.

As a sociologist, you may be aware of mentality when nothing is enough?

Lets say 1993 teen boy from Finland was happy to send out 30 tapes.
In 2012 family man from Finland is happy to send out 200 CD's.
It has cumulated, it no longer requires tons of efforts to try to prove it could be worth of someone's time, but someone is actually e-mailing impatiently when there would be something new coming.
For a lot of people, simply nothing is enough. They will always look in horror about someone elses achievements, thinking I should be there - and partly that's the reason they can't. Luckily noise is like life in general. We are unequal like nature meant it. Real stars will shine and scum will suffocate in dirt.

You, as Clew Of Theseus, or new branded project you could attempt to build, won't be Prurient or bands of that scale. It just won't happen. I know it and you know it. And I don't know what would be the problem? Ain't getting neat LP's out on label other side of world enough? What is needed? Frequent indie media coverage?
Just like the next rad cunt assumes they could be next Lady Gaga with "clever marketing", but it ain't happening: There can't be new Merzbow, there can't be new Whitehouse.

Of course we all know, that you can attract small number of people simply by genre choice. Or small aesthetic choice. You can test it by assembling few words (like: HWN, Giallo, swastika, Power Electronics, violence, death industrial, handmade, limited, cosmic, ...) and come up with easy-as-fuck combinations of sound, theme and visual direction what will move 50 tapes. But question remains: What then? What will this 50 tapes out there mean, if you did it for all the wrong reasons? It is beyond my understanding.

There simply ain't any success in ability of "sell them above average". I would hope nobody else feels like they have failed, when their persistent work have not made it possible to charge extra dollars? I think this simply belongs to the absolute core of why people won't "succeed". And why nothing is enough for them.


So, I repeat: Only way to get your stuff "out there" is to do good stuff. Do stuff what matters most of all to yourself. Otherwise their is no point even trying to spread it. And do it without hurry, without intent to "succeed". If you're good enough and interesting enough, people are naturally attracted. If not now, then maybe later. All the cheap marketing hype and silly sociologist studies will mean very little in long run. There's nothing to be gained by "knowing right people", unless reason to know them based on something real. When you try to hang out with people to leech on them, it helps you very little. When you operate on level of mutual interests, it's entire different story.

[Goat93]

If your interested that your Stuff is Spread around, no Joke, deal with RRRecords or some other Labels in this Kind, since Ron supports a Lot of Artists and nearly Trade with everyone. So its an Easy First Step if you'r not interested to make your own Label.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Getting distribution is not easy anymore - if it ever was.

Very few, if anyone, is interested to invest $$ to buy inventory. Less and less appear to be interested to trade as well. Many of "major" distributors in Europe don't bother with tapes. Or CDR's. In Japan there appears to be less possibilities than 5-10 years ago.

When I look the situation in USA, I think many of my releases have from 0 to max 3 distributors. And most have not taken many copies. Selling directly to people appears easier than finding distributors. To find buyers, you need to have stuff available and enough time to spend.

[bitewerksMTB]

That's hard to believe about distribution being difficult. I was under the impression that the noise scene has grown to 100,000+ worldwide & some artists were living the highlife from their work.

[catharticprocess]

Getting distribution is not easy anymore - if it ever was.

When I first started Clew Of Theseus, I was in a similar situation to Retrobate. When I recorded my 7", I thought I was onto something really new and different - I didn't even know there was a noise scene. When the record came out in 1997, Self Abuse readily ordered 15 copies and paid up front. I don't think I've ever had anyone order 15 of any single release since then except for one order of the Skullflower tape. I'm still sitting on new copies of the split 2xCDr with Black Sand Desert, released 10 years ago in an edition of 70.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

That's hard to believe about distribution being difficult. I was under the impression that the noise scene has grown to 100,000+ worldwide & some artists were living the highlife from their work.

Impression about growth may be accurate, but results or way of how growth happens probably not?
It has not grown like pyramid - but like swamp.
There is hardly a "upper level" who keeps enjoying and exploiting those below in hierarchy, but it really is just vast swamp where you get lost and get stuck. Pretty much everybody sells pretty much the same. Pressings nowadays appear to be smaller than most of 90's pressings. Simply much more different titles. Most often the newbie with interesting title can sell exactly same as appreciated veteran.

Only difference comes when you step out to "real world" - such as traveling. Are you "popular" enough that someone will pay your flight to play gig abroad? But also this is the thing which might be confusing for "outsider", since a lot of people do gigs, but aren't getting paid. Even many big names appear to be happy to get what they get. I think best money I got for coming to play in US was 100usd. Such payment barely covers my drive to Helsinki airport and keep car there for parking. But sometimes you simply have to accept fact that to play shows, to make releases, to make trades, etc... none of them may be financially profitable, but worth doing.

It relates to distribution questions. From my experience - first you bang your head to the wall 10 years, then something might happen. But just as Cathartic Process said. There was time when you could put out 7" or LP and wait distros to pick it up. Now, if you find 5 distros willing to BUY LP for cash in significant amounts, I guess you're on winning team? :D
Many times I have said it, and I can say it again: The key element of Freak Animal operations is realistic pressings. There are very few releases what actually are done "real" big normal editions. Say 500 or more. Vast majority of releases, has always been small pressings of 200-300 copies. If you move 50 copies out of 200, it's pretty nice. 1/4 ! But if you move 50 out of 1000, it can be mentally annoying.

Distribution advice = keep it realistic, give it time. If moving 70 CDR's takes 10 years, it's still ok, if release is good and inspiring.

[Zeno Marx]

I know it to be true, but it is still baffling to me that it is no longer a trading-based system.  I cannot imagine trying to run a label in 2012 solely because of that fact.  When I thought to start a label, the first thing I did was write a few existing labels and ask for advice.  I gave them my impressions and ideas for how I wanted my label to go.  One of the most important things anyone told me was that it was easier to sell 2 copies of 500 different records than 1000 copies of a single record.  I didn't want to run a distro or to mess with trading; real greenhorn mentality.  Trading was key to everything I did.  The greatest business and life lessons came out of trading.  Because trading was so fruitful and rewarding in so many ways, I have a difficult time imaging how someone would find the day-to-day desire to keep operating a label.  It was an enormous amount of work.  Without any exaggeration, I probably worked on my label 2-4 hours a night, six days a week.  I truly enjoyed it.  If I miss anything, it is the trading.

My condolences to all those who run a label in 2012.

[bogskaggmannen]

swamp.

It would be interesting to see all this in consumer perspective - if today's climate is not ideal for labels/distros, does the individual rejoice due explosion of microlabels, bands selling their own stuff etc? Are people buying more happy today? I just recall my own listening/buying 10-15 years ago, with distrolists on paper etc. I was pretty happy there was not too much to choose from!

About distro - i'm about to start 12" vinyl only mailorder very soon, so still continuing in the lucrative vein, hah... There was US label which I wanted to order some DLP wholesale to the upcoming mailorder, but when they sell their DLP for $22 and wholesale is $17 + pretty extreme postage costs for vinyls to Europe it's pretty much a nono. Why would I order wholesale for say $17 + say $6 = $23 and adding at least 50% = 27 EUR to customer for DLP + postage costs = say 40 EUR for customer, why would individual order from me when available through net/direct from label for 50% of my price? I can understand distros don't order anymore... Still, I think you should see larger perspective, and in longer terms, so maybe I should try and order anyway, ha ha...

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I enjoy in every next issued item by me. I don't care that some of them will not sold at all. I fuck money in this business which is my passion not job. I have money from my routine work in which I am a whore. My passion must be outside whoredom, money, cynical calculations and obligatory system based on ideas of capitalism. I try to understand people/owners who don't want to trade... but only I try... What may be more interesting than next unknown releases from other labels? Money which MUST refund our input to issue music? Fuck it.

[Matthias]

why would individual order from me when available through net/direct from label for 50% of my price? I can understand distros don't order anymore...

I think the difference between wholesalecost and retailcost overall is getting smaller and smaller. People tend to order more directly from the labels now? Controversial opinion I suppose, but raise the retailcost and lower the wholesalecost, I say. Shipping etc is insane today, and it should be of the labels interest to get the stuff out there. What we have now is that people rather import an LP from the other side of the world than order the same LP from their regular domestic mailorders, due to it being cheaper in the end. Which I totally understand of course, but the lack of support obviously affects your label/mailorder in the end. And from a personal stance, I much rather ship out 200 copies of an LP to 20 different distributors, than to send out 200 individual orders (like those numbers ever would happen, heh..), even if it then results in less cash in the wallet in the end.

[13]

I hope resurrecting an old thread won't lead to an instant execution by firing squad, but I felt an urge to address the comments Mr. Aspa made on marketing as I think he hit the nail on it's head.

I've witnessed a lot of people feeling super jaded with the current state of underground music. They claim that everything's been done and that all that is left is an endless drome of recycled aesthetics. I beg to differ. There's so much that hasn't been done. So many directions the genre in question can be taken. So many personalities waiting to be expressed. I think it's important to understand that what makes a great artist isn't only a sense of aesthetics. It's the ability to communicate your personality and deepest obsessions. To make your art real and tangible to strangers. Just like a great film strives to make it's illusion real. A place that you'll yearn to visit again and again. This is the key element that most artists lack today. Both in the PE scene and beyond. People have learned how to make a product. Nothing else. It's meaningless. Just like a cross without the myth of the man who died on it. Anyway... That's my 2 cents. Hope things worked out for the author of the thread. If not, so be it.   

[online prowler]

I've just released my first collection of recordings and I've been curious about how I can get wider distribution/listeners. I run everything on my blogspot page and, currently, I really don't care to make any money off of what I do. I just want to make an impact with my project. Any ideas/suggestions?

Thanks.
-Steffan

Hei Steffan, not sure I can add some sensible comment... as I don't know your label or your output. So a bit difficult. Nevetheless, I think a lot of good points have been made. You just have to carve away the irony and satirical wrappings.

I think maybe key issue for you is distribution. At least, this is what I am reading. I'm not sure on what point you are in developing your label, but I suggest start with your closest cadre and build from there. I'm not an expert on this, just thinking pragmatical. Having a grassroots (man, I hate that expression! Somebody, please flame it!) connection is crucial. Don't underestimate your own and your friends social and professional network/relationships. For bigger distribution, I suggest contacing an imprint that you feel have approx same wavelength/bomb crater interest - or a label that seems to be in the same situation as yourselves. Tape for tape trades is the usual law. Just remember, you never get a yes or no if you don't ask. What's the worst thing that can happen? ... you get a no and move on... In the end it boils to: Do your own thing and ignore my suggestion while yo show me the finger!

Keep up the good work.    

[WCN]

I've witnessed a lot of people feeling super jaded with the current state of underground music. They claim that everything's been done and that all that is left is an endless drome of recycled aesthetics. I beg to differ. There's so much that hasn't been done. So many directions the genre in question can be taken. So many personalities waiting to be expressed. I think it's important to understand that what makes a great artist isn't only a sense of aesthetics. It's the ability to communicate your personality and deepest obsessions. To make your art real and tangible to strangers. Just like a great film strives to make it's illusion real. A place that you'll yearn to visit again and again. This is the key element that most artists lack today. Both in the PE scene and beyond. People have learned how to make a product. Nothing else. It's meaningless. Just like a cross without the myth of the man who died on it. Anyway... That's my 2 cents. Hope things worked out for the author of the thread. If not, so be it.   

One of the most poignant things I've read on this board in a while.