Good records released by total dickheads - to buy or not to buy?

Started by Marko-V, December 11, 2016, 08:55:22 PM

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Deadpriest

Jesus Meat are some of the most obnoxious people I've ever known (they keep calling me a paedophile on Twitter) but I'm going to be doing a split release with them at some point haha.
I find the thought that I'm listening to music by an awful person (or people) kind of exciting if the music's dark (and good). I don't really have politics so that's a non issue.
What do people (here) say  about listening to the music of Charles Manson? He was an all round bad fella (rapist, racist, murder, committer of perjury etc) But maybe his music is more of a novelty, it is hardly otherwise much out of the ordinary.
So yeah if the music is good...
Maybe it sounds as though I don't have any moral compass (or just ramble like a shithead), not so!
My book of poetry: http://www.histergrant.com/

bitewerksMTB

The vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill his entire family. He killed a female neighbor, kidnapped her son, took the kid to his house where he killed him then committed suicide. Unfortunately, there was very scant details about the crime.

Choking on chicken bones...


holy ghost

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on December 13, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
The vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill his entire family then get arrested. He killed a female neighbor, kidnapped her son, took the kid to his house where he killed him then committed suicide.

Choking on chicken bones...

My apologies. I deeply apologize for any misconceptions I might have spread about this particular gentleman.

I wouldn't even say it's a matter of being offended (for a Canadian, that's somewhat hard to do despite our liberal nature) but more like "do I want to spend my time and/or money on this individual if I know beforehand they're a total fucking wad?"

Like I'm not going to waste my time on any drama online or in real life and I'll be damned if I get involved with some scumbag musically either. My time is valuable man.....

locustfurnace

Quote from: holy ghost on December 13, 2016, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on December 13, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
The vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill his entire family then get arrested. He killed a female neighbor, kidnapped her son, took the kid to his house where he killed him then committed suicide.

Choking on chicken bones...

My apologies. I deeply apologize for any misconceptions I might have spread about this particular gentleman.

I wouldn't even say it's a matter of being offended (for a Canadian, that's somewhat hard to do despite our liberal nature) but more like "do I want to spend my time and/or money on this individual if I know beforehand they're a total fucking wad?"

Like I'm not going to waste my time on any drama online or in real life and I'll be damned if I get involved with some scumbag musically either. My time is valuable man.....

Some serious slander going on here, the vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill anyone....poor Chris getting an awful slatting here. Now Joe on guitar, well that asshat killed a mom and son and then followed the Dodo into extinction....  :)

holy ghost

Aye mate... the singer from Goatlord has never killed anyone.... that you know of!! Who knows what secrets are buried in the spooky Nevada desert?


bitewerksMTB

Quote from: locustfurnace on December 13, 2016, 10:47:47 PM
Quote from: holy ghost on December 13, 2016, 09:53:45 PM
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on December 13, 2016, 09:28:56 PM
The vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill his entire family then get arrested. He killed a female neighbor, kidnapped her son, took the kid to his house where he killed him then committed suicide.

Choking on chicken bones...

My apologies. I deeply apologize for any misconceptions I might have spread about this particular gentleman.

I wouldn't even say it's a matter of being offended (for a Canadian, that's somewhat hard to do despite our liberal nature) but more like "do I want to spend my time and/or money on this individual if I know beforehand they're a total fucking wad?"

Like I'm not going to waste my time on any drama online or in real life and I'll be damned if I get involved with some scumbag musically either. My time is valuable man.....

Some serious slander going on here, the vocalist from Goatlord didn't kill anyone....poor Chris getting an awful slatting here. Now Joe on guitar, well that asshat killed a mom and son and then followed the Dodo into extinction....  :)

Oh, yeah. Joe with the guitarist. Derp.

http://loudwire.com/goatlord-guitarist-murders-neighbor-her-son-commits-suicide/

NO PART OF IT

I won't give money to labels who rip people off, or have ever been known to rip people off.  
I don't care if they are reformed and repented, they fucked up.
You can't tell me that you believe in your work when you don't believe in getting to the post office within a month.  

One interesting thing about this so-called "fringe community" is that little talk about the nuanced paramaters of art happens, but much talk about being offended happens.  I am unashamedly devout about the art of the thing.  Power Electronics / exploration of power dynamics as art.  Industrial culture as art.  It will be looked at in a similar way as Dadaism when it comes down to it.  I don't think it's pseudo-intellectual to do this.  I think smart people can be raw too.  What often carries over is a sort of half-wit feeling of "show business" in the ability to offend people, and I'm bored by that.  I will support what I think is visionary work, no matter how offensive, to my dying day, but I do draw a line with being bored.  

I won't lie that I do get disappointed when I think someone has true artistic intent and I find out they are simply nefarious, part of the "scene", desperate for attention, or without any of their own ideas.   It still baffles me what inspires certain people to continue, other than some sort of vicarious feeling of being part of some mythical legacy of imaginary cliques.  

That said, an image is subjective.  People couldn't look at Pee Wee Herman the same when Paul Reubens was caught masturbating in a porn theater.  That is a testament to Pee Wee's character.  I personally have been able to separate Paul Reubens from Pee Wee Herman, even as a kid.  I am not a fan per se, but I haven't lost respect for him.  I still don't mind buying records by Gary Glitter, even though he is now in jail for some business he did in Thailand.  Dr. Seuss cheated on his wife when she was dying of cancer.  Do the kids who read it need a disclaimer?  I still think if I had a child, I would let Dr. Seuss into the bookshelf.  These are the most obvious comparisons.   People who excel in any arena are going to be prone to neurosis/neglect in another arena, that is to be expected.  

If someone is a dick to me in person, I won't ever buy their stuff again.  I am not too keen on mollycoddling egomaniacs.  

A caterpillar that goes around trying to rip the wings off of butterflies is not a more dominant caterpillar, just a caterpillar that is looking for a bigger caterpillar to crush him.  Some caterpillars are mad that they will never grow to be butterflies.
 
https://www.nopartofit.bandcamp.com

Theodore

The only thing that would stop me to buy something i like is if i was ripped off by the guy. Even then i would probably buy it but not directly for sure.

Also, i cannot connect with left / anarcho lyrics, i find them offensive haha, but not the usual way. Man, most of them are so silly / naive that if i spend just a little time listening to them my intelligence feels offended. I start to feel stupid cause i am listening these stupidities. When i was 15-16, they were OK, cool. Now ? I just can't. So even if their music is good, lyrics destroy it for me.
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

Andrew McIntosh

Quote from: theotherjohn on December 13, 2016, 09:44:49 PM
I've also since noticed that some people/communities online have started blacklisting or shaming associates/friends of "dickheads", due to them supposedly sympathizing with their beliefs by proxy - for example, people in the online animation community getting worked up by Emily Youcis since becoming vocal of white nationalist beliefs (even though her art has always involved taboos and shocking people), or the recent MDE World Peace controversy. What the internet calls cancer seems to have now evolved into internet leprosy, AIDS or Ebola, and anyone by mere association to the "disease" can become infected. You just know this won't end well for ANYONE.

"Call-out" culture, and what straight edgers used to call "positive peer pressure". Very Stalinist/Maoist stuff. No one wants to be left out. An opportunity for cowards and wimps to feel good about themselves and each other by acting tough online and believing they're speaking truth to power or some other bullshit. In other words - bullying.
Shikata ga nai.

NO PART OF IT

Quote from: Theodore on December 14, 2016, 12:40:00 AM

Also, i cannot connect with left / anarcho lyrics, i find them offensive haha, but not the usual way. Man, most of them are so silly / naive that if i spend just a little time listening to them my intelligence feels offended. I start to feel stupid cause i am listening these stupidities. When i was 15-16, they were OK, cool. Now ? I just can't. So even if their music is good, lyrics destroy it for me.

I agree.  I don't like sanctimonious or proselytizing lyrics.   I think it defeats the purpose and is convoluted beyond words.  Theater is preferable to soap box histrionics. 
A caterpillar that goes around trying to rip the wings off of butterflies is not a more dominant caterpillar, just a caterpillar that is looking for a bigger caterpillar to crush him.  Some caterpillars are mad that they will never grow to be butterflies.
 
https://www.nopartofit.bandcamp.com

Marko-V

Quote from: NO PART OF IT on December 13, 2016, 11:52:30 PM
I won't give money to labels who rip people off, or have ever been known to rip people off.  
I don't care if they are reformed and repented, they fucked up.
You can't tell me that you believe in your work when you don't believe in getting to the post office within a month.  

Reminds me of a recent discussion in Gerogerigegege topic.

Quote from: Theodore on December 14, 2016, 12:40:00 AM
Also, i cannot connect with left / anarcho lyrics, i find them offensive haha, but not the usual way. Man, most of them are so silly / naive that if i spend just a little time listening to them my intelligence feels offended. I start to feel stupid cause i am listening these stupidities.

Unfortunately stupid and naive lyrics is not an exclusive right of anarcho genre. It's all over there swarming like maggots. That's why I like instrumental music more or lyrics sang in completely strange language.

I mostly judge people as being dickheads (or nice people) because I've met them in person, have mutual friends who have experienced trouble with him/her, have witnessed their behaviour live or have been in contact by phone/e-mail/whatever means enough for me to make some sort of opinion. Making judgements only by reading some half-assed interviews, reading lyrics or hearing some statements ripped off from original context is just as silly as judging someone by his fucking haircut.

Basically I am interested in how different political, religious etc. groups and movements manifest their agenda through art (how the things are said is much more interesting than what is being said), so it would be silly just refusing to listen or watch anything that is not my cup of tea. Just out of curiosity and often entertaining myself I'm happy to read Jehovah pamphlets, anarchist cookbooks, listen to Skrewdriver/Chumbawamba/rap/soul/classical all in a row. Would I buy them all... definitely not. I am not trying to be "like-em-all-accept-em-all" type because it would be (considering human nature) impossible, but at least I am curious about different aspects of life and culture. The saddest people are the ones who retreat into their little comfortable bubbles and close the doors and windows to keep everything considered 'strange' outside.

Records flirting with pedophilia and child pornography - no matter what hidden so called 'social commentary' they make (ain't that just a panic excuse when police knock your door?) - is a no-go for me (as being a father of a little girl). I don't buy any of those records - I'd rather put my money somewhere else. I am not getting mental over it or start preaching about it, every grown-up person should use their own heads in thinking what to support and what not. If I really feel like hearing them, I'd rather download/listen them free from the internet so there would be zero £$€ going to artist or label - no regrets. You can call me a pussy or crybaby... a crybaby with money and a freedom to choose on which products to spend it and which products to steal.

Any label or artist publishing controversial material or giving bold statements should at least be prepared that there could be stores which don't take your record for sale, bars which don't give you a chance to play, anonymous hatemail or people who refuse to buy your records for a reason or two. There is no reason to cry over some other crybaby disliking over your aesthetics, that is the price to be paid. Any label/artist can still release whatever they feel like... I mean, we are not living a Nazi Germany, right?

david lloyd jones

Quote from: cantle on December 12, 2016, 05:13:07 PM
Buy- unless it was a personal issue. The sound and whether I like it or not is the only thing that matters rather than the politics of someone you are unlikely to meet....

with so many variables out of individual control, this advice seems best.
don't forget the reverse, maybe the artist, label guy thinks you are an asshole.

Peterson

Quote from: Marko-V on December 14, 2016, 02:16:28 PM
Records flirting with pedophilia and child pornography - no matter what hidden so called 'social commentary' they make (ain't that just a panic excuse when police knock your door?) - is a no-go for me (as being a father of a little girl). I don't buy any of those records - I'd rather put my money somewhere else.

I think most of the panic tends to come from parents who misinterpret or worry a lot about what exactly the content might mean when approaching a record that deals with pedophilia, child pornography, and child abuse. I've seen similar comments on other forums, and mostly it seems like the distinction between a piece of art that's dealing with something controversial and unpleasant and an actual piece of illegal material is a hard line for some to draw. A lot of folks don't want something that even discusses those subject in their house, which is fine, but seems like more of a personal moral preference than avoiding undue police attention.

After all, there is a huge difference between a record and an actual piece of child pornography. One has no real legal repercussions, while the latter obviously does. Personally, I doubt strongly that anyone releasing music dealing with pedophilia or child pornography wants any kind of police attention, and logically, they're not just showing off their illegal collections and making some kind of excuse of a "statement" like you're implying.

But, I'll also say that if you think the police should be knocking on someone's door just for the vaguely sinister artwork of a record, the issue is your definition of what constitutes child porn. And you have a rather wide definition of that, which could be potentially tricky. I have tons of books and films explicitly dealing with medical, sexual, and psychological topics which could fall under your definition, if you're actually thinking that any records dealing with these things are just a front for "when the police knock on your door."

It's fine that you want to take the worst possible interpretation of music that discusses this subject matter, but I think those type of intent readings are basically just short of hysterical. I understand that you are a parent, I'm sure that's difficult, but I doubt owning a Brighter Death Now record would get you in any trouble aside from with your own guilty conscience. I know a couple whom are wonderful parents, yet the mom lent me a copy of Lolita once, should those folks have suspicion cast on them?